Spellcasting and fatigue

[Naszir]

What are the thoughts here on making spellcasting cause fatigue? Fatigue in this case meaning hit point damage not CON damage.

Spellcasters with this system are not limited in the number of spells a day they can cast. Damage and fatigue will determine this.

I envision something like this:

• In order to cast a spell without taking damage you must roll a d20 and beat the spells DC or suffer fatigue. D20 + appropriate stat modifier + ½ character level must be equal to or better than 12 + spell level.
  
  A natural roll of 1, in addition to fatigue, indicates that the caster has suffered damage (mana burn) equal to d6 x the spell level (do not multiply the d6 roll, just roll a number of d6’s times the spell level.)
  
  The first fatigue roll failed in an encounter by a caster causes him to suffer a -1 modifier on all rolls and loses 5ft of movement till the end of the encounter.
  
  A second failed fatigue roll causes the caster to become exhausted. When exhausted a caster suffers a -3 modifier to all rolls and loses 15ft of movement till the end of the encounter.
  
  A third failed fatigue roll in an encounter causes the caster to become unconscious and automatically take spell energy damage as if he had rolled a 1.
  
  After the encounter is over the spellcaster partially recovers from the fatigue. They no longer suffer the negative modifiers to rolls and movement but any "mana burn" damage still remains.

[violence in the media]

What if you eliminated the rolls, in order to create some consistency between characters, and gave all (arcane only?) spells straight hit point costs? What those costs would be, I'm not sure.

Now, you'd probably have to flip hit dice around so that wizards and sorcerers were getting d12 hit dice, as they're burning hit points for spell power, and maybe bump everyone else down a die type. Your arcane casters would now have a sort of unearthly resiliency, but each spell they cast would wear that away. You'd also have to do something about limitless magical healing to prevent providing limitless spells.

[Elennsar]

So let's see.

I am a Cleric with Wisdom 16.

I'm first level.

d20+3 vs. 12 or 13. 50% chance of making it for my most powerful spells
.
Nine levels and two points of Wisdom later...

d20+9 vs. DC 17. 60% chance.

20th level (Wisdom 20)...

d20+15 vs. DC 21. 70% chance.

Odds are very, very, very good that characters will have a better primary stat than I calculated.

So as you get higher level and cast more powerful spells, you are less likely to fail and can do more powerful spells.

Theoretically, a fatigue based spell point system would work very nicely (with the results you propose, perhaps, even), but the DCs are far too low for high level spells and maybe a bit too high at the begining (depending on how much you want people to fail).

[Username17]

Some systems respond very well to Fatigue based mechanics. Classically Shadowrun and Arkham Horror work off a system where spells damage you, and Champions and Battletech work off a power battery system. Both work fine.

Putting in either system to D&D would be non-trivial. Essentially you'd have to write a new magic system. Not that I think this would be a bad idea, it's just that you're looking at writing a book the size of Tome of Magic and then asking everyone to play magic using classes from that book to the exclusion of magic using classes out of the PHB and other sources.

-Username17

[Naszir]

What if you eliminated the rolls, in order to create some consistency between characters, and gave all (arcane only?) spells straight hit point costs? What those costs would be, I'm not sure.

Now, you'd probably have to flip hit dice around so that wizards and sorcerers were getting d12 hit dice, as they're burning hit points for spell power, and maybe bump everyone else down a die type. Your arcane casters would now have a sort of unearthly resiliency, but each spell they cast would wear that away. You'd also have to do something about limitless magical healing to prevent providing limitless spells.

Good point. Damage could be assessed on the high end of d6 average by making them do 3 hp of damage per spell level.

I wouldn't bother with flipping hit dice around. Magic is powerful, you screw it up, it is going to hurt.

[Elennsar]

Trouble is, with your DCs, the more powerful casters (even with the more powerful spells) are hurt less often.

Do you really want an archmage casting meteor storm to be safer than his apprentice casting magic missile?

[Naszir]

So let's see.

I am a Cleric with Wisdom 16.

I'm first level.

d20+3 vs. 12 or 13. 50% chance of making it for my most powerful spells
.
Nine levels and two points of Wisdom later...

d20+9 vs. DC 17. 60% chance.

20th level (Wisdom 20)...

d20+15 vs. DC 21. 70% chance.

Odds are very, very, very good that characters will have a better primary stat than I calculated.

So as you get higher level and cast more powerful spells, you are less likely to fail and can do more powerful spells.

Theoretically, a fatigue based spell point system would work very nicely (with the results you propose, perhaps, even), but the DCs are far too low for high level spells and maybe a bit too high at the begining (depending on how much you want people to fail).

Yes, the spellcasting DC should be adjusted up. Makes sense.

Failing in this case most often just results in non-damage negative effects so while players should fear failing in spellcasting it should not be so bad for it to really crush the character.

Spellcasting should be difficult with some moderate consequences with the fear of harsher consequences when things really go wrong.

[Naszir]

As far as healing goes would it be too much to say that any fatigue (and maybe damage) caused by spellcasting can only be restored by normal rest.

That way Lesser Restoration could not be abused.

[Elennsar]

You do, however, need it to be serious enough (and possibly frequent enough) to deal with the fact spells as written are not even remotely close to balanced for a nigh "at will" system.

Being able to cast magic missile as often as the fighter can use his bow would be seriously problematic, even (especially?) at high levels.

[Orion]

At high levels, you *can* use magic missile as often as the fighter can use his bow, which is about 16 times per day, fewer if you're on the five-minute day.

[Elennsar]

Using higher level spell slots for it is ineffective, so the fact you can do that in the rules as written isn't nearly as troubling as a 5d5+5 attack at level 9 that never misses that can be used as many times as you want without interfering with being able to cast something else.

Subsitute your chosen spell for magic missile...until the DCs are adjusted, you get "I cast as many times as the fighter attacks and with my biggest spells".

Five minute day not needed. All of its problems (mechanically) and more.

[violence in the media]

Good point. Damage could be assessed on the high end of d6 average by making them do 3 hp of damage per spell level.

I wouldn't bother with flipping hit dice around. Magic is powerful, you screw it up, it is going to hurt.

My concern would be that, if it costs you 3 hp per spell level to cast a spell, then any given wizard is only going to be able to cast one or two spells on a d4 hit dice.

Mind you, I am talking about spells costing hit points period. No "roll for it" or as a penalty for failure in some way. I mean it in the "I cast Magic Missle at the Darkness, let me subtract 3 hp from my total."

Now, maybe that would work with a d4 hit dice and unmodified healing. A wizard's hit point total acts as his magical encounter battery, in addition to doing the double duty of keeping him alive. It can be refilled inefficiently with in-combat healing, but there's only so many spells someone is going to throw when it costs them 12 to 27 hit points per shot. This might further necesitate a healbot however, and that's not a good thing. You'd also need to make sure you kept some sort of cork on hit point bloat. However, this might make gishes a little more satisfying for players to whip up, as fighter/wizards will be able to whip out a lot more of their spells, compared to straight mages, even though they aren't as high a level. Then again, two Fireballs doesn't suck any less than one when you really need a Maze, so YMMV.

[Bigode]

Do you want 4E magic, or something you might actually care about and thus use out of combat?

[Naszir]

The other thing that just occured to me is what to do with spells cast beyond the confines of an encounter. With the way I have suggested things any spell cast outside of an encounter becomes a "free" spell unless the roll is a 1 and the spellcaster takes damage.

[Username17]

The thing is that D&D isn't really set up to support fatigue casting, because there's nothing to fatigue.

The fact is that any "cost" you spend comes in one of three types:

• Essentially meaningless costs Any limit on the number of spells you can cast in a period that is less restrictive than the amount of spells you were going to cast anyway may as well not exist. If you can cast 20 spells in the day's four combats that means fuck all because today's four battles won't last five rounds each.
• Annoying Costs If the wizard has a restriction on how many spells he can cast such that he won't run out this battle but is going to make demands to rest before the next battle then the team is in fact going to rest. Also the wizard will annoy the other party members. People will do the five minute work day because it works, but that doesn't mean that they don't resent the players driving it and the system that demands it.
• In-Battle Burnout If the Wizard runs out of juice in this battle, then he juice limits actually matter. Of course, to qualify as a balanced character at that point he better be hitting super hard before the Magic Goes Away.

So really we note that in the D&D setup there isn't any such thing as a fatigue system that fits into the game vaguely smoothly. The only thing that really becomes noticeable as a Fatigue System is the in-battle burnout option - and that's just an open love letter to rocket launcher tag.

-Username17

[Naszir]

Do you want 4E magic, or something you might actually care about and thus use out of combat?

I was trying to think of a 3.5 non-vancian magic mechanic without having to use spell points and without the artificial limitation of you can only use this "power" once per encounter/day.

[JonSetanta]

"Per Encounter" totals work better than counting down or accumulating any kind of fatigue.

The difference, IMO, is that the latter also applies penalties due to eventual low amount of whatever resource you drain.
... which leads to the same wankery as 3.0 Polymorph; a waste of time as the players recalculate numeric values.

[violence in the media]

Good point. You might be better off just trying to rebalance all of the spells and just letting people cast whatever they want whenever they want it.

[Bigode]

What works has already been found, actually: separating effects between the ones not worth limiting and those that are. Then the ones worth limiting can be put on a daily or risk scheme in a saner way.

[Naszir]

The thing is that D&D isn't really set up to support fatigue casting, because there's nothing to fatigue.

The fact is that any "cost" you spend comes in one of three types:

• Essentially meaningless costs Any limit on the number of spells you can cast in a period that is less restrictive than the amount of spells you were going to cast anyway may as well not exist. If you can cast 20 spells in the day's four combats that means fuck all because today's four battles won't last five rounds each.
• Annoying Costs If the wizard has a restriction on how many spells he can cast such that he won't run out this battle but is going to make demands to rest before the next battle then the team is in fact going to rest. Also the wizard will annoy the other party members. People will do the five minute work day because it works, but that doesn't mean that they don't resent the players driving it and the system that demands it.
• In-Battle Burnout If the Wizard runs out of juice in this battle, then he juice limits actually matter. Of course, to qualify as a balanced character at that point he better be hitting super hard before the Magic Goes Away.

So really we note that in the D&D setup there isn't any such thing as a fatigue system that fits into the game vaguely smoothly. The only thing that really becomes noticeable as a Fatigue System is the in-battle burnout option - and that's just an open love letter to rocket launcher tag.

-Username17

Doesn't In-Battle Burnout in a fatigue system depend on what kind of battle your in. A high level spellcaster wouldn't be smart to cast a high level spell right away when facing an encounter that doesn't call for it.

The chance that the spellcaster could take significant damage early in a combat that doesn't call for the rocket launcher doesn't make sense.

Doesn't a fatigue system makes sense for the spellcaster to cast appropriate spells at appropriate times? Minor encounters don't make sense for the spellcaster to whip out the big guns. If a spellcaster is facing the BBEG, yeah, then it is time to take a chance.

[Username17]

The chance that the spellcaster could take significant damage early in a combat that doesn't call for the rocket launcher doesn't make sense.

No. It encourages you to nova strike at the beginning of every battle and then go to bed.

Doesn't a fatigue system makes sense for the spellcaster to cast appropriate spells at appropriate times? Minor encounters don't make sense for the spellcaster to whip out the big guns.

Not really. Spellcasters just blow the fucking hell out of encounters and then demand to rest. It's five minute workday in action. Why would you have four encounters with some of your buffs when you can have just one encounter with all your buffs and then curl up in your rope trick?

Hurting yourself to win a fight is completely reasonable. However long it takes to get ready for the next fight is how long the rest of the party is damn well going to sit on their thumbs if they want their big guns (which they do). Hurting yourself however much less to not instantly win a fight is borderline retarded.

-Username17

[Naszir]

No. It encourages you to nova strike at the beginning of every battle and then go to bed.

Why? There is no guarantee that the spell the caster has ends the encounter at that moment and there is a chance that you take damage from casting the spell and casting spells further on in the battle could become more difficult.

Not really. Spellcasters just blow the fucking hell out of encounters and then demand to rest. It's five minute workday in action. Why would you have four encounters with some of your buffs when you can have just one encounter with all your buffs and then curl up in your rope trick?

Hurting yourself to win a fight is completely reasonable. However long it takes to get ready for the next fight is how long the rest of the party is damn well going to sit on their thumbs if they want their big guns (which they do). Hurting yourself however much less to not instantly win a fight is borderline retarded.

-Username17

That sounds like it is more a problem with encounter design (and maybe the removal of problem spells) than a function of spellcasters.

Time for the DM to whip out encounters that involve waves of attackers. So the spellcaster just went nova on the first wave ... whoops, big mistake because that first wave didn't include the reinforcements who have the big heavy with them.

[Murtak]

What Frank is getting at (I think) is this:
1. In order for in-battle-burnout to be a viable cost magic better have more impact than non-magic contributions.
2. Full attacks, pounce charges, optimized grapples and the like are already very very deadly, so anything significantly above that will have to spell certain death for multiple weak foes or a damn good shot at taking out a strong enemy.
3. Anything that gives you a toin-coss chance of ending the encounter with your first action is always worth trying, no matter the cost to yourself.

And even if you do manage to find some level of power with serious-but-still-balanced burnout costs and not-yet-encounter-ending power it would still drive DnD towards shorter deadlier encounters - and I am not sure that is wise.

You might want to go for something else - maybe a charge-up system where many spells (or possibly all spells) take multiple actions to cast. Then you can have a 3 action spell instantly annihilate an enemy if you don't get interrupted. Such a system would be deadlier in that more actions exist which instantly kill you, but more predictable in that you can see it coming - so hopefully it won't end up being deadlier overall. And you do have the advantage of doing your balancing with a type of cost that is much harder to ignore than HPs or skill check penalties or even instant and guaranteed unconsciousness.

[Naszir]

A charge up system sounds interesting. Though it sounds better to call it a buffer system.

In order to get to your big time spells you have to cast some of your smaller spells first.

This could be explained that going whole hog and casting a high level spell right at the start would just be too much for a body to take. You have to cast lower level spells first, siphon off some of the magic energy and slowly let a magic buffer build up before unleashing the big stuff.

Lower level spells don't seem to be a problem so let's say you don't have to create a buffer for cantrips, 1st level and 2nd level spells.

A simple process would be to say that in order to cast spells that are 3rd through 9th level you need to have already cast a number of spell levels that are equal to or greater than the spell you are about to cast.

What would also need to be added on here is that a caster shouldn't HAVE to cast a spell but could declare that he is gathering his magic buffer. At the cost of a swift action he can gather magic energy equal to current round.

So if you want to cast a 3rd level spell, you need to cast a 1st level and 2nd level spell first. Or maybe you have cast a 1st level spell in round one and then use a swift action in round two to gather 2 points of magic buffer so in round three so you can unleash the Fireball spell.

After you cast that 3rd level spell you now have access to your 4th, 5th and 6th level spells to cast.

Think this might work?

[Murtak]

That sounds needlessly complicated and is also utterly besides the point.
- If the higher level spells are too good to get a single action cast time and the lower level spells are fine as is then you get to have actions that are balanced at the beginning of an encounter and actions that are too powerful at the end of encounters.
- If the higher level spells are fine, why do they need a restriction in the first place?
- Lower level spells are not fine. Sleep is deadly at level 1, and so are Color Spray, Charm Person, Hold Person, Web and many many others.

So in short: horrible idea, even if it may work for some specific levels.