Are 4E paladins really credible as tanks?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Let's look at it this way. As opposed to fighters:

Paladins do less damage with their regular attacks, have fewer powers that multi-mark, and have fewer positional manipulation powers.

The biggest problem though, IMO, is that their prime 'tank' ability is not really that big of a threat to monsters after a period of time. Yes, a laser paladin has the opportunity to really put the screws to an opponent who ignores them for the first few levels.

To make things worse, paladins don't get a lot of abilities that actually hold the enemy in place once they get them where they want them. Unyielding Avalanche is one of the best tanking power in the game for fighters. What do paladins get in return?

[fliprushman]

Healing?

[RandomCasualty2]

The healing factor of paladins is basically what makes them good. Without lay on hands, they'd totally suck. Divine challenge is pretty weak, and their powers are nothing special. But they get minor action combat healing, and that's bad ass.

Really, your best defenders in 4E happen to be your clerics, who just undo all the damage the monsters do to them.

[Koumei]

Let's be honest, though, Clerics just win all out. I mean, we have the Beatdown Cleric, which does respectable damage (for 4E anyway) and also makes the rest of the party hit, thus being the best buff-giver and Most Valuable Person. You have the Laser Cleric, who also happens to be good at healing (as a side-effect). I mean, they can even remove diseases without outright killing the host!!!

Once again, the game would not suffer if everyone played a Cleric. I expect the game to later on accept this fact and release feats and shit that allow the four Clerics in a party to appear vaguely different.

...but then again, the kind of stupid fucks playing 4E seriously believe you need one from each of the four arbitrary bullshit categories, and it's impossible to convince them that aspect is wrong - because obviously no aspect of it is wrong, because 4E is perfect and Collins/Mearls are gods.

There should be exceptions to the law that says you can't smack someone upside the head with a blunt object.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The healing factor of paladins is basically what makes them good. Without lay on hands, they'd totally suck. Divine challenge is pretty weak, and their powers are nothing special. But they get minor action combat healing, and that's bad ass.

Okay, but then how do paladins stop enemies from hurting the squishies, which is supposed to be the point of a defender?

Fighters, at least, can do enough damage that ignoring them hurts a fuckton and also get abilities that make it very hard for enemies to just plow through them. On top of that, with a cleric multiclass, they can access their healing surges almost as good as a paladin can.

[RandomCasualty2]

Let's be honest, though, Clerics just win all out.

Yeah, clerics are way better than any other class out there. They've got controller, striker and defender stuff in addition to the rest of the shit they can do.

[Ravengm]

On top of that, with a cleric multiclass, they can access their healing surges almost as good as a paladin can.

with a cleric multiclass

cleric multiclass

multiclass

[RandomCasualty2]

Okay, but then how do paladins stop enemies from hurting the squishies, which is supposed to be the point of a defender?

Well basically they stop their enemies from hurting the squishies by undoing the damage, which is pretty much the same in 4E as preventing it, since combat healing is so awesome. They also have the challenge which does some minor damage, and gives companions an AC boost. If a target ignores the paladin's challenge, then basically the paladin is now doing striker level damage, and can also heal people, which is fairly useful.

But still, nothing beats a cleric in 4E.

[Mole_2]

Healing?

Cos healing raises your threat and when you have enough threat, you pull aggro.
Its even easier if your DM allows you to use a threat meter.
But ours doesnt cos he says its cheating

[Cynic]

Healing? :confused: :tongue:

Cos healing raises your threat and when you have enough threat, you pull aggro.
Its even easier if your DM allows you to use a threat meter.
But ours doesnt cos he says its cheating :(

we're not playing a god damned MMO.

yes, things like aggro and threat have some significance across the range but you can't pull hard and fast rules into the game.

[Koumei]

I don't think 4E is enough like WoW

You make me want to punch you.

[Lago PARANOIA]

we're not playing a god damned MMO.

yes, things like aggro and threat have some significance across the range but you can't pull hard and fast rules into the game

He's fucking you up.

But on a fundamental level, a tank self-healing is a bad idea for drawing aggro. The whole problem why a tank has to deal with 'aggro' in the first place is because they have to convince monsters to attack a character that is hurting them less and his harder to kill.

In an MMORPG, mobs don't distinguish between who's using what healing spells. This is why paladins in FFXI and AFAIK WoW use their healing abilities to draw hate, even though the purpose is self-defeating. Yes, if you go after the squishes the tank can throw out healing spells, but if you turn your attention on the tank then he'll just use the healing spells on yourself. You're still better off going after the squishes.

That's why paladins aren't IMO credible as tanks in the mid and higher levels. Yes, at low levels, an extra guaranteed 8 damage a round is huge, but at later levels they're expected to only dish out about 14-19. That's... pretty fucking pathetic. A fighter's damage falls behind, too, but they still get effects to attack multiple enemies, cause enemies to slow down, and have combat superiority which stops enemies from circumventing them in the first place.

Paladins don't dish out enough retributive damage to make people regret ignoring them and don't have as many effects as fighters or even clerics to stop critters from just running around them.


Ravengm, I know you're laughing at me about the cleric thing and I normally agree that it's a suboptimal choice because you already have healers in the party. Hell, there are magical items in the Adventurer's Vault that make it much easier for healers to do their job.

The point I was trying to make is that fighters, by taking a suboptimal ability set, does nearly everything a paladin can do, but better.

It's sort of like in 3E when we made wizard builds that sworded better than fighters. No wizard would WANT to do that, but if they did, they're just proving that the 3E fighter is a complete joke.

What makes it even funnier is that the 4E fighter is still a joke, comparatively.

[Manxome]

This is why paladins in FFXI and AFAIK WoW use their healing abilities to draw hate, even though the purpose is self-defeating.

My understanding is that Paladins in WoW are subject to a special rule that their healing generates much less threat than exactly the same spell cast by a squishy healer.

But the entire mechanic has essentially nothing to do with actual tactical logic is utterly ridiculous in the first place.