Middle-Earth: The RPG

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:47 pm

Since Aspects are a wonderful concept, great.

I'd say on the whole Tragic Flaws are not something you want to emphasis (you=the player)...they're going to come out whether you like it or not.

But that's an interpetation of the setting, not necessarily the details of "how best to GM this".

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:00 am

Accidentally left off the most relevant part: Exalted heroes in the base book are supposed to be unnaturally "perfect", so their magic effects are mostly based on doing skills really well-- mind-control performances and whatnot. The ability list might have some inspirations for elven talents.

Also, social combat.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:37 am

I have a copy of Exalted (picked it up cheap), and while I haven't read it in depth yet, I agree that the flavor seems very Silmarillionish. Not a fan of the Storyteller system in general, and I've head bad things about Exalthed's mechnaics...still, maybe we can pick ideas from it.

ludomastro wrote:Sounds a bit like the tagging of aspects in the FATE system. As the GM, I can compel you (you get a Fate point) to get all Prideful in negative way while you can in turn use your Fate points to have your Pride work to your advantage.

Similar, yes. I really like the "aspects" part of FATE.
But I agree with Elennsar that Flaws should be weighted towards the negative...they should hinder more than they help. The are flaws, after all.

ludomastro · Post by **ludomastro** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:52 am

Talisman wrote: Similar, yes. I really like the "aspects" part of FATE.
But I agree with Elennsar that Flaws should be weighted towards the negative...they should hinder more than they help. The are flaws, after all.

Ahh, now I understand. I can get behind that.

Naszir · Post by **Naszir** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:30 pm

Also you might take a look at Midnight by FFG. The basic premise behind the world setting was .... let's make a middle earth like world in which Sauron had won the battle at Minas Tirith.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:41 pm

I've played a Midnight campaign. It's a pretty cool setting, although there are (of course) some pretty stupid aspects to it.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:27 pm

A question or three.

The overwhelming majority of the tales of fighting against the Enemy have to do with Men and Elves.

Should Dwarves be possible PCs at all?

Also, how do we intend to handle that elves are mightier then Men?

It seems that while "Elves" have an edge on "Men", individual heroes are roughly equivalant...Aragorn and Legolas, for instance, to refer to the Third Age.

Also, just how high power (relative to ordinary warriors) are our heroes, anyway? We know for certain that a hero cannot match an army, but a hero is a mighty presence within one.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:20 pm

Elennsar wrote:Also, how do we intend to handle that elves are mightier then Men?

It seems that while "Elves" have an edge on "Men", individual heroes are roughly equivalant...Aragorn and Legolas, for instance, to refer to the Third Age.

The brute force way to to it is giving elves some big non-stacking bonuses that actual heroes get even bigger from the get-go.

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:30 pm

Boolean wrote:If you can stomach White Wolf at all, check out Exalted. It's like 4th edition in that a casual description sounds pretty good, but the ideas are badly implemented. Still the ideas behind it are awesome, so it might be worth a look.

-- Second-age heroics are the norm
-- mass combat taken seriously, with a system in which the men you lead become like an item you wear
-- each hero has a Flaw
-- "Alignment" system consists of a rating on each of four Virtues: compassion, valor, conviction, temperance. Acting against them costs Willpower (think edge)

Just for information, that's how exactly badly these ideas are implemented:
1)In Exalted, particularly in 2E, you do heroics when you're faced with mooks, but one mistake in combat with a serious opponent, and you go from "hero" to "red mist" in an instant. Seriously, this system becomes totally unforgiving as soon, as you go for mechanically efficient choices. Less so in 1E, but still.
2)The mass combat is unwieldy. Basically, skirmishes against mook squads and large battles between troop formations are rolled into one system, and, depending on how easily your GM allows to initiate the mass combat, it is either useless or gives many bonuses for free. Also, by the very nature of mass combat your strategic abilities are way less important than personal asskicking potential. This might not fit games with lower power level.
3)Virtues are so mechanically crucial to survival, that it makes them a tempting target for optimization, instead of character-building tool. Also, Conviction tends to completely overshadow others in utility.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:41 pm

Elennsar wrote:A question or three.

The overwhelming majority of the tales of fighting against the Enemy have to do with Men and Elves.

Should Dwarves be possible PCs at all?

Yes.
Dwarves are referenced in the First Age...King Azghal, who seriously wounded Glaurung the Dragon; Telchar the Smith, who wrought Narsil. They're not as preeminent as Elves and Men, but they should (IMO) be available.

Also, how do we intend to handle that elves are mightier then Men?

It seems that while "Elves" have an edge on "Men", individual heroes are roughly equivalant...Aragorn and Legolas, for instance, to refer to the Third Age.

My opinion:
We don't.
PC Men are Heroes, and as such, as the equals of the Eldar. Consider Hurin, Turin, Beren, Tuor...all equal to the Elven-Lord in all significant aspects.

The majority of NPC Men are inferior to the majority of NPC Elves, but the game's not about them. By definition, it's about exceptional heroes.

Also, just how high power (relative to ordinary warriors) are our heroes, anyway? We know for certain that a hero cannot match an army, but a hero is a mighty presence within one.

A good question...
I think it depends heavily on the system we use. For example, in Savage Worlds, all the PCs (and Hero-scale NPCs) would be Wild Cards, while the common dross of Arda would be Extras.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:53 am

Talisman wrote:The majority of NPC Men are inferior to the majority of NPC Elves, but the game's not about them. By definition, it's about exceptional heroes.

Did you forget you're talking to Elennsar, for whom that argument's specifically invalid? Men aren't men to any meaningful extent if they don't suck next to elves; in that case, it's just a word on a character sheet.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:37 am

If you're just here to insult people, Bigode, please leave.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:08 am

Summarizing someone's position, without even using any profanity, is not an "insult". It's conceivably unnecessarily *aggressive* if it's out of context, but an accurate paraphrase of someone's opinion literally can't be an insult.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:30 am

All right, let me rephrase that:

If you're just here to reiterate your view of Elennsar's view, and not contribute anything meaningful to the topic of this thread, then please leave. You have dozens of threads to dissect Elennsar in. This one's for Middle-Earth, which you have mentioned disliking.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:43 am

My opinion:
We don't.
PC Men are Heroes, and as such, as the equals of the Eldar. Consider Hurin, Turin, Beren, Tuor...all equal to the Elven-Lord in all significant aspects.

Ja. I can think of a few ways Elves have advantages Men don't, but it never seems that say, Beren, and say Beleg, are playing on a significantly different level (picking two heroes who never crossed paths, I'm making an observation, not a set of balanced PCs).

Maybe Beleg has some advantage from the fact Elves have fantastic eyesight. Fine.

So?

That's the best I can determine, it certainly never winds up as "there's no reason not to do all elves". Ever. You could, certainly, but the greatest heroes of the Edain compare fairly well with the majority of elves (though say, Fingolfin, will kick Beren's ass, Fingolfin and his like are built on more points to begin with. Beleg, not really.)

Elves do seem to handle injury a bit better ( recovering from, to be precise) and do seem to be better at the Loremaster role, but that may just be that we don't see any humans who took it in the First Age, not that humans would be bad at if they did.

Its not a huge advantage, and it seems clear that sword to sword, bow to bow, the numbers are close enough to not be important.

Boolean: Your "summarizing" is inaccurate. And as Talisman said, if you're not here to help, stay out.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:43 am

If you're just here to reiterate your view of Elennsar's view, and not contribute anything meaningful to the topic of this thread, then please leave. You have dozens of threads to dissect Elennsar in. This one's for Middle-Earth, which you have mentioned disliking.

He might just be trying to warn you that taking this position with Elennsar has turned previous threads into massive flamefests before. Of course, since Elennsar seems to agree in this case that the source material makes "heroic Men" the equal of "heroic Elves," that's probably not going to be a problem here.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:49 am

Or he might be trying to demonstrate that he can't tell the difference between arguing that if "elf" means nothing whatsoever, there's something wrong, and that ELVES ARE BETTER ALWAYS.

I'm fine with elves being no better then men overall. I'm not fine with "elf" being exactly the same even if elves are supposed to have an advantage at something or a disadvantage or whatever.

As stated, LotR elves do appear to have far better eyesight (at a distance) than Men. I would be annoyed if that didn't get included, the fact that Beleg and Turin are roughly equal characters overall is NOT a problem.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:51 am

Elennsar wrote:And as Talisman said, if you're not here to help, stay out.

I wanted just this sentence. Remember it next time you're about to wreck a thread elsewhere.

Due thanks for Mr. Anderson and Absentminded's valuable contributions.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:02 am

Remember next time you decide to be a flaming hypocrite who has no problem being an asshole but has a problem with someone expressing their dislike of something that isn't marked as "those who do not want this at all, stay out".

Emperor forbid someone express the idea that instead of doing Y doing X should be done in any way or at any time.

We might actually have discussion between different viewpoints.

Since you have provided no help either in general or in regards to this in specific, congradulations for figuring out how to avoid the appearance of spam while performing the function.

So, regarding elves: What exactly do elves get as racial features anyway?

Being good looking isn't worth noting as a real ability. Not unless I overlooked something where it influenced something that someone was.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:09 am

Elennsar wrote:Remember next time you decide to be a flaming hypocrite who has no problem being an asshole but has a problem with someone expressing their dislike of something that isn't marked as "those who do not want this at all, stay out".

Since you have provided no help either in general or in regards to this in specific, congratulations for figuring out how to avoid the appearance of spam while performing the function.

In case you didn't notice, this forum's made of flaming assholes. Most of them know when their personal preferences aren't relevant to a thread, enough so to sometimes voice it anyway but never drag it though 10 pages. So no hypocrisy involved. As for whatever you mean with "not contributing in general", must be hilarious from you anyway given that your contribution's negative - last I checked, the spammer was you.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:17 am

Should put that in the CoC: Thou shalt not disagree with the popular view, for such is spam. Thou shalt assume that all threads are to be exclusively for one view and one view only, and any view that questions that shall be spam.

And speaking of things that should be done, this thread should go back to discussing Middle Earth...so to repeat:

So, regarding elves: What exactly do elves get as racial features anyway?

Being good looking isn't worth noting as a real ability. Not unless I overlooked something where it influenced something that someone was.

Elves don't appear (contrary to the impression one might get from LotR) particularly resistant to cold weather, so that's out.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:31 am

How about the just-mentioned distinction between voicing a preference and dragging it single-handedly through 10 pages, with no benefit for anyone ensuing?

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:41 am

Which is what you're doing, Bigode.
I've asked nicely. Now get out and stop trolling.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:41 am

My response for the forseeable future to any nonMiddle Earth posts in this thread. Whatever they are. Unless they involve lolcats.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:47 am

You've made your point, Bigode. I'm actually vaguely interested in this project and want them to get on with it.