Are battle clerics really that inferior to laser clerics?

[Josh_Kablack]

Here's a funny idea for a 4e cleric "power" build:

Race: Human (elf gives you better stats but costs 2 more feats here)
Stats: Wis 20, Dex 13, everything else whatever
Feats: Warrior of the Wild, Acolyte Power (Crucial Advice), Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training, Skill Training.

Of course, it's really only worthwhile if you have DM who, like Keith Baker, takes the pre-errata skill challenge rules seriously.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm not exactly sure what your build is supposed to do, Josh, or what kind of rhetorical point you're making.



By the way. I noticed that barbarians get some really good daily and encounter powers. When martial power comes out, if there is a better scheme for hooking yourself up with encounter power replenishment I might go with that.

[Username17]

I'm not exactly sure what your build is supposed to do, Josh, or what kind of rhetorical point you're making.

It's trained in all skills so that it can hand out +Wisdom to any skill test that anyone makes, so that your team can insta-win any skill test.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

And since Skills fall off the RNG immediately in 4e, yet 4e combat has been balanced so hard that any build is at best minor tweaking, there's a decent argument that the "power" builds in 4e are going to be skill-optimization builds.

Of course, such an argument presupposes that your DM uses a roughly even (or better) mix of Skill Challenges and Combat Encounters - and that's going to vary drastically from group to group. (as will the actual DCs and rules used for Skill Checks and challengers)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Considering that there aren't even rules for crafting in 4th Edition, I doubt that skill challenges were meant to be a big part of the rules.

I mean, how could they be in a game where you can't even do an A-Team Montage?

[Josh_Kablack]

Lago, your problem there is that you are reading the rules as they are written, instead of paying attention to what Keith Baker says on his blog

As designed, skill challenges are a significant part of the system

[Josh_Kablack]

Here's my take on the Righteous Brand Pit-Fighter, looking at 16th level where dirty fighting first kicks in.

Human
starting
Strength 20
Con 13
Dex 8 (*arguably you should switch Dex and Con and go for an agile armor build, but I chose not to - if you do this you want to look at shield specialization and heavy blade opportunity at epic levels)
Int 10
Wis 13
Cha 10

16th level
Strength 24
Con 14
Dex 9
Int 11
Wis 17
Cha 11

Feats: Class: Ritual Caster, H: WP: Bastard Sword, 1: Student of the Sword, 2: Action Surge,4: Toughness, 6: Human Perseverance, 8: Armor Prof Scale* 10: Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades, 11: Action Recovery, 12: Back to the Wall 14: Power Attack 16 Combat Anticipation

Cleric Class
Pit Fighter Paragon Path: Armor Optimization (+1 to AC with armor), Extra Damage Action (add half level to any standard action attacks in round when you spend action point) Dirty Fighting (add wisdom to weapon damage)
at will: Righteous Brand, Sacred Flame, and something useless
enc Class feature: Channel Divinity (divine favor or turn undead), Healing Word x3
enc1: healing strike
daily1: avenging flame
util2: cure light
enc3: split the sky
daily5: weapon of thegods
util 6: Cure Serious Wounds
enc7: strengthen the faithful
daily 9: divine power
util 10: mass cure light
enc13: inspriring strike
daily 15: holy spark
util 16; astral shield
PF enc 11: All bets are off
PF Util 12: Deadly payback

gear you want: stuff that grants to hit bonuses or stuff that keeps you up longer the better to set up Righteous brand with.

+X bastard sword (inescapable is nice here, since that can add more stacking)
+X armor (either get one of the dual resistance armors or salubrious or meliorating may be worthwhile)
+X javelin (whatever, you just need a strength attack for range)
+X holy symbol (fist of kord can be used in conjunction with Sacred Flame and a bag of rats to push your theoretical maximum to hit bonus even further)
Other: anything with resistance or damage reduction or status immunities, bag of expendable pets and or mount with lowest reasonable reflex you can get (for sacred flame save/bonus granting)

Really you just clank around hitting things with righteous brand and healing word-ing to make sure that you and the other melee damage engines stay up to capitalize on it, but you have one big combo that you can run variations on when you need to hit the grand slam yourself:

Your big combo:
round N-whatever: Weapon of the gods active
round N-1: sacred flame your horse or gerbil or something, move into position, hopefully adjacent to a wall, provoke opportunity attacks, if hit, trigger deadly payback
round N+1: once in position use action point for All Bets Are Off, call in student of the sword and divine fortune bonuses
at 16th level, assuming +4 widgets, this is a +33 attack (+8 level + 7 strength +3 proficiency +4 enhancement, +1 wall, +3 action surge, +4 Fist of Kord, +2 payback, +1 student of the sword, +1 divine fortune) vs AC. The initial attack deals 2d10+32+1d6
(+1 versatile +7 str + 3 wis +2 focus, +4 enhancement +1 wall +4 fist of kord +2 payback +8 extra damage action + weapon of the gods)
Student of the Sword and divine fortune are per roll, but Action Surge is per action, and as per the power the secondary attack is at +2, so it's made with the same bonus and the opponent now is minus 2 to ac (since weapon of the gods hit)
The damage on this is going to be arguable, since the power has the WEAPON keyword, but the damage is not a [W] damage. Based on page 55 "Accessories" I assume everything applies (the weapon focus feat damage is the only really arguable part) - and this assumption means the secondary attack deals 1d6+1d6+32.

Now you take your normal standard action and fire off an Arc of the Righteous
Action Surge no longer applies, so you'd only have a +28 to hit, except you just dazed the target, so it's a +30 (BTW they are still -2 to AC), all your damage adds do still apply so you deal another 2d10+32+1d6, then you get to make a secondary attack, which can be against the initial target, for another +30 to hit and another 1d10+32+1d6.

Total Cost of combo: 3 rounds of action, suffering one hit, 1d6+7 damage to your horse, burning one Action Point and two daily powers, burning 4 encounter powers.
Total effect of Combo: one ally makes save, one enemy takes 5d10+5d6+128 damage and is dazed and -2 to AC for until the end of your next round.

Looking at level-appropriate critters, you're going to hit on no higher than a 3, you will kill most non-elite monsters with that, bloody most elites and half-bloody most solos. If you need more damage or have an additional bonus (like flank) you should also power attack. Of course the real beauty is that the dailies are very optional there - you can take slightly worse numbers and just expend encounter powers and an action point. Also nice that the final attack can be directed at another enemy if the you finish the first one.

Advancement beyond 16th is pretty straightforward: Go Demigod for the extra stats, increase Str and Wis whenever you can, take the Str-based cleric power at each level, and ignore the epic feats unless you went for the agile armor build.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Re-visiting my razor cleric build...

For the epic tiers, I'm going to break with tradition and go with the epic destiny that's been maligned here before: The Eternal Seeker.

Bear with me, folks.

Add these things to my build:

You want a Violet Solitaire. For those of you without Adventurer's Vault, once per encounter when you score a critical hit you get another action point. You also want Frost Gloves, also from the Adventuring Vault.

For my build... get a Withering Rapier, a Reckless Spiked Shield (or dagger if you can't spare the feats), and discount Bloodclaw Gauntlets.

Get the feats Epic Resurgence and Triumphant Attack

Pick up these powers via your epic destiny:

Ranger 23: Cloak of Thorns
Ranger 29: Follow-Up Blow
Swordmage 22: Giant's Might (or get Spellscarred 22: Donning the Mudflesh if you have someone to regularly provide power bonuses, like a Warlord)
Barbarian 27: Hurricane of Blades (!!)

You can forgo grabbing Seal of Binding if you want to. I wouldn't, that power is complete awesome, especially with Donning the Mudflesh.


Typical tactics:

Activate Follow-Up Blow, open with Hurricane of Blades, which has a chance of giving you up to 12 attacks as an opener! On the very high likelihood that you scored a critical hit, use Epic Resurgence to pick up Hurricane of Blades again. Then use the action point from your Violet Solitaire and re-use Hurricane of Blades again.

Since you're an epic seeker, you get two standard actions again next turn. Open with Righteous Wrath of Tempus then Rain of Blows, for a potential of 8 attacks. For your second standard action, use Rain of Blows again for another potential of 8 attacks.

So, get that? Two rounds into the fight, and you're getting anywhere from a bare minimum of 14 to a maximum total of 40 attacks!

ALTERNATIVELY

If you didn't manage to score a critical hit in the first round of combat, which is quite possible, don't despair yet.

Next turn, use Righteous Wrath of Tempus and then open with Rain of Blows. You should almost definitely get a hit, which will be critical. Your Violet Solitaire activates, which means that you should fucken use your action point right meow. Steel Blitz activates, pick up Rain of Blows. Epic Resurgence Activates, pick Hurricane of Blades. During your extra standard action, use Hurricane of Blades again.

Then after that, use Rain of Blows. Same volume of attacks, only this took three rounds.

And the best part about this combo? The most resources you used is a daily. And the funny thing is, with the way actions point work, you won't have to worry about being caught with your pants down!

Between fights, use your Veteran's Armor(s) to replenish your Follow-Up Blow Daily. If you're out of Veteran's Armors, spam Crescendo Sword until you get it back again.

By my calculations, assuming a 'standard' 5 encounter workday, you'll get to use this combo on all five encounters. You start out with Follow-Up Blow. Between encounters 1 and 2, you use your original action point on a Veteran's Armor again to get Follow-Up Blow. When you're done with encounter 2, you'll get an action point. That goes into a spare suit of Veteran's Armor again, for encounter number 3. For encounter 4, use Crescendo Sword to get Follow-Up Blow, and then tear up some enemy ass again. For encounter 5, fuel your fifth and final Veteran's Armor with the action point you get from completing a second milestone.

Of course, you'll have gotten two extra magical item uses out of this. I'd personally be itching to use them on my frost gloves, but Power Jewels are cheap as free. So if you're unlucky enough to not be able to own a tarrasque's face off with your attacks, keep replenishing your Rain of Blows.

If you're having trouble landing blows, which I find that hard to believe since you're using a Withering Weapon and you have Veteran's Armor, I heartily recommend using Weapon of the Gods and/or Giant's Stance.

If you're not having trouble landing blows, if you're getting tired of doing your best impersonation of Roranoa Zoro, you could pick Donning the Mudflesh instead and activate Seal of Binding after whipping out Holy Wrath.

[Orion]

This all assumes four attacks per round with Rain of Blows which seems clearly incorrect...

[Lago PARANOIA]

This all assumes four attacks per round with Rain of Blows which seems clearly incorrect...

That's what the Withering Weapon and opening with Hurricane of Blades is for.

[erik]

This all assumes four attacks per round with Rain of Blows which seems clearly incorrect...

Why, has it finally been errata'd?