Making a Fantasy Game

[PhoneLobster]

You guys are rambling off course. Let me remind you.

Flying Islands.

Pretty much the same thing in their "dreaded physics explanation implications".

Ie just short of none.

No one cares how it works unless you make a big thing of it, at which point we assume that the big thing is an intended major element.

We even right now genuinely don't have an entirely accurate model of the formation and behaviour of OUR planets basic structure and behaviour. Until recently we had even less (it's really the last 50 years that have seen continental drift, at least some vague beginning of a model for the formation planets in general, and of the earth and moon in particular, etc...

None of that is stopping anyone from writing and playing fucking d20modern (if only it could).

[name_here]

No, not really.

See, they fly but don't effect local gravity in most instances. Gravity is always down.

Now, when you hit the Lagrangian point in the hollow world, things start getting weird. Actually, they start getting weird earlier if you have equalized air pressure throughout the world, as gravity starts to partially get canceled out by the other side of the world and air resistance does not, but people are less likely to realize that's an issue.

Okay, maybe the problem is really that we're all nerds for realizing the gravitational issues here.

EDIT: Lagrangian point isn't quite the right word for it, but it should be clear what i mean and i don't know what the right word is.

[Elennsar]

Since we are making this with the intent of playing it, presumably with other nerds, I think the fact we're hopelessly white and nerdy (or nerdy, at least) isn't really that bad.

[PhoneLobster]

No, not really.

See, they fly but don't effect local gravity in most instances. Gravity is always down...
...Okay, maybe the problem is really that we're all nerds for realizing the gravitational issues here.

Like I said. The Flying Islands solution.

"But Islands don't Fly!"

"Something about the fictional universe makes them fly."

"But in the context of the phsyics of the real universe that makes no sense and has complex implications!"

"I Don't Care."

Problem solved.

There is nothing inherently more intractable about one form of gravity defying continent than another.

Pick what you like and run with it and if it's hollow earth or flying islands only total idiots are going to chuck a bitchfest over it.

[Elennsar]

There is a lot more WTF about "the usual rule does not apply" then "something makes a specific exception to the usual rule"

Having the ingredients that combine to make gunpowder not work that way would make more sense than having a hollow world that works exactly like ours does except for the fact hollow worlds are somehow cooler.

[ckafrica]

Not that I particularly care for the idea of a hollow world but I don't see the "physics" of it's existence as being particularly troubling in a fantasy setting. If we are going to fantasyland I don't want physics to be raining on my parade. I believe all these problems get solved with one word "magic"

[Elennsar]

Which supposedly operates according to certain rules of its own.

Those rules may bear no resemblance whatsoever to science, but if we go around with "its magic', we have no fucking clue what to expect.

And frankly, if we can't even reasonably expect that when we drop something it hits the floor (or something else, the floor is just what we're used to), we're playing in an acid trip.

[name_here]

I have below an image in MS paint showing why flying islands don't pose a gravity issue



I was going to do one on why hollow worlds do pose a gravity issue, but i fail at making lots of arrows. Also it turns out that the inside of a spherical shell in fact has no gravity whatsoever. an effective 1/300 G is caused by centripedal force at the equator, but that's seriously so small no one cares.

[Crissa]

Well, the solid material of the sphere makes gravity, and that which is closest exerts the most force; so you have 0 at one edge and 99% of the thickness as gravity outward.

Just because it's tiny doesn't mean it exists. We've landed on asteroids with less.

Of course, then you get weird things like the force of molecular entanglement being stronger than gravity and nearly everyone can walk like geckos...

-Crissa

[Elennsar]

Of course, then you get weird things like the force of molecular entanglement being stronger than gravity and nearly everyone can walk like geckos...

That might not be entirely desirable. In fact, that might not be at all desirable.

[PhoneLobster]

I have below an image in MS paint showing why flying islands don't pose a gravity issue

I do hope that is sarcastic and you realise how incredibly stupid it is.

[Grek]

Just because it's tiny doesn't mean it exists. We've landed on asteroids with less.

There is 0 net gravity on the inside of a hollow sphere. Absolutely none. The Wiki article explains it well enough.

[TarkisFlux]

Mmmmm, physics in RPG discussion... so very delicious...

Hollow World Junk

Benefits of a Hollow World: If there is 0 gravity (which requires a massless "sun" at the center of it all if light radiates from the center), you can actually go from one side of the world to the other in a straight line. You can see arbitrarily far off into the horizon, because the horizon curves upwards from you in all directions.

Drawbacks of a Hollow World: Have to invent a reason why people stick to the ground, and do it without screwing up other gravity expectations. Unless you really want things that are tossed/thrown/shot to go fly until they hit something. I'm having some issues coming up with a consistant answer for this...

Alternative solution: People seem to still want gravity, beacuse people want to apply standard ideas about gravity even if the geometry is all fvcked up. You can do that by invalidating the 0 gravity provision with, for instance, a photon radiating "white" hole (I don't pretend that such things actually exist, even if the white hole is a valid theoretical object) in the center of the space that pushes people against the shell. You lose the ability of people to fly in straight lines across the shell, because it takes more energy to fly closer to the center, but retain the other stuff. You also get air density gradients that are functions of altitude. You gain a few new ways to destroy the world: tunnel to the other side and let the air out, dig deep trenches and weaken the shell so it can get blown out, etc.

You can even do this last one with any map out there. Aside from the horizon tweak, it doesn't meaningfully affect the adventures of people on the ground or with reasonable access to fly spells (which are currently limited by access to breathing).

But really, why do we care about the geometry again? World tree notwithstanding (because it could really tweak stuff) I'd rather get a map and some locations and some cultures down and interconnected than worry about whether the world is convex or concave.

[Elennsar]

Same. But what kind of things -can- evolve and would evolve (or be created) are going to be at least sort of influenced by what kind of world, so the more Earthlike, the easier stuff we see on Earth is.

[Gelare]

I have to agree with the folks who don't really care about how the gravity works. I mean, if my world is a hollow sphere, gravity points down, outside the sphere. What happens when you fly toward the center? Gravity still points down. Any odd gravitational effects flying characters feel as a result of this are small enough that they seriously wouldn't notice or care. The only exception is if they get very near to the center, but it's okay because that's a portal to another plane anyway, so there is no gravity. Problem solved.

Similar with the World Tree situation. There's a World Tree. Gravity points down. If you try to build someplace stupid, like the underside of a branch, you fall off into the endless abyss like you should. Or maybe into the Digital Sea, whatever. I mean, really, if you're going to be making a whole new game here, you probably have better things to worry about.

[Elennsar]

Then what in the name of all that's holy and that which is fun is the reason to do something bizzare like a World Tree or the Elephants on Turtles or whatever?

Weirdness for weirdness's own sake? Can't you just find something that actually -adds- to the setting that's weird if you really want something not Earthly that badly?

[Psychic Robot]

Good Lord, who really cares about this physics bullshit?

In fantasy: IT'S MAGIC, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND PLAY.
In sci-fi: IT'S TECHNOLOGY, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND PLAY.

[Elennsar]

The people who don't want to be flailing around with no fucking clue how things work or even what to expect works because its all justified by Magic/technology/your mom.

Its incoherent and excessively difficult to immerse yourself into.

[TarkisFlux]

PR, I actually care about the physics bullshit. Not because I agree that things shouldn't be weird, but because it's one more thing that I need to understand to make sense of the game world and make reasonably creative decisions in it. Some of the cases here aren't different in ways that matter, and some of them are; it all boils down to consistency.

Here's why if you care

If we've got gravity 0 hollow world, you can see the whole world by looking up. Exploration is tweaked slightly, but still held in check by the resolution of lenses. The skyship guys get even more powerful because they don't have to fly around the world anymore, then can just fly through it to trade with fvckin anybody. That tweaks their writeup slightly, or they make less sense in teh context of their world. It's easy tweaks though.

If there really is no gravity, and shit just sticks to the shell by magic, I can make lots of siege weapons, point them upwards, and fire at anyone reasonably far from me (that I can see on the upward curving land) and they'll fly straight and true. Litterally anyone has ICBMs they can point ay anyone else, which probably requires substantial adjustments to the political setup.

If we have a gravity <0 hollow world, it's basically like ours except I can see the rest of the world with a good pair of binoculars. Exploration is still tweaked, but travel isn't as much because you can't go through the middle easily. Of all the alternate ones talked about, this is probably my favorite, but I don't actually care if it gets picked up; this is easy enough to do on my own and doesn't really affect nation development differently than an earth or disc like world would.

World tree gives new meaning to burning bridges, since there are quite possibly a few choke points you would have to defend against any land-based off-branch invader. Exploration is tweaked again, and the skyship guys get more power again. If the cultures don't share the same branch, writeups get tweaked. I think this one fits least well.

[Username17]

You guys are rambling off course. Let me remind you.

Flying Islands.

Pretty much the same thing in their "dreaded physics explanation implications".

The Flying Islands were supported by blocks of stone that were fixed buoyantly by magical treatment. Gravity itself still works exactly the same, the islands function exactly as if they were magnetically suspended. And you'd know that if you read the first god damned fucking link.

Now there's a lot of cool things you can do with a world where gravity itself is all crazy wonky. Hell, things in Pandemonium work a lot like you're in a space station, and that's kind of cool. But it's frankly cool in a kind of science fiction-y fashion. The more things have crazy physics, the more you run around traveler style with a calculator to figure out what the hell is going on when things happen. To get into the "fantasy" feel, you really want physics to behave as intuitively as possible - and that really does mean as close to normally as possible.

People should be throwing javelins at things, and those javelins should be going to parabolic arcs. They should not be running around with pry bars attempting to hurl people into space. Not because the second one isn't cool, but because it requires a lot more physics investment to resolve basic actions than the first.

-Username17

[virgil]

If iron ultimately caused the fall of Atayala into a small & isolated island state, then it's likely that it hasn't even been two full generations since then, considering the common view of iron (and thus creation of the Scrap Pile).

Does thing mean things haven't quite reached equilibrium, as far as stability is concerned?

Are they any legacies left behind from the fall of the Atayala Empire, such as abandoned dungeons or magical experiments? I wonder if part of the reason for the current culture of Atayala to hate the ground so much is because that's where iron was found.

[Username17]

If iron ultimately caused the fall of Atayala into a small & isolated island state, then it's likely that it hasn't even been two full generations since then, considering the common view of iron (and thus creation of the Scrap Pile).

I don't know about that. Blacksmiths were considered to be magic in Europe well into the 7th century, and the empires they brought down collapsed in about 1200 BCE. Although interestingly, they weren't considered magic during the Roman period. So historically speaking, it looks like blacksmithing becomes an awe inspiring magical art for about 2-3 hundred years after the collapse of ancient empires.

I would think that the fall happened about 150 years ago, so that some of the ruins have had time to get well and truly forgotten.

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

The Flying Islands were supported by blocks of stone that were fixed buoyantly by magical treatment.

Or in other words they defy gravity and the fact that you have god damn gravity manipulation using magic rocks in your setting means that it DOES work differently.

Don't go pretending flying rocks in the sky isn't as silly as any other gravity defying idea.

And sure as heck don't pretend I can't find you any number of physical and strategic implications of magic flying rock physics. Siege engines in a hollow sphere ain't nothing compared to what flying rocks could do.

People should be throwing javelins at things, and those javelins should be going to parabolic arcs.

Why the fuck should they do that when I can just stick some magic flying rocks in the damn javelin and get it to do whatever gravity bullshit I want it to?

[Username17]

Phone Lobster: you are the actual reason we can't have nice things.

-Username17

[PhoneLobster]

I think your obsession with high detail off screen simulation when and only when it suits you is your major problem here.

You could just say "I like flying Islands, I don't feel like doing hollow earth"

But when you start making up bullshit justifications for dismissing hollow earth that also happen to undermine the use of your flying islands idea you are not just sabotaging the ideas you dislike but also shooting your self in the foot.

It's centaurs all over again but without even the need for opposition to actually want a toolkit addition before you are ready to go around shooting wildly at your own feet.