ah, my kingdom for a life's work

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Would you be interested in a game that models horror movies?

yes
16
64%
yes, but only in playing as the protagonists
1
4%
yes, but only in playing as the antagonist
2
8%
no
6
24%
 
Total votes: 25

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Prak
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ah, my kingdom for a life's work

Post by Prak »

So, I think what I really want to do for a living is be a game designer, as I'm sure the one or two people who pay any attention to my blatherings already knew. But, of course, there are two paths here:

1. Get hired by a game company.
I'm having trouble finding a company I actually want to work for... WotC is full of idiots who don't know what they're doing, White Wolf is... full of idiots who don't know their demographics? plus they got rid of the Old World, and haven't made it easy to obtain the material...
or
2. Make your own company.
difficult, both because it requires at least some money, and because the mass of gaming companies that currently exist makes it difficult to stand out, but honestly the better option, imho
Now, as I said, starting one's own company is my preferred option, but I need a magnum opus, or at least a good opener.

I'm thinking of doing up a game system that can actually model horror movies, unlike, say, d20(Exhibits A & B: heroes of horror, OGL Horror) or storyteller(Exhibits C through, what, L?) or ICE(Incredibly Complicated and Expensive, or so I hear), or Palladium(yeah...).

What I think this system needs to be able to do is:
  • Model survival horror where the protagonists are weak/normal (Halloween, Friday the 13th)
  • Model survival horror where the protagonists are exceptional (From Dusk til Dawn)
  • Allow play of both the protagonists and antagonists of horror movies
  • Allow the Director1 to build a movie's2 monster quickly and easily, and not take 3 hours for the players to make their characters, whether playing protagonists or antagonists.
  • model the various aptitude levels of different protagonists (normal, exceptional, enhanced, etc.)
  • anything else?
I'm thinking that, even though horror movies have only a slightly lower fatality rate than Lovecraft Mythos games, that I will integrate an experience system, especially needed for franchises, where it's expected that at least one person lasts from one movie to the next. I've been toying with the idea of tying some xp gain to the Rules of Horror Movies, and I think I like the idea that each player has a pool of xp at the start of each game, and each time they break a rule(for example, spliting off from the group), they loose one of these points, if they die, well, they obviously don't get their xp, if they get harmed, but survive, they don't get the point back, but if they survive the "infraction" unscathed, they get 2 points back. This both ties it to genre conventions, and encourages going along with some of those conventions, or rather, gives the players incentive to do so, at the risk of losing points.

what do others think?

1- GM
2- term for a discrete story, ie, adventure. incidentally, I'll use franchise instead of campaign.
Last edited by Prak on Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Re: ah, my kingdom for a life's work

Post by Bigode »

Prak_Anima wrote:So, I think what I really want to do for a living is be a game designer, as I'm sure the one or two people who pay any attention to my blatherings already knew. But, of course, there are two paths here:
You're still at the part where the 2 paths are the same, since for you the next step's "think before writing and learn to handle criticism". Anyway, given that there are other companies besides the "big 2" (I hear WW's sinking, though), and you're not especially likely to do anything better than D&D 3E (not meant to be specifically about you; few people would've been able to do it wholecloth), I actually find it hard to see why you'd fail to meet someone to your taste, and, after enough effort's put in, they should be interested ... (even though the second part's not what you actually asked, the first might well be more important when starting something, since it'll have to be good enough to call attention).
Last edited by Bigode on Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

I'm trying to decide on the base mechanic, beyond the base mechanic of roleplaying in general, of course.

I'm not sure what size die I should use, or what the target number should be, but of course the standard mechanic is (die roll)+(natural aptitude)+(learned attribute)+(equipment, if applicable) against a fairly standard target number. I'm thinking a qualities/drawbacks system could work nicely.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

You really have to be careful about XP in this genre. I mean, even though the last movie's protagonist usually improves in a couple of ways (knows what's going on when the killer/monster returns, is better at fighting the killer/monter), fighting the antagonist has to remain scary even for characters with high XP. In order to pull it off, you'd need to have either very slow XP acquisition or an incredibly slow power curve, or both. The danger is that if you actually make an XP system that keeps the protagonists within the genre's power level, a lot of people might ask what's the point of having this XP system.
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Post by Prak »

good point. well, what about the basic premise of tying xp to the rules of horror movies, how does that sound? I can play with the numbers, and implementation, but I want to know how the concept sounds.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

For Die size, use the d6.

In multiples perhaps, but really, if you've got a game that you want people to pick up easily, so the d6 is your bes bet since it's so bloody common.

Even among gamers it's usually the most common dice (swifty followed by the d20, and the d10 I notice; people don't usually have the other sizes in large numbers). Meaning that even gamers will appreciate you using a dice that they have a lot of.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Prak_Anima wrote:good point. well, what about the basic premise of tying xp to the rules of horror movies, how does that sound? I can play with the numbers, and implementation, but I want to know how the concept sounds.
I don't know. It might work, but I don't know all the potential benefits and problems right off the top of my head.


Oh, it just occurred to me: since you mentioned the Cthulu mythos, have you read any Call of Cthulu rulebooks? Even though it's not the kind of slasher horror you seem to be going for, some of the issues might be similar. If we know how Chaosium handled some of these issues, we might be able to 1) decide what's good, bad, or retarded about their approach, and 2) decide how much of the good stuff applies to other subgenres of horror.
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Post by erik »

Savage Worlds might lend itself well to horror genre.

A d6TN5 type also (like the Arkham Horror board game series).

You might do very well to try and adapt the Arkham Horror board game system into being a RPG. That's something I've been dabbling with as a pet project on the back burner. Since I've become enamored with Savage Worlds, I've started to attempt to convert it into a d6TN5 format while keeping their things that I like. Eventually I may have it modified enough that I couldn't be easily accused of stealing anyone's system.

I would poo-poo trying to make d20 into a horror genre like you're planning. Maybe if it used a True 20 system without hit points. Hit points and Horror don't mix nicely.
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Post by Talisman »

I was thinking of just such an RPG tonight. I would want one that could model a variety of horror movies, from the new, truly scary ones to the olf Killer Shrews and the like...where you have archetypes like the Distressed Damsel and the Plucky Kid and the Man of Science.

Not sure how any of this would work for a campign, though...horror movies are by nature episodic at best. A character who learns the monster's weakness has to face a different horror every week. I think it would work best when designed for one-shots or mini campaigns, rather than D&D's yearlong campaign style.

In regards to XP, perhaps the XP system would allow you to improve your PC during that movie, but not for the future. Thus, if you're fighting zombies you earn Plot Points and spend some on the Blow to the Head combat feat, and others on increasing your Occult Lore [Voodoo] skill. Assuming you survive to fight the werewolves next week, your stats are back to normal - zombie-fightin' knowledge doesn't help against werewolves anyway.
I've been toying with the idea of tying some xp gain to the Rules of Horror Movies, and I think I like the idea that each player has a pool of xp at the start of each game, and each time they break a rule(for example, spliting off from the group), they loose one of these points, if they die, well, they obviously don't get their xp, if they get harmed, but survive, they don't get the point back, but if they survive the "infraction" unscathed, they get 2 points back. This both ties it to genre conventions, and encourages going along with some of those conventions, or rather, gives the players incentive to do so, at the risk of losing points.
Instead of starting with a pool of XP and losing points when you foul up, I would start with 0 XP and gain XP when you specifically adhere to a Rule of Horror - gain double if doing so is in-character and against your best interests. This basically encourages roleplaying. When you reach a Plot Coupon you can spend XP (see above).

I also support any rules that bring mechanics to cliches of the horror genre, such as the monster's Offscreen Teleportation power, Sex Equals Death, the Inept Authorities, etc.

Finally, recommend each player controlling a stable of 3-5 characters, not all of whom need be on-screen at the same time. One of the tropes of the horror genre is that Anyone Can Die (except the blonde, virginal cheerleader) - but it's hard as hell to run a game if you kill off your PCs, and hard to instill that necessary tension by killing off random NPCs. Maybe the player could have one "main" PC, and if he dies, another gets "promoted." Thus, you can raise the tension by killing PCs and depriving the players of resources. This also allows you to make the monster tougher than otherwise - in a 4-player game, it might kill 8-10 PCs before the survivors bring it down!

Very interested in this.
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Post by JonSetanta »

My answer to the survey: Don't Know If Want.

I'll say yes, but only in moderation. Also, sometimes I'd want to be Dracula or Frankenstein's monster (or similar), and sometimes I'd want to kill those gits.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

...

I just realized that this idea is Betrayal at House on the Hill.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

sigma999 wrote:My answer to the survey: Don't Know If Want.

I'll say yes, but only in moderation. Also, sometimes I'd want to be Dracula or Frankenstein's monster (or similar), and sometimes I'd want to kill those gits.
Actually, one of the listed goals is to allow you to play either the protagonists or the monsters.
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Post by Username17 »

I definitely think that d6, TN 5 is the way to go for horror. Also, I agree that WoD has huge problems and that people should be able to play monsters or main character humans. One of the projects I have on the back burner is much along those lines. And while I have a fair bit more of it literally on some scratch paper in my room, you might be able to go somewhere with the stuff that's nearly formatted:

SR4: World of Darkness

A Complete Overhaul of World of Darkness material using SR4 rules.

The World of Darkness is Overcrowded
You can't have been Rasputin, our guys were Rasputin!

Let's face it: the World of Darkness is cluttered. oWoD has way too many secret groups and supernaturals, and the nWoD is no better. With each group having their own sub-groups and politics and multiple groups of antagonist supernaturals it gets explosively, exponentially more complicated with the addition of every book, and no one knows how it works. That's not good for a political game. The players need to know at least enough of what's going on that they can advance agendas and make plans – otherwise there aren't any political maneuverings; it all devolves rapidly into hack-n-slash or just plain slash.

The concept is that you are a classic Universal Studios Monster and you engage in narrative driven dramatic role playing of both horror and intrigue. This is essentially impossible when there are too many world running conspiracies to keep track of or when people are going all Dragon Ball Z on things right next to you.

So we're paring things down. A lot. We don't have, need, or even want a bajillion clans of vampires, or fifteen tribes of werewolves. There should be few enough flavors of things that all the players can remember what the differences between them are. Ideally, people should be able to play whatever supernatural guys they want, sort of like the League of Extraordinary Gentleman, in practice you have to put explicit limitations on what is part of the story or things get all weird. Like with Martian invasions and stuff. A story that doesn't have specific exclusions does not truly have any specific inclusions. It's not really a story at all, it's a mess.

It is important to note that you can't take everything from myth and legend and cram it into a story. I'm not saying that your story will be completely incoherent, although of course it will be. I'm saying that you are literally incapable of doing that. The Vampire Book is an encyclopedia of just vampire lore from various cultures and it is literally over nine hundred pages long. And we're not talking about character backgrounds or rules text or any of the other crap that we know eats up word count like you wouldn't believe. We're talking about just a bare list of facts by mythical origin. So it is imperative not only that you acknowledge that you're going to have to cut things down to a manageable amount, but also that you establish specifically what is off limits and what's fair game.

A Life in Horror: The Good and The Bad
Interesting fact: The Final Girl trope emerged shortly after young women became a major component of horror movie attendees.

Life in the World of Darkness is actually pretty horrible, and extremely dangerous. Life in the World of Darkness is life in a horror movie. Or rather, it is a world where all the horror movies are real. This means that body counts are extremely high, and it is very difficult to get help. This is good news if you happen to be a vampire, but really bad for anyone looking for a life of vaguely normal properties. Here are some important things to remember:
  • The Police are no help at all. Heavily infiltrated by cultists and secret societies, the police in the World of Darkness are astoundingly ineffective. Sure they will occasionally bring down a killer, but the vast majority of crimes go unsolved. Many crimes don't even get investigated, especially if something supernatural is afoot.
  • Telecommunications are Shoddy Sat Phones aren't available in the World of Darkness. Cellphone coverage cuts out constantly at inopportune moments. Regular telecommunication wires go down frequently and are out for days at a time. The inability to get a call out of a building or town isn't unusual, that kind of thing happens a lot in the World of Darkness.
  • People Don't Travel Much It's not weird for people to not know what goes on in the next town over in the World of Darkness. Things are just more dangerous, and people keep to themselves more.
Keep this in mind when you're planning your nights in the World of Darkness. Life is less connected to other life in the World of Darkness and it is much easier for dangerous elements to thrive in such an environment.

People in Horror: Extras and Luminaries
Do not run upstairs! There is no exit upstairs!

Remember that in horror movies there are a lot of people who serve no real purpose save to be eaten by the monsters. We call them Extras even if they happen to get some lines. These people may be strong, or smart, or beautiful, but ultimately they are doomed. If they get bitten by a zombie they will turn into one of the shambling hordes that our heroes must eventually chop through with a chain saw. They will not get cured and will not turn into leaders of the walking dead. Game mechanically, these people have no Edge score. If they turn into a supernatural creature of some kind they will become a Spawn. These hapless victims will not become the next Dracula, they will always be the horde vampires in From Dusk til Dawn. They will not become Shelly Winters or Sheila, they will join the hordes of deadites and get cleaved through with fire.

On the other side of the coin, there are people in the horror genre who rise to the occasion. Whether they are introduced as bad ass adventurers like Van Helsing or Rick O'Connell, or are “normal people” who rise to the occasion like Meg Penny or Ash, these people have a certain spark of bad assery in them regardless of what they happen to be doing. They are Luminaries, and they have Edge. If they become Supernaturals they become the real deal. They may turn evil but they will still have lines and character development.

This is why characters will occasionally fight their way through a horde of zombies (who are of course all ex-humans) just to try to get a cure for one woman who happens to have been turned into a zombie. It isn't that they've completely lost perspective, it's that the transformation into a monster is a one way trip for absolutely everyone except a reasonably small number of luminaries. You actually can “save” Alice or Sheila if they get transformed into the living dead. There's literally nothing you can do for the rest of the people except shoot them in the face.

The Four Worlds
Things are crawling in all over the place these days.

A very common trope in horror is the inclusion of additional worlds that are full of terror and danger. This is very useful, since of course having an extra world around allows you to fit things into the narrative that would be otherwise very difficult to fit into the Earth. Demon armies, forgotten cities, and strange and deadly plants can be piled to the sky and beyond without otherwise upsetting the world provided that they were never in the world in the first place. Furthermore, the idea that monsters can come in sideways is by itself a wonderfully useful notion for the horror genre, because it severely undermines the concept of safety in a fortress or locked room.

That being said, it is also true that there are a lot of alternate worlds to be had in various stories. Too many alternate worlds to be anything vaguely approaching something workable. And so it is that
  • The Dark Reflection The best rendition of the Dark Reflection is probably in Silent Hill. It's a world very much like our own but scoured with demonic powers. Ash falls from the sky like rain and everything looks abandoned or scorched. Demons prowl the Dark Reflection.
  • The Gloom The best rendition of the Gloom is of course in Nightwatch, which even calls the place that. It's a cold and oppressive world where darkness presses insistently upon the light and heat of travelers. Powers of death leak in from every crevice and extinguish fires and the lives of small animals. Blood hungering insects and ghosts scour the Gloom.
  • The Wilds Think of a combination of the deadly dreamworlds of Nightmare on Elm Street and the fantastic realms of Narnia. This is where dreams and fairies go, but since this is the World of Darkness the dreams are often as not inspired by Freddy and the fairies are more likely to be Warwick Davis than Tumnus.
Basic Mechanics

When you perform an action, you roll a pile of d6s called a dicepool. Dice which come up as a 5 or 6 are hits, and dice which come up as 1s are botches. A task will normally require a number of hits to succeed equal to the Threshold, and any hits gained in addition to that are Net Hits. If half the dice come up botches, then you get a Botch Effect, and if you get half or more botches and no hits that's a Critical Botch. If you get 4 or more net hits, you get a Critical Success. This basic terminology will be most familiar to those who have played Shadowrun, but it is really not much different from the Storytelling System (save that it uses d6s rather than d10s).

Dicepools: Your dicepool is generally speaking Attribute + Skill + Equipment. If you are using Magic, you will often be able to add Discipline to that as well. As such, it is expected that supernatural critters will roll more dice on actions that their powers apply to than normal humans do.

Basic Attributes: Physical, Mental, and Social
  • Physical Attributes:
  • Strength
  • Agility
    Mental Attributes
  • Intuition
  • Logic
    Social Attributes
  • Charisma
  • Willpower
  • Why no Body or Reaction? Those familiar with the SR4 system will be quick to note that the attributes of Body and Reaction have been omitted. That is not an accident. Those attributes are used by almost no skills and primarily exist to add extra granularity to combat. Combat is hopefully not the point of most World of Darkness games, and in any case the granularity of “normal humans” in combat isn't even especially desirable. Folding Body into Strength and Reaction into Agility makes for a simpler system while losing relatively little. After all, granularity is being added back into the system with the physical disciplines that are in the hands of many player characters.
Special Attributes: Edge, Magic, Power

Edge in WoD is structurally similar to Edge in SR4. You can spend it to reroll dice that fail or to purchase a number of dice equal to your Edge attribute to improve any test. Edge refreshes between sessions.

Power in WoD is a parallel attribute similar to Edge. Rather than being spent on any test, Power is spent to activate specific supernatural abilities that a character might have. Power by itself doesn't do anything and does not refresh. Characters will have things to do with their Power and ways to refresh it if they are a supernatural creature.
  • For example: Genevra is a vampire with the discipline of Celerity. As a vampire, she can spend Power points to increase her Strength for a scene. In addition, she can spend a Power point to take extra actions during a scene with her Celerity discipline. Because she is a vampire, she can refresh her power points by drinking blood from other people through their necks.


Magic in WoD functions much as it does in SR4. When sorcerous powers are employed, one uses the Magic attribute to determine the base dice pool. All supernatural creatures have a Magic of at least 1.

Grade When a character's powers increase they may get a special attribute called grade. This works similarly to SR4 Initiation Grades, save that Grade is added to the limits of every attribute, basic and special (including Power).

The Playable Types

The Universal Monsters have a lot of stuff in there which is not really appropriate. Sure, Lon Chaney is full of awesome and I have no problem watching his movies, but neither the Phantom of the Opera nor the Hunchback of Notre Dame is especially supernatural. They are both just really creepy guys. On the other end of the spectrum, the existence of space aliens really harms the whole eldritch intrigue thing. So while This Island Earth is a good movie and part of the official pantheon, the Metalunans and Zagons are not going to be part of this. At all.

Which leaves Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster, Gillman, the Mummy, and the Wolfman – who all appear in the classic The Monster Squad, and the Evil Wizard, the Invisible Man and the Mole Man who don't. It is of note however that Dracula, Frankenstein's Monster, the Wolfman, and the Invisible Man all appear in the mandatory movie Abbot and Costello Meet Frankenstein, and there is of course Evil Wizard and Mummy in the substantially less mandatory Abbot and Costello Meet the Mummy. It seems clear that life would go on without Mole Men; but what heck?
  • Vampires
    An eternity of melancholy and betrayal is, after all, an eternity.
    The Vampire is a rockstar of the living dead. They drink blood, live forever, and look great in black. Vampires are emotionally attenuated individuals who have to consume metaphorical life in the form of actual human blood. They are parasites whose very existence is a powerful metaphor for the consumptive and conflict-torn nature of the world.
    Exemplars: Dracula. Did we mention Dracula? I mean sure, we can talk about the vampires from Blade or Buffy, and we will even. But all Vampire mythos in the modern world always comes back to Dracula, because he is that awesome.
  • Prometheans
    Once created, a work has a life of its own.
    A Promethean is an artificial person. Created by unwise science, magic, or both, each Promethean is a race of one. They have no peers and no possibility of children. Every Promethean is created knowing that their entire people dies with them. It is a lonely and frightening existence.
    Exemplars: Frankenstein's Monster, Rotwang's Robot, Loew's Golem
  • Lycanthropes
    Even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night...
    may become a wolf when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is bright

    A Lycanthrope is someone who is cursed to transform into a rampaging beast when the moon is full or they get excited. There is plenty of mythological basis for shapeshifters who are born with the ability to turn into animals or who have attained the magic powers to do so to protect mankind, but they aren't normally figures from horror stories, and have no place in the World of Darkness.
    Being a Lycanthrope means that you are a danger to people you love and the furniture around you. You can unleash the beast to rip things to pieces, but lycanthropy is a curse and it is not generally very fun.
    Exemplars: John Talbot, Irena Dubrovna, Yuki Sohma
  • Witches
    Bubble Bubble.
    Witches are people who have learned Magic. In a horror setting, magic is in almost all cases bad. The genre is pretty light on Glinda the Goods and Merlins. Magicians are generally vindictive cackling gypsies, satanic sorcerers, mysterious strangers, and a myriad of other titles both hackneyed and terrifying. They spend a lot more time sacrificing people to gods ancient and evil and a lot less time preparing good children to go to the ball than magicians in other genres.

    Magic that humans can use comes from three sources in the World of Darkness. There is the magic of Death, which is evil. There is Devil magic, which is evil. And finally there is the twisted sorceries of the Fairies, and that's evil as well. It's not that you can't do good as a magician, you totally can. It's just that the magic itself is evil and using it is dangerous even if you are the virtuous Chandu. The horror movies of the 30s didn't distinguish particularly between people from India and China (both were in “The East”), and we hearken to that slightly by leaving all traditions of magic as variations of the basic three. While a character may well be a voodoo death magician or an Aztec or Egyptian death magician, the magical set is all the same. Death magic is death magic whether you call upon bones with Chinese runes or African chants.

    An important thing to realize is that The Mummy is actually a Witch. That's just how they do immortality. Sometimes it's an immortality where you do evil magic and you look like a normal person (see the 1933 or 1999 The Mummy) and sometimes you look like a crazy corpse in special bandages (like in Bubba Hotep). It really depends. Either way, if you want to be a leftover from Egypt or Aztlan you are a Witch (or a Vampire of course). However, and this is important, the Mummies from the middle Mummy movies such as The Mummy's Ghost and... sigh... The Mummy's Curse where the Mummy lurches around and smashes things – that Mummy is a Promethean instead, so pick a schtick and go with it.
    Exemplars: Imhotep, Roxor, Hjalmar Poelzig, Chandu
  • Transhuman
    Just a scientific experiment. To do something no other man in the world had done.
    Humans do not, in general, have supernatural powers. However, in the horror genre there are a number of people who experience an event which changes them irrevocably into something different. Something more. These people generally go stark raving mad, and in not very long. The certainty that they are no longer human causes them to lose sight of human priorities, human morality. While they have become something more, they are also something less.

    The transformational event can be scientific or magical. Or a bit of both. A Transhuman always has an “origin story” which is to some degree unique. The Invisible Man took scientific chemicals. Anck Su Namun simply woke up one day and realized that she is the reincarnation of an Egyptian princess. Ayesha stepped into the mystical flame of life. Whatever the event was, it was the last thing that he or she did as a human, and the reality of that fact is as destructive to the self as the subsequent revelations of the magical world and the horrors which inhabit it.

    Exemplars: The Invisible Man, Mr. Hyde, Anck Su Namun, Ayesha
  • Leviathan
    His face was fish-like.
    Supposedly in pre-Sumerian times there was a great mother of monsters. Her name was Echidna. Or Tiamat. Or Vritra. It's not really that important what her name was, because she was killed by a powerful human sorcerer about 4000 BCE. And most of her monstrous brood is gone as well, but not all of it. Some of them interbred with humans and hid their lineage in the darkest corners of the world. They hid from the world of men for millennia, some lurking in darkness and plotting revenge and others merely living their own lives – the ancient conflict long forgotten.

    But that's not really possible now. Things are modern, and there is nowhere to hide. Those who carry the taint of Echidna's spawn in their ancestry or are cursed with the taint during their lives are both hunted and feared. They are destructive, and eating their flesh can make you live forever. Of course, eating their flesh makes you like them, and puts you into the same danger. But hey, immortality.

    In the World of Darkness these creatures often hang out at the edges of society – places which while nominally explored aren't actually watched very carefully.
    Exemplars: The Creature from the Black Lagoon, Mole Man, Robert Olmstead
The Non-Playable Types

Not only must we make explicit what appears on the player's side, we also need to decide ahead of time what is around, supernaturally speaking in the world. Many people protest this. If they want to have unicorns show up for a storyline, why shouldn't they, as the storyteller, just do that? The answer is that in a cooperative storytelling game, the players need some sort of ground state to tell their own back stories and to make plans for future intrigue. Whether the character knows that such and such a creature exists or such and such a world spanning organization is up to its evil schemes, the player needs to at the very least have access to that information. And while it may seem like that would spoil surprises – and it does sometimes – in a much more important way it prevents narrative dissonance. Narrative dissonance appears in cooperative storytelling games much the way continuity errors appear in horror films. And while it is certainly jarring to watch the part in Leprechaun where they drive off in the second car despite the fact that they had earlier lamented being stranded when the first car wouldn't start – it is still a movie and thus the plot (such as it is) just keeps rolling along whether you notice the discrepancy or not. In a cooperative storytelling game however, such an event would just crash everything to a halt. The players and the storyteller would have to sit down and work something out, because they are all imagining the world together and there is no “next scene” until everyone gets their imaginations working together.
  • Zombies
    Brains!
    Zombies are the result of evil magic or super science which transforms dead bodies into lurching, brain eating monsters. Zombies hunger for the living and have a tendency to rampage constantly. Some zombies are fast, some are slow. Some can figure out doorknobs and others can't. But they hunger for the living. Zombie spawn can create new zombie spawn just by killing extras, so zombie outbreaks can get really big, really fast.
    Exemplars: Shelly Winters, Sheila, Ed
  • Fey
    Ha! Ha!
    The wilds have portals to fairy realms where horrible blood drinking nature spirits languish. They come to Earth to steal children and murder people for their own enjoyment. The fey use fairy magics instinctively and often phase between the world of reality and the other world.
    Exemplars: The Leprechaun, Rumplestiltskin, Pan
  • Demons
    My God!
    Not yet, human. Soon... very soon I will be.
    Made entirely of evil magic, the demons are a strange force that seeks to hurt humans and steal souls.
    Exemplars: Wishmaster, Pyramidhead, Azazel
  • Ghosts
    Boo!
    When Luminaries die and they are super pissed about something, they will occasionally linger on after death and become a ghost. Ghosts don't interact properly with physical objects and other people, and in any case are fed only by strong human emotions. So they gradually lose themselves and go batshit crazy, becoming a force that is more and more destructive.
    Exemplars: Slimer, Patrick Swayze, The Mist
  • Giant Animals
    Rar!
    The wilderness of the World of Darkness is a dangerous place with a spectacularly large array of things that can kill you. Man eating beasts of tremendous size roam the woods, the lakes, the swamps, and probably the mountains. Being eaten by sharks, crocodiles, tigers, or whatever is a severe threat. And yes, these super charged zoo rejects have magic powers.
    Exemplars: Jaws, Joe Young, Boa, Python
  • Evil Plants
    Hiss!
    The evil plants grow out of the ground in weird pods that make the soundtrack want to bust out theremin tracks. They grow out of humans an often have mind control and other weird powers. These things might actually be from Space. But since they don't have a civilization or space ships (that we know of), it's not super important.
    Exemplars: Body Snatchers, The Thing, Swamp Thing
The Limits of Magic
She made me into a newt!

Magic in a told story does not need to have explicit limits defined for it because it has implicit limits of whatever it is that magic happens to do in the story. One can assume that many of the things that magic never did in the narrative were actually outside of its capabilities for one reason or another and that it all worked out somehow. A novel or a movie does have to tell you that an evil magic car can't turn into a giant robot, the fact that it doesn't is sufficient for the purposes of the medium. However in a role playing game this is absolutely not the case. Since magic is going to be used in creative, goal oriented ways by multiple story contributors (which is a nice way of saying “people are going to push magic as far as it will go into unintended directions in an effort to gain personal advantage”), it is imperative that what magic is specifically capable (and by extension not capable) of doing be codified.

Magic in the WoD comes in several flavors. The first and most obvious kind is “Inherent Magic.” This is the stuff that supernatural creatures can do just because of what they are. A golem doesn't need to know anything special to be ale to lift and throw a car, it just does it. The fact that it is a golem gives it the inherent magic to have supernaturally powerful strength. All supernatural creatures have some form of inherent magic and they get more of it as time goes on. The next kind of magic to discuss is “Sorcery.” This is a type of magic that is explicitly learned and comes from elsewhere.

Every supernatural type has some inherent magic associated with it. Even though a Transhuman may have been granted all of their power from a mystic ritual that looks suspiciously like Sorcery, once they have attained that status they are able to use many of their abilities without having to remember mystical formulas or speak arcane words. The Invisible Man can fade from view without “doing” anything, and it is this point which makes his signature Invisibility power an inherent rather than sorcerous one.

Magic also falls into one of three categories, regardless of whether it is new or old, inherent or learned. These are Demonic, Dianic, and Death.

Power Schedules
It's five O'clock, time for your ass whupping.

Power Points are regained on a schedule that varies depending on the type of supernatural creature. This means that different characters and enemies will need to do different things to restore their powers, which will occasionally come up as a substantial advantage or disadvantage for one character or another, depending upon the needs of the plot.

Common Power Schedules include:
  • Feeding – Characters who must feed upon mortals to regain power points have obvious advantages and disadvantages. Firstly, they can often schedule their power gains whenever. People are all over the place and you can take time out of your schedule to devour them whenever you aren't pressed for time. Of course, when you're in polite company or you are pressed for time, that may not be possible. Also, leaving a trail of victims is a dangerous thing to do, even if you have the ability to wipe their memories – it angers people. It angers people who are luminaries. All vampire types are on the Feeding schedule.
  • Moon Rise – Characters who regain power points when the moon rises are able to pull fancy time shenanigans where their powers are restored fully in the middle of major scenes. Unfortunately, they also have to wait about an entire day between times when they get their powers back.
  • Ritual – Characters on the ritual schedule have a specific and time consuming action they have to perform in order to regain their power points. This takes substantially longer than feeding on a mortal (usually about 2 hours), but hopefully entails less personal risk than actually victimizing someone. The ritual required varies depending upon the type of character, but usually requires special equipment. For example: a Robot needs to hook themselves up to special equipment in order to literally recharge their batteries while one of the Fallen has to bathe in the magical glow from their artifact.
  • Periodic – Some characters get their power on a continuous basis. These characters are at “full strength” scene after scene. They are narratively tireless, but have reduced power point maximums to compensate.

And then of course, there's a bunch of specific material based on the way magic works and what supernatural societies are assumed to exist. But you get the idea, right?

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Post by JonSetanta »

Absentminded_Wizard wrote: Actually, one of the listed goals is to allow you to play either the protagonists or the monsters.
Yes. I've read it, and that's my desire; to play both sides.. maybe even in the same session but not at the same time.
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Post by erik »

Another good example or guide to playing both sides is the board game Betrayal at the House on the Hill.

Basic premise of the game is that everyone starts out as a normal person with some attributes and is exploring a mansion they are trapped in for some contrived reason, and as they explore and discover things/find useful tools, eventually they trigger enough events that the game changes and one of them is revealed to be an enemy/monster/alien/wtf/etc. The one player and other group split up, read their new objectives which may be to just survive/escape, or alternatively to hunt down and extract brains from the other players.

Anywho, that game gives some good ideas for having players change sides during a one shot scenario, and would be less viable for continuity purposes though not out of the question.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

One of the main issues with Horror movies is that horror monsters actually transcend the rules, at least good ones do.

The fact is that you're going to be playing with PCs who know the rules, and once they know what a given monster can do, that monsters is no longer a horror creature, it's just a conventional creature.

Slasher flicks like Psycho don't convert well to RPGs, because honestly in an RPG when you've got some random killer walking around you just get a weapon and shoot or bash him to death.

The heart of RPG horror is probably going to be fighting puzzle monsters. In other words, it's going to operate more like Nightmare on Elm Street or The Ring than anything else. The problem is that this genre relies entirely on creatures with unique abilities that people don't necessarily know about. You don't know Freddy's weakness going into the game, you just know a few basic things, like he can kill you in your sleep, and you've got to go from there.

The problem is once you convert this to a rulebook. People are instantly going to know what Freddy's weaknesses are, and just do that.

On a side note, I don't really consider playing as the antagonists to be horror. Vampire the Masquerade isn't a horror game. Because quite simply for horror antagonists to be interesting, they have to go beyond being the typical horror movie serial killer. V:tM is a political game where you're constantly working your way through vampire society and trying to make allies, and it plays more like a supernatural themed Mafia game than it does a horror game of any kind. And in no way is that going to resemble horror at all.
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Post by Talisman »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:The heart of RPG horror is probably going to be fighting puzzle monsters. In other words, it's going to operate more like Nightmare on Elm Street or The Ring than anything else. The problem is that this genre relies entirely on creatures with unique abilities that people don't necessarily know about. You don't know Freddy's weakness going into the game, you just know a few basic things, like he can kill you in your sleep, and you've got to go from there.
This is why I think a horror RPG should support the one-shot and the minicampaign more than the epic campaign...each "adventure" centers around defeating a given creature; once you've beaten him, you move on and deal with a different critter. Each monster (or influx of monsters) needs to be virtually unique; otherwise it becomes "Sigh, another vampire...load up the Stake-O-Matic 3000 and the garlic juice watergun and let's go."
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Talisman wrote: This is why I think a horror RPG should support the one-shot and the minicampaign more than the epic campaign...each "adventure" centers around defeating a given creature; once you've beaten him, you move on and deal with a different critter. Each monster (or influx of monsters) needs to be virtually unique; otherwise it becomes "Sigh, another vampire...load up the Stake-O-Matic 3000 and the garlic juice watergun and let's go."
The problem comes once you start writing rules for it. The whole nature and purpose of rules is standardization, however, the goal you're trying to achieve with your horror monsters is uniqueness. And especially given that you probably want to create your own custom horror monsters so the campaign doesn't just involve rehashes of old horror villains the PCs already know, this gets very difficult to make into an actual game, because creatures don't really have any kind of consistent mechanics.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

sigma999 wrote:
Absentminded_Wizard wrote: Actually, one of the listed goals is to allow you to play either the protagonists or the monsters.
Yes. I've read it, and that's my desire; to play both sides.. maybe even in the same session but not at the same time.
I sort of assumed the idea was to let you play either side for a given adventure or campaign, not switch off between them.
RC wrote:The problem comes once you start writing rules for it. The whole nature and purpose of rules is standardization, however, the goal you're trying to achieve with your horror monsters is uniqueness. And especially given that you probably want to create your own custom horror monsters so the campaign doesn't just involve rehashes of old horror villains the PCs already know, this gets very difficult to make into an actual game, because creatures don't really have any kind of consistent mechanics.
It looks like the big problem is going to be that a standard list of archetypes is out. Monsters are going to have to have some sort of point-buy creation system so you can make new and unique monsters. Unfortunately, the protagonist/victim characters can't be that interesting. After all, part of the horror is that the heroes don't have nearly as many resources as the monsters.

This asymetry poses two problems. First, why would anyone want to play the protagonists? Okay, this one is easily solved by the fact that Real Ultimate Power seekers can play in all monster campaigns. The second problem is that it may be hard to make the campaign interesting for monsters, given that their antagonists are relatively weak and stupid enough to go have sex when they should be on the lookout for the monster.
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Post by Username17 »

You know, honestly the whole thing where monsters need to have unknown capabilities is complete horse shit. Cat People and The Wolf Man are plenty scary and don't need to have any fucking random unknowable powers. It's a very well established and defined monster trope, and it works fine.

Fuck, Jason and Michael Myers don't get radical new power suites from movie to movie these days, they just do the same thing over and over again. And it works. And the reason it works is the same reason that sharks are scary - knowing that there's something out there in the dark that has a very real chance of ripping you in half brings a good deal of dread to the equation. And it doesn't need to break the rules to deliver that.

Sharks don't need to fly out of the water or carry chainsaws in order to unnerve, and zombies don't need to deviate from their established ability set either.

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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote:You know, honestly the whole thing where monsters need to have unknown capabilities is complete horse shit. Cat People and The Wolf Man are plenty scary and don't need to have any fucking random unknowable powers. It's a very well established and defined monster trope, and it works fine.
Unfortunately, while that stuff may work for movies, for a game it doesn't. Werewolves aren't scary in D&D or shadowrun. They're just another monster. Break out the silver bullets, it's a werewolf hunt.

The thing is while such creatures can evoke the fear of death, this is seldom really much of a fear for players in an RPG. I mean most people have lost characters before, and especially if the game is designed to be deadly, as most horror games are, most players just aren't going to be all that afraid. Because I mean shit, yeah the wolfman can kill me, but so can an orc with a greataxe. And RPG players are used to dealing with danger.

If you've got a long running campaign you can use shit that takes away something permanently from your character, like energy drain used to in old AD&D. Because seriously, you met a wight back then and you were scared when you had a long running 5th level character. But before that works it needs to be a character that you care about. But that's a pretty valid scare tactic for long running campaigns.

The fear of the unknown actually is something that I've found tends to work a bit better on PCs, assuming you can pull it off correctly. The fact that you're up against "something new and unexplained" is a big part of any kind of supernatural horror, and can get the player's guessing about what they should do next. Call of Cthulhu had it right where PCs really shouldn't be encountering the monsters much. Most of the time, PCs are going to be doing investigations and uncovering sinister clues and such as to the monster's weakness and identity.

But for this to work, you really do need custom monsters. Because seriously, your PCs will likely be more scared of a hill giant than the wolf man. You'll go through all that horror lead up of bloodied corpses and shit, and then make the appearance of the monster, and your PCs will just be nudging each other saying "Told'ya, werewolf."

Horror really needs to be about lack of recognition. It can't be something familiar. The PCs shouldn't have a great idea of what happens next. The problem with the werewolf is that the PCs know exactly how the shit goes down. Werewolf appears, they try to kill it with silver. Maybe they kill it, maybe they die. There's really not much in the way of surprises in that scenario and that's bad. This isn't a movie or FPS game where you can take advantage of the "creature sudden leaps in your face" factor of most horror movies. That's just not going to happen.

In an RPG, you've got to work more on making it ominous, creepy and dreadful rather than purely relying on shock. It's why you'd get a better horror game out of Final Destination or The Ring than you would out of some cheesy werewolf flick. For an ongoing game, you could also do something like The X-Files as well, where most of the show is investigations where the characters try to figure out what exactly this weeks monster is.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

You can also get some mileage out of varying from the archetype. If you had a point-based system, you could have templates representing the "typical" archetypes, but still have the flexibility to change something up ("Silver bullets don't work on this werewolf").
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Post by Talisman »

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:It looks like the big problem is going to be that a standard list of archetypes is out. Monsters are going to have to have some sort of point-buy creation system so you can make new and unique monsters. Unfortunately, the protagonist/victim characters can't be that interesting. After all, part of the horror is that the heroes don't have nearly as many resources as the monsters.

This asymetry poses two problems. First, why would anyone want to play the protagonists? Okay, this one is easily solved by the fact that Real Ultimate Power seekers can play in all monster campaigns. The second problem is that it may be hard to make the campaign interesting for monsters, given that their antagonists are relatively weak and stupid enough to go have sex when they should be on the lookout for the monster.
This is one reason I would lean towards a "heros only" RPG - monster players are trouble enough in a fantasy RPG, let alone a horror game that's all about fear of the unknown and soulless, inhuman terror.

The asymmetry also encourages the PC party - the monster is so badass that one human alone stands virtually no chance against it. You need the Tough Guy to delay it, the Smart Guy to figure out its weakness, the Charismatic Guy to get civillians out of danger...etc.

And I think some sort of point-buy monster system is the way to go. You could start with a basic chassis - "Brute," "Mastermind," "Horde Member," "Serial Killer" - then spend points on special abilities like toughness, inhuman strength, and any number of supernatural powers. Extra powers could be paid for with extra weaknesses, and of course, every monster has at least one weakness.

This could let you create the classics - vampires, ghost, werewolves, zombie hordes, demons, slashers - plus twists on those classics, like a werejaguar that's only vulnerable to gold. Of course, you can always create utterly new beasties as well.

Frank, you're right that the classic monsters worked for Cat People and The Wolf Man - but RPG gamers are an entirely different kettle of undead fish. It doesn't take long for the Average Guys to become the Fearless Monster Stompers if they (1) encounter monsters on a regular basis, (2) learn how to defeat each monster (otherwise they don't survive), and (3) retain that knowledge/skill. This leads to a situation with only two options: new, unknown monsters (effectively neutralizing the "accumulated knowledge") or more and more powerful monsters (a la D&D).

There's, also the fact that, after fighting off ghosts, a zombie horde, a werewolverine pack and an ancient Tentacled Evil, the PCs' reaction to a rash of killings wil - quite justifiably - be: "Another monster. Suit up; Jake, you hit the museum; Fred, check up on local cults; Ann, stock up on spices. Everyone got their silver bullets, crosses, obsidian knives and Elder Signs? Let's roll."

This is totally anathema to the horror genre.
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RandomCasualty2 wrote:
Talisman wrote: This is why I think a horror RPG should support the one-shot and the minicampaign more than the epic campaign...each "adventure" centers around defeating a given creature; once you've beaten him, you move on and deal with a different critter. Each monster (or influx of monsters) needs to be virtually unique; otherwise it becomes "Sigh, another vampire...load up the Stake-O-Matic 3000 and the garlic juice watergun and let's go."
The problem comes once you start writing rules for it. The whole nature and purpose of rules is standardization, however, the goal you're trying to achieve with your horror monsters is uniqueness. And especially given that you probably want to create your own custom horror monsters so the campaign doesn't just involve rehashes of old horror villains the PCs already know, this gets very difficult to make into an actual game, because creatures don't really have any kind of consistent mechanics.
well, I have in my mind the goal of havign a "Create-a-foe" chapter which will allow the director to create a unique monster.
Talisman wrote:
Absentminded_Wizard wrote:It looks like the big problem is going to be that a standard list of archetypes is out. Monsters are going to have to have some sort of point-buy creation system so you can make new and unique monsters. Unfortunately, the protagonist/victim characters can't be that interesting. After all, part of the horror is that the heroes don't have nearly as many resources as the monsters.

This asymetry poses two problems. First, why would anyone want to play the protagonists? Okay, this one is easily solved by the fact that Real Ultimate Power seekers can play in all monster campaigns. The second problem is that it may be hard to make the campaign interesting for monsters, given that their antagonists are relatively weak and stupid enough to go have sex when they should be on the lookout for the monster.
This is one reason I would lean towards a "heros only" RPG - monster players are trouble enough in a fantasy RPG, let alone a horror game that's all about fear of the unknown and soulless, inhuman terror.

The asymmetry also encourages the PC party - the monster is so badass that one human alone stands virtually no chance against it. You need the Tough Guy to delay it, the Smart Guy to figure out its weakness, the Charismatic Guy to get civillians out of danger...etc.

And I think some sort of point-buy monster system is the way to go. You could start with a basic chassis - "Brute," "Mastermind," "Horde Member," "Serial Killer" - then spend points on special abilities like toughness, inhuman strength, and any number of supernatural powers. Extra powers could be paid for with extra weaknesses, and of course, every monster has at least one weakness.

This could let you create the classics - vampires, ghost, werewolves, zombie hordes, demons, slashers - plus twists on those classics, like a werejaguar that's only vulnerable to gold. Of course, you can always create utterly new beasties as well.

Frank, you're right that the classic monsters worked for Cat People and The Wolf Man - but RPG gamers are an entirely different kettle of undead fish. It doesn't take long for the Average Guys to become the Fearless Monster Stompers if they (1) encounter monsters on a regular basis, (2) learn how to defeat each monster (otherwise they don't survive), and (3) retain that knowledge/skill. This leads to a situation with only two options: new, unknown monsters (effectively neutralizing the "accumulated knowledge") or more and more powerful monsters (a la D&D).

There's, also the fact that, after fighting off ghosts, a zombie horde, a werewolverine pack and an ancient Tentacled Evil, the PCs' reaction to a rash of killings wil - quite justifiably - be: "Another monster. Suit up; Jake, you hit the museum; Fred, check up on local cults; Ann, stock up on spices. Everyone got their silver bullets, crosses, obsidian knives and Elder Signs? Let's roll."

This is totally anathema to the horror genre.
actually, once the scooby gang has fought off vampires, werewolves, a hag, and a mass of zombies and their bokor, the genre changes to action horror, like Hack/Slash or, as a slightly worse example, Buffy. But, I would assume, the game can continue to use the same rules.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

But then there are series like Supernatural. Which are about being on the run and fighting demons and such.

Or at least that's what I gathered watching a single episode.
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