Breaking magic away from classes

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:39 am

Psychic Robot wrote:I have no respect for retards who play out power fantasies with their characters.

Actually, it's you missing a point - that I mean the other players. And if I explicitly had no respect for a given munchkin, guess I'd boot them.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:40 am

PhoneLobster wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:Your second complaint is that magic gets to be more powerful than completely useless background skills.

Solution: None needed.
Well you lose, you fail and nothing more you can say on the topic, or much of game design in general, matters then I guess?

After all there is NO way that sort of attitude is going to provide anything short of the most incredibly retarded "solution". Hmm let me try?

"Hey OP, you should do it by allowing some fighter characters to take Proffession (Basketweaver) Ranks and other fighter characters to get full wizard spell casting instead!"

Yeah that is FUCKING STUPID actually isn't it?

So is comparing magic of any level to one of the most literally useless skills in the game.

Compare it to Tumble or Spot and then we can talk.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:45 am

The problem is that THE d20 system (not a system using d20s) has a totally unbalanced off the RNG bullshit skill system.

Then I misunderstood.

Well you lose, you fail and nothing more you can say on the topic, or much of game design in general, matters then I guess?

After all there is NO way that sort of attitude is going to provide anything short of the most incredibly retarded "solution". Hmm let me try?

"Hey OP, you should do it by allowing some fighter characters to take Proffession (Basketweaver) Ranks and other fighter characters to get full wizard spell casting instead!"

Yeah that is FUCKING STUPID actually isn't it?

No, what's fucking stupid is your idea that Profession needs to be as powerful as another skill. Not everyone plays a character because it's the most powerful, or else everyone would play wizards, clerics, and druids. If a character wants to put all his ranks into crap skills, then he's going to suck at skills.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:52 am

Bigode wrote:Actually, it's you missing a point - that I mean the other players. And if I explicitly had no respect for a given munchkin, guess I'd boot them.

Basically, I missed the point because you missed the point and because your ability to communicate is effectively that of a middle-schooler.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:55 am

Let's pretend that's the reason (hell, let's disregard even your fantasy about d20s). Not even thinking addressing the point now, right? Will it have to sing in front of you?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:59 am

I'll break this down into nice, easy chunks for you.

1. PR says, "Blah-blah-blah, if everyone's overpowered, then it doesn't matter."
2. Bigode tries to correct PR, fails to see the point, and then comments on how PR has no respect for "his" players.
3. PR assumes that "his" players means that he's the DM, because anyone with a basic understanding of how to tlak gud Engrish would realize that such a term indicates "ownership"--in this case, heading the group.
4. Bigode trumpets his fail about how PR is dumb and missed the point because he can't communicate worth a shit.
5. PR points this out to Bigode.
6. Bigode says, "UR NOT ADDRESSING THE POINT."
7. PR replies with this post.

WHAT WILL BIGODE SAY NEXT?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:01 am

Talisman wrote:So is comparing magic of any level to one of the most literally useless skills in the game.

Compare it to Tumble or Spot and then we can talk.

That is simply being needlessly belligerent and nit picky. Spot and tumble both utterly suck compared to magic as well, meanwhile picking profession as an example is entirely valid because we really don't have permission to stick our heads up our asses and pretend the really crap options don't exist.

If skill ranks=real full class type magic power, then that is literally the option you have, profession, or balance, or UMD or real magic full class type magic power.

That isn't a balanced system, the fact that is isn't a balanced system and is full of crap options BEFORE adding a new even more unbalanced option does not ameliorate the situation in any form.

Anyway, all in all the fact that Proffession (yo' mamma) exists at all is a crime of stupidity and we should take every opportunity to mention it.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:05 am

Psychic Robot wrote:No, what's fucking stupid is your idea that Profession needs to be as powerful as another skill. Not everyone plays a character because it's the most powerful, or else everyone would play wizards, clerics, and druids. If a character wants to put all his ranks into crap skills, then he's going to suck at skills.

This deserves one of those utterly arrogant postings of a fail picture, or better yet a fail based lol cat.

But there isn't one humiliating enough for what that statement deserves.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:13 am

PhoneLobster wrote:we really don't have permission to stick our heads up our asses and pretend the really crap options don't exist.

Sure we do.
When was the last time a PC of yours took Profession?
I ignore it when making PCs. Page 80 of the PHB is blank to me.

Anyway, all in all the fact that Proffession (yo' mamma) exists at all is a crime of stupidity and we should take every opportunity to mention it.

So...you recommend trumpeting stupidity at every opportunity?
I prefer to avoid it, myself.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:28 am

Psychic Robot wrote:WHAT WILL BIGODE SAY NEXT?

Likely something along the lines that I wouldn't even need to specifically point out the consequences of powergaming masturbation to other players present to someone not retarded.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:29 am

Have you forgotten the 2-point professions?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:38 am

Talisman wrote:So...you recommend trumpeting stupidity at every opportunity?
I prefer to avoid it, myself.

OK then, bury your head in the sand and pretend the crappy skill doesn't exist.

Then you can use that as an excuse to bury you head in the sand and pretend that skill based spell casting is somehow more OK because profession can't possible really exist lalalalala you can't hear it etc...

Well done.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:22 am

I presume you scream "Toughness! Toughness!" in any discussions of feats as well. Because if one aspect of one subsystem of a game is crap, it is your moral duty to shove it in the faces of all and sundry at every opportunity, correct?

Have fun with that,

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:53 am

Phone Lobster --

Actually, PL, I don't know of any spell in core that replicates the effects of Tumble below spell level 8. Spot... is similarly difficult to do without, though there are a number of splatbook tricks for trumping it.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:04 am

You don't have to exactly replicate a skill to make it look comparatively weak.

Tumble is easily weaker than any number of spell based mobility effects, do I NEED to list anything other than Fly? Do I need to point out the benefits of say Invisibility as a means of avoiding those same AoOs?

Do I need to point out that a skill that provides honest to god spell casting in general gives you both those things and much much more?

Go ahead and tell me the wizard class sucks because tumble and spot aren't on their spell list. It'll be hilarious.

Now in the mean time you could try and tone down your magic system until it equalled the miiiiiiighty tumble skill in it's power and versatility.

But that's just ridiculous.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:06 am

Srsly PL, wizards suck because tumble and spot aren't on the spell lists. Srsly.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:08 am

Talisman wrote:I presume you scream "Toughness! Toughness!" in any discussions of feats as well.

Er yes?

I mean when someone says "We should retool magic to be equal in power to the feat system" for instance the first thing I or any right minded person would remind them of is that the feat system includes Toughness and Weapon Focus.

What do you do, immediately tell them that's cool because as far as you care to know no feat is weaker than a 5/day spell like of Wish (or rather aptly "Wishful thinking") you once wrote up?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:34 am

Psychic Robot wrote: Basically, I missed the point because you missed the point and because your ability to communicate is effectively that of a middle-schooler.

I missed the point that you missed the point because Big missed the point.
Actually, I lost track of what you meant in the first place.
Going back to reread thread...

OK. Found the gem.

Talisman wrote:
PhoneLobster wrote:we really don't have permission to stick our heads up our asses and pretend the really crap options don't exist.
Sure we do.
When was the last time a PC of yours took Profession?
I ignore it when making PCs. Page 80 of the PHB is blank to me.

I'll second that.
The last time a friend (and only 1 ever did) even dabbled in the skill they ended up wasting points and swapped it out for something else combat-related.

I'll go with K's concept of a separate-yet-parallel track for NPC/noncombat abilities, maybe even advancing as by in-character time invested rather than as by level, making that 50-year old Farmer Mattias damned good at Profession (Farmer) while Guts the Fighter can't reap worth shit unless he gives up demon-slaying for months of drudgery in the field.

... but if you want to stick with by-the-book discussions then no, indeed, I never take Craft, Profession, or Perform (Poopsculpt), and probably better off without it.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:16 am

PhoneLobster wrote:This deserves one of those utterly arrogant postings of a fail picture, or better yet a fail based lol cat.

But there isn't one humiliating enough for what that statement deserves.

Instead of addressing the point, you say nothing at all.

(Is that what you were looking for?)

Bigode wrote:Likely something along the lines that I wouldn't even need to specifically point out the consequences of powergaming masturbation to other players present to someone not retarded.

Your sentence amuses.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:37 am

TarkisFlux wrote:Srsly PL, wizards suck because tumble and spot aren't on the spell lists. Srsly.

See. That was hilarious.

PsychoRobot wrote:Instead of addressing the point, you say nothing at all.

There was no point only the insane verbal diarrhoea of game balance hatred.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:38 am

Yes. I hate game balance because I want to keep background skills in the game.

...I think I might need to post that picture again.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:47 am

Personally, I say a feat is worth a domain worth of spells.

And lo, it is. In my games, at least.

-Crissa

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:54 am

Psychic Robot wrote:Yes. I hate game balance because I want to keep background skills in the game.

You are just being a shit aren't you?

Because that is very much NOT what you said. You said it was OK for a player to trade profession ranks for being a fucking wizard you dick.

What's wrong? Been banned from all the other boards and this is the only place left where you can blatantly troll?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:04 am

Give me more of your screaming shitfits, PL! Don't stop now--give me more! I need your face all scrunched up, beet red with nerd rage as I dare suggest that a spellcasting mechanic based on skill checks might be implemented into the d20 system.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:22 am

Now, if we can keep the histrionics down for about ten seconds, let's examine the possibility of a skill-based magic system. Despite the ridiculous spazzing, PL has a point: skills are too easily boosted in 3e. Possible solution?

a) Make it so that your Spellcasting skill can't be boosted by anything outside of skill ranks and Skill Focus, or

b) Make the Spellcasting skill kind of a skill but not quite.

I vote for b. Thus, we won't go with a skill-based system, exactly. Instead, the Loremaster (we'll call him that, as someone suggested) makes a Spellcasting check: 1d20 + his level + 3. (Add in a key ability modifier if ye so wish.) This determines the effects of his spells.

Normally, non-spellcasters can't make this check. To do this, they take a feat, something like "Diligent Student," which allows them to cast spells. However, their Spellcasting check only receives a bonus equal to 1/2 their level + 1 (or thereabouts). They could take other feats to boost this, perhaps up to a maximum skill check equal to their level (at a time when that would be more than "1/2 their level + 1").

This gives everyone fairly easy access to spells without giving them "wizard casting for Profession."

Now, the problem would come in determining how spells are cast:

--Do characters prepare them, or are they spontaneous?
--How many spells can characters prepare/how many do they know?
--How do we appropriately weaken spells to conform to this system?
--What other restrictions might there be on spellcasting?