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norms29
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Post by norms29 »

MartinHarper wrote:
Elennsar wrote:It may be a result of misreading or mistyping rather than anyone intending it, but it is implied that if you face one 50-50 encounter, winning a second is somehow less likely.
Where is that implied?
Flennsar's claim here actually might be (although it probably isn't) legitimate, if we adopt a sufficently insane definition of "implied"

At the begining of this discussion we were using terminology drawn from the actual study of probability. the "Natural language" interpretation of those words might be ambigous (although I doubt it).
The rest of us are fine with this because we all understand the terminology, as does anyone who graduated highschool.
Actually; I'm begining to get curious about the average age of us Denners (Denites? Denizens?), because a number of Elennsar's behavioral traits and the odd gaps in his knowledge have lead me to suspect that he is actually a small child, instead of an adult Jackass as we seem to have assued.

EDIT: WOOHOO!!! top of the page!
Last edited by norms29 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

I think I'll call him Elminster from now on.
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Post by Elennsar »

Flennsar's claim here actually might be (although it probably isn't) legitimate, if we adopt a sufficently insane definition of "implied"
Implied:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/imply

4: to express indirectly <his silence implied consent>

The idea that 10 95% chances are as bad as 1 55% chance implies (#4) what I said it implied.

No whacky definition necessary.
Actually; I'm begining to get curious about the average age of us Denners (Denites? Denizens?), because a number of Elennsar's behavioral traits and the odd gaps in his knowledge have lead me to suspect that he is actually a small child, instead of an adult Jackass as we seem to have assued.
A number of your (plural) traits indicate that you are teenagers who think that being rude and insulting and obnoxious is the same as being "adult", because only children have to behave, or something to that effect.
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Post by IGTN »

Four 55% chances, taken together, are a 95% chance, yes.

But, if you go through the first one, you don't have four chances anymore. You have three, and so you have a better chance at making the last three together. Once you've gone through three, if we assume you've won all of them (9% chance there), your chance of completing the sequence is 55%.

Probability only cares about the relevant events ahead of you.

Try this simple experiment:
1) Grab a fair coin
2) Note down the probabilities of it coming up heads or tails on your next flip.
3) Flip the coin and look at it. If it lands on edge, wait for it to fall on one side before landing
4) Note the probabilities for your previous flip. Repeatedly check what this result was without disturbing the coin.

Try it for yourself. Once you're done, then you can check it against theory:
You should get a 50-50 chance in (2). However, every result that you get for (4) should be the same; you should not get a 50-50 distribution.

This is because known events in the past don't have probabilities; something either happened or it didn't, and, for a known event, you know whether it happened or it didn't, and it doesn't change.

This means that if you have a 50% chance of losing an encounter, after the encounter is completed, you either won or lost; it is no longer subject to probability.
What does this mean, then, about a series of chances? The probability of a series of random events happening is different before the series of chances starts, compared to midway through the series. Flipping all heads happens 1 in 16 times when you decide to flip a (perfect) coin four times, but it happens a full half the time on your last flip after just having flipped three heads in a row.
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Post by Draco_Argentum »

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:No, I am just tired of you thinking that being insulting will somehow surmount any and all of my objections to your comments and I will bow before Math, which will always explain everything, and no campaign will ever have improbable consequences.
Oh, I doubt anyone thinks that calling Elennsar a high school dropout is going to convince him. But hopefully anyone else who has trouble with simple maths reading this decides not to post here.

He seriously just tried to claim that the fact that several good chance encounters ends up being a bad overall chance is an implication that latter encounters are harder.

norms, if that is the case I pity his maths teacher.

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Post by Elennsar »

What does this mean, then, about a series of chances? The probability of a series of random events happening is different before the series of chances starts, compared to midway through the series. Flipping all heads happens 1 in 16 times when you decide to flip a (perfect) coin four times, but it happens a full half the time on your last flip after just having flipped three heads in a row.
So the probability of -in actual play- winning a series of 50-50 (or whatever) encounters is higher, because in order to have a series (more than one), one of those encounters has to have gone your way, and then each comes as 50-50 individually...and since unlike a coin flip, you can do things that will make any given exchange not 50-50...supposedly, if spear and sword are (as styles) balanced against each other, you can push it so that your non +/- advantage with a spear is more important about as easily as the other guy can with his sword's non +/- advantage.

If you do so, you get in a much better position, even though numerically you hit the same amount of the time vs. the same AC and such.

Or to put it another way, having a 50% chance of dying if I jump in a pit means a hell of a lot less if "I walk around the pit." is an option if I take the time to look for a route (instead of assuming there is none or rushing to get over the pit without looking around).

Facing that kind of 50% chance of dying/losing is something I'm pretty confident in, because "stick head in lion's mouth" is not my only choice.
Last edited by Elennsar on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by IGTN »

I'm using a 50-50 encounter to mean more than die rolls. If attacking a monster with the wrong tactics is an auto-lose, and fighting it with the right tactics is an auto-win, and you're 50% likely to blunder into the right tactics, then you have a 50% chance of winning.

If an encounter is 50% lose by choosing your actions at random (out of the list of what is not obviously stupid), and 30% lose with good tactics, and you're 90% likely to see and apply good tactics, then your 5% to lose it with your bad tactics, 27% likely to lose it despite your good tactics, 5% likely to win in spite of bad tactics, and 63% likely to win with good tactics; it totals to a 32% chance of loss, not a 50% chance of loss.

This assumes that the DM planned the enemy's tactics in advance, maybe with a few contingencies.

Now let's look at this part:
So the probability of -in actual play- winning a series of 50-50 (or whatever) encounters is higher, because in order to have a series (more than one), one of those encounters has to have gone your way, and then each comes as 50-50 individually
Completely and utterly wrong.

Let's take this through with baby steps through an example here. The DM plans a series of four encounters, each 50-50, because that makes the math easy. Let's assume a loss stops you.
Encounter 1: 50% chance of loss, 50% chance to go on to encounter 2.

Encounter 2: If you see it, you have a 50% chance to go on to encounter 3, and a 50% chance to lose. Because your chance of having lost already and never actually seeing this encounter is 50%, to take into account that possibility, you have to multiply all of the chances here by 0.5. Half the time, you've lost before you get to see this encounter, and half the time when you haven't (a total of 25% of the time), you lose here (75% of the time total).

Encounter 3: You have a 25% chance of seeing this encounter. If you see it, you have a 50% chance to see encounter 4. Taking your losses into account, that means that you have a 1-in-8 chance of seeing encounter 4. From a perspective at the start, you have a 6-in-8 chance (3-in-4, but I'm keeping denominators consistent within an encounter) of not even getting here, and a 1-in-8 chance of not making it past here (half of the remaining chance).

Encounter 4: If you do see this encounter, you have a 1-in-2 chance of winning. Taking your chances of loss into account, you have a 1-in-16 chance of winning. Looking from the beginning, you have a 14-in-16 (7-in-8) chance of not making it here, and a 1-in-16 chance of failing here.

If you play 1,600 groups through this adventure, and they fall roughly according to probability distribution, then only about 100 of those groups will have made it through. More than 90% of your playerbase never will make it to the end.

A series of 50-50 chances means that half the time (half of all groups, in our sample) you don't get a series of encounters from the players' perspective, yes, because you got stabbed to death in the face in the first one. You still have a series of encounters from the DM's perspective, because the DM had to write their notes, or read the adventure, or whatever. From their perspective, there is a series of encounters even if the PCs are a pile of corpses in a roadside drainage ditch after the first encounter.
Last edited by IGTN on Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Elennsar »

I'm using a 50-50 encounter to mean more than die rolls. If attacking a monster with the wrong tactics is an auto-lose, and fighting it with the right tactics is an auto-win, and you're 50% likely to blunder into the right tactics, then you have a 50% chance of winning.
Since the average player may or may not be 50% likely to notice, designing the odds based around player competence as a primary factor is going to lead to some groups doing a lot better than others.
Encounter 2: If you see it, you have a 50% chance to go on to encounter 3, and a 50% chance to lose. Because your chance of having lost already and never actually seeing this encounter is 50%, to take into account that possibility, you have to multiply all of the chances here by 0.5. Half the time, you've lost before you get to see this encounter, and half the time when you haven't (a total of 25% of the time), you lose here (75% of the time total).
The half the time when you haven't is a time that whether you can win this encounter literally with your eyes closed or not won't come up, though.
If you play 1,600 groups through this adventure, and they fall roughly according to probability distribution, then only about 100 of those groups will have made it through. More than 90% of your playerbase never will make it to the end.
Sounds like we have actual odds, instead of 1600/1600 making it through short of grossly stupid decisions.

Now, if the idea is that one failure = you lose, and that you need a high chance of avoiding making that failure to last, I don't disagree. What I do disagree is with how "you're more likely to be one of the 1500, so you are being a math challenged idiot to say "Alright, let's try this.""

Last time I checked, a good part of the fun in gaming is whether or not you win or lose. Yes, you want to have reasonable (whatever that means) odds, but you want to enjoy -what you're doing-, not to have wins that are boring and meaningless or losses that are depressing (as in cause depression).

Also, if you own a copy of Sword and Fist, how close to even a fight would you say The Duel is (mechanically)?

If you don't, I'll PM (unless it violates some law worthy of respect) the stats we get.

But that to me is a much better encounter than the one before it (where the NPC is incompetently played, if nothing else).
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Post by Kaelik »

Guys, contrary to the common misconception. Elminster doesn't actually support the gamblers fallacy.

His problem is that he is seriously incapable of understanding that multiple iterations of probability should be multiplied to create a probability of the whole.

His claim is that given a campaign in which each fight has a 50% chance of TPK, and the campaign is 260 fights long, therefore, the party has a 50% chance of beating the campaign.

Go back to explaining iterative probability, that's what he needs.
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Post by Elennsar »

Go back to the part where you mistook "lose" with people actually able to die for TPK and try again.

I don't think there's a 50% chance of winning a campaign in which each encounter is 50%, but "winning 260 encounters" meaning "winning a campaign"...or any number, is not a set up I'd want to deal with.

I'd much rather have "win the crucial encounter/s" then "win 'em all".

Perfectly possible to lose eight encounters, win five , lose two, win three, and win the campaign.

Have to -survive- them all, but not win them all.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Kaelik wrote: Go back to explaining iterative probability, that's what he needs.
I think Frank is right and he's just being difficult for the sake of it.

Because seriously whenever you try to pin him down, he just makes some shit nitpick argument to dodge the topic, like changing it from "lose" the encounter instead of "die", when he damn well knows we're talking about survival.
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Post by virgil »

After having vaguely perused the entirely too many pages since I officially left this thread...

Image
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Post by Elennsar »

Oh, right, because stating "30% of the time you'll face opponents who can beat you 50% of the time" will be perfectly true of an given campaign, and no railroading or artificially setting the encounters so that mysteriously the PCs never face more than the "right" amount of challenge is necessary.

I prefer having a campaign where we use something actually useful, and "win 50% of the time, so you win both of two 50% encounters 25% of the time, all three of three 12.5% of the time..." is not useful.

Nor is survive vs. die merely nitpicking.

If your point is that you cannot have a long campaign with odds against PC success, then that is true if characters are being eliminating, it is not true of they are merely failing and having to fall back, because winning every encounter isn't necessary for the campaign to continue.

If you are looking at my wishes in regards to a 50-50 fight with an equal, that is 50-50 of winning or losing, not "flip a coin. Tails, you die."

Virgileso: Your picture is broken.

So what are you doing? Are you arguing that a series of victories is impossible* and okay with the fact that one could do a perfectly fine long campaign as long as one didn't need a series of victories?

*: Close enough as to be "its not going to happen, even though it theoretically could".
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Draco_Argentum wrote:
Absentminded_Wizard wrote:No, I am just tired of you thinking that being insulting will somehow surmount any and all of my objections to your comments and I will bow before Math, which will always explain everything, and no campaign will ever have improbable consequences.
Oh, I doubt anyone thinks that calling Elennsar a high school dropout is going to convince him. But hopefully anyone else who has trouble with simple maths reading this decides not to post here.

He seriously just tried to claim that the fact that several good chance encounters ends up being a bad overall chance is an implication that latter encounters are harder.
Somehow, you ended up attaching my name to Elennsar's whining. And yeah, I'm among the people who tried to point out to him what "the dice have no memory" actually means.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Kaelik wrote:Guys, contrary to the common misconception. Elminster doesn't actually support the gamblers fallacy.

His problem is that he is seriously incapable of understanding that multiple iterations of probability should be multiplied to create a probability of the whole.

His claim is that given a campaign in which each fight has a 50% chance of TPK, and the campaign is 260 fights long, therefore, the party has a 50% chance of beating the campaign.

Go back to explaining iterative probability, that's what he needs.
Actually, he's done both in this thread. And half a dozen people have tried half a dozen different ways of explaining these basic concepts to him.

But I'm increasingly starting to agree with RC and Frank. Elennsar seems to look for things to nitpick in people's posts, rather than trying to understand people's points.
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Post by Elennsar »

Going "Uh huh. Yeah. What you said. Exactly. Right." a lot doesn't really add much to any discussion.

Thus my comments on the areas I do have something distinct to say on.

And if the difference between possible campaign with losing (but not necessarily dying) and possible campaign length with dying as the outcome in the equation is nitpicking, remind me to stay the hell out of your campaigns.

I don't believe that a campaign with a X percent chance of winning a given encounter equals an X percent chance of winning a given campaign.

I don't believe that having a nonzero chance of losing a given encounter means that unless you start at high and have many "no chance of losing" means that you'll lose the campaign.

And insisting that it does is running a kind of campaign that has no hope for anyone who can lose.

Some day, I intend to find out how anyone survives GURPS campaigns. It probably has to do with the fact an actual chance of something coming up can be prevented by several methods that don't eliminate the risk that you could actually die if the events that can cause death did come up, instead of eliminating "can cause death" from all rolls that can be made.

Certainly isn't rolls that can't be failed, though.
Last edited by Elennsar on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MartinHarper »

Elennsar wrote:Martin:
And you would get the same number of average survivals if you had everyone try roll a 9+ on a d20 to survive as if you had each of them make those 10 95% chances one at a time. Seriously. That's how risk works.
In two 50/50 encounters, 75% of the people will die. Not everyone, just three quarters of the people. As we've said, if you're fine with running a game where half the players have to make new characters every session, that is a perfectly acceptable mechanic.
Primarily the first.
The first is comparing the average chance of survival of:
a) rolling a single d20 and needing to get a 9+ (60% survival rate)
b) rolling ten d20s and needing to avoid any ones (~59.9% survival rate, by basic math)
Maybe you misread 9+ as 11+?

The second clearly states that over two 50/50 encounters then 75% of the people will die. It doesn't say that 75% of the people will die in the second of two 50/50 encounters.
Maybe you misread "In two 50/50 encounters" as "In the second of two 50/50 encounters"?

Perhaps you could apologise for the misreadings that caused you to mischaracterise the arguments of people on this thread?
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Post by Parthenon »

Okay, lets try this.
Elennsar wrote: Perfectly possible to lose eight encounters, win five , lose two, win three, and win the campaign.

Have to -survive- them all, but not win them all.
So, lets say we're playing this campaign. We average up the estimated chances of dying for each encounter. Lets give a random chance of, say, 5% chance of DEATH (not losing, but death).

So, there is 95% chance of living. The probability of this happening over the 18 encounters is 0.95^18 = 0.397214318, or about 40%. So, only about 2/5ths of the groups that play the campaign will win it.

If we only have 1% chance of death, the chance of winning is 0.834513761, or almost 85%.

If we have 1000 groups playing this campaign with 1% chance of death, then about 10 will lose the first encounter, 10 will lose the second, 10 will lose the third, 10 will lose the fourth, then ....
Basically, about 8-10 groups will die each encounter. This doesn't predict which groups will die, just that out of the 1000, 8-10 will die each encounter. You may be one of the groups that succeed, but there are groups that fail.


The difference between 1% chance of death on average and 5% death on average is about 45%. So, by increasing the chance of death by 5%, half as many groups win the campaign.

Again, because I think this is important, this is not about you and your group personally. Its about all the groups that play it. The difference between 15% of your market not liking it because they failed and 60% of your market not liking it because they failed makes the RPG in general not fun to play.
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Post by fbmf »

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
This thread is done.

For the record, the name calling and insults in general were totally not necessary.
[/TGFBS]
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