PR's D&D Revision (Sorry for the Re-Post)

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you assume that not every expert is going to sneak attack (which is a good assumption, because it isn't required), then there should be some other talent that grants approximately equivalent advantage in combat. If both options stack, having better or worse sneak attack should even out and be roughly balanced.

[Psychic Robot]

Actually, now that I think of it, sneak attack should be alright as a single talent, since there are a number of talents that have the side effect of boosting damage. Skirmish should also be that way, then. And eldritch blast, for that matter.

Hrm.

Well, I guess I'd rather have characters who can do a huge number of things rather than very little.

[Bigode]

Actually, now that I think of it, sneak attack should be alright as a single talent, since there are a number of talents that have the side effect of boosting damage. Skirmish should also be that way, then. And eldritch blast, for that matter.

You do know that sneak/skirmish are bonuses and eldritch blast (as done in warlocks at least) is an option, right?

[Username17]

While we're on the subject: why did you think pumping extra mana into spells to "augment" them into doing level appropriate damage was a good idea?

-Username17

[Meikle641]

Oh, here we go again...

[Psychic Robot]

You do know that sneak/skirmish are bonuses and eldritch blast (as done in warlocks at least) is an option, right?

Yes, I do. I mentioned that in my post, actually.

While we're on the subject: why did you think pumping extra mana into spells to "augment" them into doing level appropriate damage was a good idea?

-Username17

I like the psionics system.

[Bigode]

Yes, I do. I mentioned that in my post, actually.

Not in the one I quoted, at least.

[Username17]

I like the psionics system.

Then I can't help you. Because honestly the thing where web provides level appropriate battlefield control at all levels and fireball requires "augmentation" just to stay effective is fifteen flavors of bullshit. If you want Wizards to eschew being evokers you should cut the bullshit and just remove the "option."

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

Apparently, my words make more sense to me than they do to everyone else . My problem, I suppose, is that players can, theoretically, use those all at once, allowing for MASSIVE DAMAGE. Then again, I suppose it's okay if that happens because he'd be using a very limited resource to do so.

[koz]

Owning one combat and sucking through the rest is not fun. Additionally, spell/power points lock you into the 4 encounters/day metric pretty darn hard.

[Meikle641]

Personally, I like having the discretion of how I allocate my power with psionics. Sometimes you don't need to spend full cost some something, which means you can further extend your longevity. Or if you don't have a high lvl power that fits your current need, you simply brute force a lower level one, allowing old powers to stay relevant, unlike magic.

But hey, my words aren't gonna change Frank's mind. He's made it clear in various threads about it, and I still think he's dead wrong. But whatever, different strokes for different folks.

[koz]

Personally, I like having the discretion of how I allocate my power with psionics. Sometimes you don't need to spend full cost some something, which means you can further extend your longevity. Or if you don't have a high lvl power that fits your current need, you simply brute force a lower level one, allowing old powers to stay relevant, unlike magic.

OK, I'll field this one.

Basically, psionics (or any other 'spell points' system) in DnD is designed specifically to be tailored to the 4 encounters/day system. Now, if you have fewer encounters than this, there is no reason not to nova (and spell-point systems actually do this BETTER than Vancian spell slots, because no matter how hard you try, a 1st level spell will never be a 5th level spell). However, if you have more, you are now not doing anything even resembling level appropriateness, because you are having to throw around subpar abilities.

Furthermore, a power like grease autoscales, but fireball doesn't? Seriously? Why should this distinction exist? Either you set everything on the same standard or your system is broken. In practice, the latter is what occurs, because psionics-type systems actually discourage 'blasting' even more than ordinary magic does.

It doesn't give you versatility - it gives you the option to OWN or SUCK. Neither of these are good - the former breaks the game in half, the other just makes you wanna go off and play Monster Hunter on your PSP or something.

[Meikle641]

Personally, in my experience (yeah yeah) it's never been an issue of "Owning or sucking", except at like, lvl 1-3 but magic already has that issue.

Honestly, in all the psi characters I've fielded in the last year or two, running out of PP or being useless has only rarely occurred. Yeah, personal experience is subjective, but there are a fair number of folks who play psionic characters and don't suffer this supposed downfall.

Yeah, going nova is an issue, but I honestly don't care. Use powers effectively and don't play like a retard, and you generally can last the four encounters or longer. Kinda like say, a wizard or sorc, I'd say.

But really, this is about PR's weird mishmash resembling D&D, not beefs with psi or whatever. Everyone's stances on this issue are fairly well entrenched and nly serve to keep derailing the topic. Not that such a thing is *new* here, but hey...

[Psychic Robot]

So what would you suggest to make it so that spells like grease and web pay an equivalent spellpoint cost as nuking spells without returning to Vancian?

[Username17]

So what would you suggest to make it so that spells like grease and web pay an equivalent spellpoint cost as nuking spells without returning to Vancian?

You already have a Vancian system. Seriously, people declare what powers they will have ahead of time and then they use up their power battery at some rate and then they have to go refill the power battery by stopping the adventure. I don't know what you think Vancian means, but you've totally already got it.

Now classical D&D uses old school spell cards that are "played" and then removed, while you have a generic mana pool which is spent to "activate" the spell cards you have in front of you - but that's a thoroughly cosmetic change and is of little interest save as an extra layer you have to keep track of.

But the key thing that Psionics, and you are filled with retarded failure about is the fact that a condition like "delayed one turn" is always going to automagically scale to be appropriate to whatever it is that you're doing, because making a Bane Lord lose a turn of swinging his Hellblade is substantially more interesting than making a Vaetti Spearman lose a turn of stabbing with a spear. Mezzes and insta-kills of all kinds scale in power to the opposition that you are faced with, while DPS and Healing do not. You could handle that by setting your DPS and Healing powers up to raw percentages so that they too can auto-scale to enemies, or you can set your DPS and healing to auto-scale to you - making DPS and healing to be good when used in opposition to "weak" enemies (while of course Mez and Insta-kill are always going to shine against "strong" enemies).

I don't much care, but what you got right now is unsalvageable.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

I suppose I'll have to scrap the spellpoint system, then. Which is too bad, given that I really liked the ability to "upgrade" lower-level spells into higher-level versions. Oh, well. How should I go about making spontaneous casters suck less?

[Calibron]

You could handle that by setting your DPS and Healing powers up to raw percentages so that they too can auto-scale to enemies

This is a interesting idea that I've been playing around with for a while and I would like to see how it works out.

or you can set your DPS and healing to auto-scale to you - making DPS and healing to be good when used in opposition to "weak" enemies (while of course Mez and Insta-kill are always going to shine against "strong" enemies).

I don't much care, but what you got right now is unsalvageable.

-Username17

Please tell me how this is substantially, or at all, different from having damage/healing dice scale to caster level like they already do. Though I do realize in PR's revision dice don't scale automatically.

As for spell points and novaing; I think it would work well if you started the day with about 1 quarter or 1 fifth of the number you'd get in a normal spell point system and get that same amount everytime you have an encounter. I would allocate this amount at the start of the day so that the caster has the freedom to augment their power in a difficult fight and/or use utility spells and such outside of combat.

[Meikle641]

Well, if one goes encounter based you could totally steal the swordsage progression for prepped spells or whatever. It's something I've pondered, and hell, the book even suggests a spellcasting SS variant.

And regrading SP/PP, 1/4 PP would work, but then there's crap like racial bonuses, Int/Cha/Wis bonus, etc. Add it all up, then divide, separate and add, etc. Too much of a hassle, mayhap.

Optionally, you could just give 2x ML for base PP and had stat bonuses be x - 10 be the result (16 - 10 = 6). Gives more than the other method, but would require less calculations and rounding down/up.

Maybe that is the way to go? Prepped casters use the swordsage crap, keeping their auto-scaling and spont casters/manifesters use the SP/PP deal. The latter would require slight feat tweaking (Reduce Metapsi feats by 2 PP, likely) and a few adjustments, but encounter based has potential.

Or something.

[Psychic Robot]

I also considered that, but I prefer spells per day rather than per hour, lest buffs be spammed and all that. (Giving them spellpoints only when the encounter starts feels very cheesy to me, and it would allow for buffing, but I'm 'meh' on it overall.)

[Meikle641]

I dunno there, most common buffs are only in the rounds or minute range 9something 5 or 10, but yeah), and rarely hours. In most cases the buffs will wear off between battles anyway, unless they're constantly refreshing them. Of course, such practices would be well known in the game world, which would give justification for ambushes when folks go to refresh.

Or you could just tweak spells that would be problems, or something. It's a big project already, but that's pretty much what you'd have to do anyway.

[JonSetanta]

Psionics is workable but as Meikle states it does encourage "nova" behavior.

If you provide a big pool of spell points that equate to a large number of highest level powers usable each combat, players will want to make sure they are at their peak in every battle. Direct cause and effect resulting in that typical 5 minute work day.
If you want to limit them to a smaller number of best powers and force them to use more lower level powers when the best (4-5 or so) have run out, you're back to Vancian.

So, take your pick. I don't see any inherent advantage of one over the other since it all comes to personal preference and how you want an adventurer's day paced out
You'll have all the trouble of either, whichever way you go, but it is salvageable.
We just can't help you make the decision since it's your remake: do you want less intense battles over longer duration (non-nova Vancian) or a setup that encourages exploding all your best (nova 3.5e Psionics) each encounter?

[ckafrica]

I suppose a you could have save DCs linked to spellpoints spent. That makes a 1pt sleep spell be as effective as a 1pt fireball when used against a high level opponent.

ANother idea might be to tie the amount of HD a spell can affect to the points expended.

Ultimately though, people are going to nova most of the time so you might be better off just dictating how many spells a day you want the player to be able to cast in a day or use some other recharge mechanic

[schpeelah]

OK, so we have the following problems:

- some spells need to get more powerful in order to stay the same in relation to enemies, while others don"t

- the ecounter/daily problem which either encourages insane buffing, going nova and/or 5 min. workday because you"re spent so fast

Possible solutions:
1 anything that needs to scale, does with a cap that goes up if you augument

1b actual auguments add new things like, say, fire blasts tossing people around or setting them on fire, cones of cold slowing or creating difficult terrain so you get options to choose from

2 have separate ecounter/daily point pools, with attack spells, short-term buffs and debuffs being ecounter spells and healing, all-day buffs and out of combat utility being daily

[Psychic Robot]

I've got the Vancian system set out, but I haven't uploaded it yet.

Now I'm having more problems. I'm trying to find a way to make a distinction between warriors, experts, and spellwarriors. While warriors have the highest attack bonus and experts have the most skills, it doesn't feel like enough, especially given that other classes cast spells. I'm considering giving them bonus talents that they can select from certain lists (experts could choose from assassin, thief, etc., while warriors could choose from martial adept, berserker, etc.).

However, this feels kind of lame.

1. Is this solution lame?
2. Pretend that the warrior doesn't have his current class features. What would you suggest?

[Elennsar]

Not screwing him out of skills and abilities related to that.