Putting the transmut back in transmutation

Gelare · Post by **Gelare** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:37 pm

You know, one of the things some people like about 4th edition over 3rd is that not every character gets to fly around like Superman all the time. (At least, I assume this is one of their reasons. On a scale from 1-10 in objection quality it ranks roughly around "ridiculous", which is a slight improvement over "indefensible" or "you should be shot".) And in a way, it makes sense. I mean, Superman can totally do his thing, but does anyone around here watch Heroes? Every time I see Nathan's ridiculous flying stance it makes me want to have his character killed. (I feel this way about Claire and Mohinder, too, but for different reasons.) Now imagine a skirmish between two adventuring parties, all flying around like Superman, or worse, like Nathan. It is a bit silly.

Now imagine a skirmish between an elite strike team of angels vs. some flying demons guarding the gates of hell. They all fly around in exactly the same patterns, but it's way cooler. A lot of magic is invisible in D&D, and I don't really know why - personally, I think it would be cooler if normal folks can look at someone with twenty buffs and recognize that they should run in the other direction, rather than the person appearing completely normal to natural sight. And really, if the school of magic is called transmutation, why doesn't it actually transmute anything? Invisible forces that lift you up and make you fly are evocations. Growing wings is a transmutation. So:

Fly makes you grow actual wings. They sprout from your back, or your arms, or your red hat.

Spider Climb causes four(ish) extra limbs to erupt from your torso. They are long, black, thin, hairy, oddly jointed, and have no opposable thumbs, making you wonder whether the creator of owlbears is back to his old tricks again.

Bear's/Bull's/Cat's/Eagle's/Fox's/Owl's Cunning/Endurance/Grace/Splendor/Strength/Wisdom. You're a furry. Congratulations.

Water Breathing causes large gills to appear on your neck.

Air Breathing causes you to grow lungs. I'm told this is very weird in fish societies.

And so on.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:33 pm

you are thinking of the alchemical definition of transmutation -- "changing of one substance into another"

What's becoming the wings, the gills, the lungs, etc...

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:39 pm

I think he's thinking that it's mainly flavor that needs to be changed.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:45 pm

Well, it's largely flavor, but not entirely. If fly is just wings that sprout from your back, you can have those wings bound or otherwise physically suppressed and the spell is temporarily dead. Same thing with the rest...

Which is why I'm still kicking it around. The flavor changes aren't a big deal, the mechanical changes they open up I'm mulling over.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:00 pm

In 3.0, you can do that with polymorph. By Raw, there needs to be a regular race somewhere in the universe that maches that description, but roi is hard to determine.

I had a magic user in frank's campaign that did exactly that.

-Crissa

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:53 am

Everyone sprouting wings is definitely cool. That being said, the flight in Slayers is also good, with people just hovering, then darting about the place in the air with their mandatory cloaks.

I can certainly see gills for water breathing and spider legs for spider climb, but the (Animal's) (Characteristic) spells, not so much. Particularly the mental ones. I more see BS bulking you out with rippling biceps, CG making you a little bit more lithe, trimming your form to be "athletic and toned", and BE adding a little bit more mass to you.

Otherwise, just casting the standard array of buffs will make you look like Pantyhose Taro (SFW), which may or may not be considered a good thing.

Gelare · Post by **Gelare** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:13 am

Not all those ideas are gold, I'll admit, but what do you guys think? Is it actually better to have a game where any random person walking down the street could secretly be sporting enough buffs to pick up a castle and fly it across the continent - which, by the way, is an actual, real advantage, both so that people have to expend magical resources scanning anyone who wants to go in to speak with the king, and also because it means the heroes don't scare the peasants half to death when they come marching into town - or should magical effects be obvious and flashy, like growing actual wings?

Also, if anyone has any other ideas for spells and matching effects, feel free to post them.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:08 am

It depends.

I would personally say this: If someone can pass for human in terms of how powerful they are, they should appear human. Maybe some vibe, but nothing flashy.

If someone is bigger than that, but not something most people would say "This is a god.", some flashiness.

If someone is a full fledged god (or appears that way), short of deliberately toning down the effects, it should be obvious.

So having fly on granting wings makes sense, but Bear's etc. might just be a vibe if even that.

Protection from ____ or holy aura (etc.) would glow with the fitting color, for instance.

So protection from Evil you glow with a holy white light, blue for from chaos, red from law, black from good.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:16 am

Elennsar, you're missing the point.

-Crissa

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:41 am

Which point? That "better for the game" was left undefined with intent of people asking what he meant before having any ideas on what would be better?

And what's wrong with suggesting visible effects for other spells than trasmutation? If this is "only transmutation spells have visible effects", Gelare could (and should) have said so.

norms29 · Post by **norms29** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:55 am

I'm also curious about what you think the point was, Crissa.

the points I can Identify are
1. the OP asked what the Board thinks of making buffs have openly visible signs of their effects.

2. what are the potential consequences of this? Pro and Con.

and a distant third, 3. Hey, the transmutation school doesn't really transmute people.

and while Elennsar didn't address the vague observation which might be called the third point, he did make a suggestion on buff visiblity; if the target of the buff can pass for a slightly better unbuffed person (like a stat boost), then the buff shouldn't be immedietly apparent. if it confers some ability not avalible to a mundane (like flying) then NPCs should be able to see that.

I for one consider that a totally reasonable proposal.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:01 am

Well, I don't have any particular thoughts in favor or against it transmuting people. You would have to deal with the fact having actual wings, for instance, would involve (at best) "How big are they?", and such.

Is that a bad thing? Not really. But is that a good thing? Maybe.

It has more to do with "do we want the consequences, positive and otherwise?" than anything else, at least from what I see.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:32 am

Transmutation implies a change from one state to another. So the OP said that they would like those spells to actually change you physically. It gets to the idea that each school of magic manipulates things in a different way, Evocation creates energy from nothing, Conjuration either creates or moves matter, Transmutation causes the form of something to change, ect.
Elennsar missed the point. Again. By now it really doesn't surprise me when he gets around to derailing threads just by posting in them.
I guess that I really don't have my enjoyment of the game or my suspension of disbelief hindered by not having the spells work like that. While I could see coming up with flavor for the spells, the work will be wasted. People will reinvent the spells as they wish. If I want to use Transmutation spells this way, either for a PC or as a DM, I would make my own flavor for only the spells that I plan to use; Because no one will ever agree with all of my choices as to how to portray the spells, and that doesn't really change the rules one bit, I don't see the point to covering my ass in this.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:33 pm

I thought the point (at least in part) was coolness. Growing wings has better visuals than hovering. (imo, etc, etc)

Akula wrote:While I could see coming up with flavor for the spells, the work will be wasted.

I think it's good to have the default flavour be flavoursome. If the default flavour of Fly is that an invisible force moves you around, then many people will stick to that by default. Those who put effort in to specify that their version of fly makes them grow wings are at a tactical disadvantage, as enemies can see that they can fly, and their wings could be bound, and so forth.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:17 pm

Gelare this is very Potterish but fits with K's expectation that capabilities should be visible or at least apparent.

However, using a Necromantic or Conjurative Fly might have other physical signs.
Namely, being carried aloft by imps, cherubs/puti, or (somehow non-fatal by touch) wraiths.

Bull's STR and similar "strength buffs" should have the thematic option of either furrism or Hulk Out as by DBZ muscle surges.
Hnngnggngghh! Huge HUGE HUGE GRAAARGH!
Likewise, DEX buff gives you pointed ears and CON buff sprouts you a beard.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:41 am

Hmm...If we made a bunch of spells that crossed schools depending on the way the effect was described; it would be interesting, maybe not horribly useful, but fun for the narrative. It wouldn't be all that hard even.

You have a point about the default flavor. I just don't see why you can't have fly moved to evocation and have a create wings spell take its place in transmutation. The wings would be obvious and could be hindered much more easily through mundane means, but it would have a corresponding set of minor benefits.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:54 am

Akula wrote:Hmm...If we made a bunch of spells that crossed schools depending on the way the effect was described; it would be interesting, maybe not horribly useful, but fun for the narrative. It wouldn't be all that hard even.

The school divisions are already blurred more than enough. For one, yay advanced learning classes getting free power. So at least make those be different in some way - perhaps as per the quote below.

Akula wrote:You have a point about the default flavor. I just don't see why you can't have fly moved to evocation and have a create wings spell take its place in transmutation. The wings would be obvious and could be hindered much more easily through mundane means, but it would have a corresponding set of minor benefits.

Heh, visible and vulnerable to anyone with opposable thumbs, and just minor benefits?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:13 am

Bigode wrote:
Akula wrote:Hmm...If we made a bunch of spells that crossed schools depending on the way the effect was described; it would be interesting, maybe not horribly useful, but fun for the narrative. It wouldn't be all that hard even.
The school divisions are already blurred more than enough. For one, yay advanced learning classes getting free power. So at least make those be different in some way - perhaps as per the quote below.

OK so then why not define spells by the schools they AREN'T allowed, if there's so much crossover?

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:47 am

sigma999 wrote:OK so then why not define spells by the schools they AREN'T allowed, if there's so much crossover?

That could be done, sure, but: a) doing it in itself (prior to actually worrying about damage control) would take lots of work, b) categorizing spells allowed for each advanced learning class (and other stuff, such as PrC features) would take still more, and c) classes would become less distinct (and very arguably the ones that were most versatile already). BTW, that'd sure invoke your fear of optimization opportunities.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:54 am

I am fearless on the matter.

It would be simple with a smaller number of spells, a matter of which I am certainly not responsible for (concerning the 1000+ spell mess that is 3e)

It would be like this:
"Banned: Divination"
Rather than this:
"School: Evocation"
Which means that if all you know is Divinations, the spell is inaccessable to you.

If you're looking for Franklike Sphere-style spell access this method won't be for you.
Perhaps I've been playing too much Dungeon Crawl.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:02 am

sigma999 wrote:I am fearless on the matter.

Only because you're proposing it now instead of seeing the results. Remember your claims of being surprised by CO? Possible example: get together a source that boosts evocation because it's crap and a non-crap spell that starts being allowed to count as evocation.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:09 am

Bigode wrote:
sigma999 wrote:I am fearless on the matter.
Only because you're proposing it now instead of seeing the results. Remember your claims of being surprised by CO? Possible example: get together a source that boosts evocation because it's crap and a non-crap spell that starts being allowed to count as evocation.

Oh, all the time. With every new situation I'm hoping, praying, just for once d20 can actually accomplish something without flying off the deep end of RNG or infinite loops...

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:40 pm

If you make every spell average, say, four schools, with a few special spells that only belong to one, then you could probably balance it by banning nonspecialist wizards, and only allowing specialists to cast in-school.

Of course, you're getting into redesign territory here.