4e falls apart if you don't play it like the devs?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:42 pm

I've seen this idea bandied about a few times. I'd like to see some concrete examples. I know that hardness is gone in 4e, so dungeon tunneling got worse, but I'm sure there are far better examples of breakage.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:59 pm

A better example of hardness fail: Wizard punches down door for free is superior to the little 'Knock' ritual. When I used this on the 4.0tards they countered with 'The DM should pull hardness rules out of his ass' because oh noes, we can't have people opening the Blue Door without the Blue Key.

I have a LOT more, but no time to put it up now.

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:59 pm

I haven't heard any examples of the game falling completely apart, but it does reward exactly the opposite of its ideal party. Because defenders want to lock enemies down in melee and grind them with damage bonuses and controllers and strikers want to avoid enemy attacks and lock enemies down at range, the ideal engagement patterns are so different that a party of a single Laser Cleric and four Orb Wizards is optimal for a ranged control party and a party of one Tactical Warlord or Grind Paladin and four Fighters with whatever power they can squeeze out of multiclass is optimal for the melee grindfest.

shau · Post by **shau** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:04 am

Let's see...

1. A party of rangers out ranges everything so a party of rangers can take everything out from a distance.

2. It is incredibly easy, and effective, to finish off a hero who goes down. There are soft rules in the DMG that prevent you from doing that.
2(b) Focus fire is the win, and again the DMG tells you not to do that.

3. If the party refuses to fight multiple battles a day balance goes all to hell. A party that spams action pints and dailies are way more powerful than one that plays normally.

4. Many monsters are screwed by flight, and all day flight is available at level 5.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:06 am

Avenging (STR/WIS) paladins right now are almost totally unplayable without multiclassing. The barbarian preview on the wizards' website is a more complete class.

Warlocks are the weakest class in the game. They're only playable if no one else in the party knows what they're doing. They have less 'control' powers than wizards and they badly lag in the DPR behind pretty much everyone. I have no idea where they were going with this.

If you pick any wizard power besides the ones that inflict status effects on the enemy or you can sustain as a minor action then you're a double moron. This is despite the fact that about a 1/3rd of a wizard's encounter or daily powers at any level are pure damage powers.

Rogues compete neck-and-neck with rangers for DPR until paragon tier, then rangers beat the shit out of them. This happens around level 6 if you're using Adventurer's Vault. Artful Dodger rogues just flat-out suck compared to their brutal scoundrel buddies. Not only do they do less damage but they also get screwed out of weapon feats.

Swordmages and fighters can really only hold off about one enemy and that's only if they're not superdedicated. Paladins can't hold off any number of enemies effectively. 4E has inflated the numbers of monsters per encounter. You do the math.

16th level and beyond battle captains are just flat-out the best 'leader' role in the game. This isn't to say that the CHA-warlords are unplayable or even mediocre, it's just that Battle Captains are so OMG powerful that you'd be a double weenie not to pick anything else.

Swordmages actually make good defenders until around mid-paragon tier, when the sudden drop in good abilities and damage they do really hurts how they can contribute to the party. Like the STR/WIS paladins, they're a woefully incomplete class.

As far as DPR goes, making two attacks is always better than making one attack or one spread out attack after the first couple of levels. This is why dual strike fighters are the second in the game for DPR, only barely behind rangers and easily leaving every other class in the game in the dust.

Rare positive one: It used to be that you could squeeze a very functional melee class out of making a STR/CON warlock dwarf and grabbing pact hammers. But since they they nerfed pact hammers the build is unplayable. Okay, 4E fixed something, in the same manner as fixing a dog.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:09 am

Did I mention that paragon multiclassing is almost totally unusable? That even classes like the ranger whom every single multiclassing feat does something good for them doesn't want to paragon multiclass? That even a brutal scoundrel rogue/fighter who gains assymmetrically in favor of rogue still gets screwed out of a good paragon multiclass?

It's twoo. But even the layperson should realize how obvious the raw deal paragon multiclassing is.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:16 am

Orb Wizards and Demigods tear the game apart when you play the game like you're supposed to.

I don't just mean that level 30 class ability, either. Their level 26 ability is pretty much a 'fuck you' ability to any monster without an instant kill or petrification attack.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:38 am

There are a couple of Paragon multiclasses that are halfway decent.

The only noteworthy thing you get is the At-Will, so it's worth doing only if the at-will is vastly better than anything in your class. This does happen though.

Multiclassing a fighter to get Righteous Brand is totally worth it, for instance.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:48 am

Multiclassing a fighter to get Righteous Brand is totally worth it, for instance.

Not at the cost of four feats, three of which are already sunk costs since STR-fighter powers are universally better than STR-cleric ones.

Righteous brand is definitely not worth losing 3 class features for. Just look at the Kensei or Pit-Fighter; does that seem fair to you?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:51 am

The only one usable right now is the BS Rogue/Fighter.

But if you're going to do that, why not just be a single-classed fighter and go Pit Fighter or Son of Mercy? You'll do more damage at the cost of fewer feats.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:27 am

Divine Power rocks your socks. A free Healing Word and Religion skill is decent. Cleric Utility is awesome.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:37 am

Divine Power rocks your socks. A free Healing Word and Religion skill is decent. Cleric Utility is awesome.

Or you could just pick up the Warlord equivalent and do power swaps with Warlord. They have better powers for a fighter, especially the utility powers. Guileful Switch is a must-have.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:45 am

Paragon Multiclassing is not the same thing as tking Multiclass feats in order to take a Paragon Class from different class. The first one sucks ass so hard that it's puzzling why they even included it in the game. The other one is just kind of weird, but occasionally a very good way to get powers to mix and match in ways the designers never intended.

"Paragon Multiclassing" is the thing where in the Paragon tier you have the option of taking your paragon powers as lower level powers off another clas list instead of taking Paragon class and getting level appropriate powers and also getting flat bonuses (some of which are huge, like Wis mod to damage from the Pit Fighter). No one knows why "Paragon Multiclassing" even exists. It seems to be a holdover from when Paragon classes didn't exist and there were just a bunch of Ranger and Paladin powers to select from.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:02 am

The "Lower level powers" argument is bullshit. By and large, Paragon Path powers *suck*. The Encounter powers, especially are almost always worse than the general encounter powers off some other class's list. THe Utility powers rang from awesome to worthless. The Paragon Dailies are generally solid to awesome, but then there are some amazing regular dailies too.

All in all, the powers thing is a wash, or even slightly in favor of Paragon Multiclassing. After all, when selecting off a class list, you have options.

The problem is that Paragon Paths give bonuses, and Paragon Multiclassing doesn't. Now don't get me wrong, that's a HUGE drawback. Some paths have *awesome* benefits. Then again, some have pretty forgettable ones, especially the Warlock ones.

What you get for giving up the Path bennies is access to cross-class at-wills. This is almost never worth it. The vast majority of at-wills are not better than what you could already do. But a handful are. Some At-wills awesome enough to consider multiclassing for are:

Twin Strike (For Fighter, Cleric, Rogue)
Riposte Strike (For Fighter)
Scorching Burst (For Warlord)
Righteous Brand (For Fighter, Rogue, Paladin)

These aren't optimized builds, and they don't stack up to taking the most awesome paragon paths out there: you're probably better off with a Pit Fighter, Divine Oracle, Blood Mage, or Daggermaster, regardless of your base class. But compared to grabbing a random, flavorful path from your base class, Paragon Multiclass is fine.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:03 am

The "Lower level powers" argument is bullshit. By and large, Paragon Path powers *suck*. The Encounter powers, especially are almost always worse than the general encounter powers off some other class's list. THe Utility powers rang from awesome to worthless. The Paragon Dailies are generally solid to awesome, but then there are some amazing regular dailies too.

No doubt about the paragon path powers. With rare exceptions like the Blood Mage and the Divine Oracle, every PP has one or more powers that are just flat out inferior to equivalent-levelled class powers. On the other end of the scale, however, you have classes like Battlefield Archer and Champion of Order and Pit Fighter who have powers that are better than any other power, period, in that classes's arsenal.

However, the fact that Battle Captain completely beats the pants off of any mainstream warlord path except for maybe Infernal Strategist despite having the worst suite of PP powers in the game shows just how unimportant the powers are.

However even with this truth, there are also paragon paths that have the royal flush of having awesome powers and class features. Pit fighters can have their cake and eat it, too. Son of Mercy has a better level 20 daily power than any other defender daily with the exceptions of the fighter stances. Blood Mages would be worth picking if they had either their suite of powers OR their suite of class abilities. The fact that they have both is just awesome.

To show how lopsided this can get, the wizard of the Spiral Tower only needs one ability to be top tier and they get that at level 11.

I mean, hell, just in the basic book every class but warlock has access to a paragon path or synergizes with a MC path that hands out good everything. Let's take a look at the PPs in the basic PHB that either have a killer app or where 2/3rds of their abilities are solid gold.

Cleric:
Divine Oracle: Every single one of their abilities is awesome. They're so good that Orb wizards have to justify why they don't want to take levels in this class.

Warpriest: The only paragon path in the book that gets four class features. Very important because it sets a precedent for paragon paths not sucking so hard in the future. Every single one of their class features rules and their marking ability is so good that even tempest fighters want in on it. Their actual powers are okay, nothing special, except for the one that lets them replenish a daily power. Awesome.

Fighter

Iron Vanguard: Much better with the release of Martial Power, essential for shield-based STR/CON battlerager fighters. Especially if they are dwarves or dragonborn. No killer app but solid as far as 4E stuff goes.

Kensei: If you didn't have a secondary in wisdom but still want a damage bonus, pick this. You're just in it for Kensei Focus and Kensei Mastery.

Pit Fighter: Every one of their class abilities is solid gold. Their level 11 encounter ability is better than almost every melee encounter attack ability, most notably.

Swordmaster: Kind of lame unless you're abusing this class for Dual Strike Steel Blitz Jagged Weapon tjeese--then you end up spamming Rain of Blows like crazy. They also get to replenish a daily power for no reason, too.

Paladin

Hospitaler: The only reason why laser paladins remain any sort of credible 'defender'. If you're a multiclasser the level 11 ability 'Hospitaler's Blessing' instantly turns you into a cut-rate defender like no other ability in the game, except for maybe the level 16 warpriest ability.

Ranger

Battlefield Archer: So good that it's actually serious competition for Pit Fighter. Pretty much mandatory if you multiclassed cleric. Their level 12 utility is better than any of the other ranger utilities printed so far.

Stormwarden: Highest DPR in the game, even without their stance. And their stance is an encounter power.

Rogue

None, take another paragon path if you're a brutal scoundrel rogue. If you're not a brutal scoundrel rogue then you deserve to suck.

Interestingly, right now rogues are the only acceptable candidate for paragon multiclassing, since they have a reason to power swap every one of their encounter attack, utility, and daily attack powers. And that's if they snag Dual Strike or Twin Strike.

Warlock

Doomsayer: This is actually a very good paragon path, period, but you have to get into it by being a Star Pact warlock which sucks monkey fuck.

Warlord

Battle Captain: 4E crazy amounts of power. All of their class powers suck rotten eggs but it doesn't matter even a little bit because their class features are strong enough for two PPs.

Wizard

Blood Mage: Every single thing about this class is solid gold and some features like Bolstering Blood and Destructive Salutation head straight over towards solid platinum. If you're not an orblock wizard and/or your DM won't let you use Cunning longswords as your implement then this class is easily the best thing that could've happened to you. Adding an extra 11 damage on all of your sustain minor dailies is nothing but pure concentrated awesome and you get the first multi-enemy stun in the game.

Wizard of the Spiral Tower: They have exactly one class feature you care about and that's being able to use Cunning or Frost Longswords as implements. But imposing an additional -2 to -4 to saves on every one of your spells is more than worth not having any other features. Used for the suggested purpose of going into the front line and actually meleeing, even with the Intelligent Blademaster feat by MCing swordmage means that you will do nothing but suck.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:11 am

And really, if you're going to be a rogue who goes through the trouble of paragon multiclassing to a ranger it's still not worth it.

You could've just been a ranger instead and used up all of the feats you would've saved on paragon multiclassing on skill training if that's so important to you. And you could've power swapped to your real class, which is going to be a fighter and then your powers are going to be Rain of Blows, Pass Forward, and Quicksilver Stance. Your Hunter's Quarry feature is just plain better than sneak attack so there isn't even much headway to be made here either.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:42 am

I thought Star was the best Warlock pact: you just ignore the fact that you supposedly have 2 casting stats, pick one, and only use powers with that casting stat (given you can also choose either Infernal (Con) or Fey (Cha) without any real penalty - occasionally having the right pact gives a small bonus).

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:57 am

I thought Star was the best Warlock pact: you just ignore the fact that you supposedly have 2 casting stats, pick one, and only use powers with that casting stat (given you can also choose either Infernal (Con) or Fey (Cha) without any real penalty - occasionally having the right pact gives a small bonus).

Starlocks have the same problem right now that STR/WIS paladins do. Since their class list is so tiny to begin with due to developer laziness splitting it in half leads to levels where they only have one or two bullshit powers to choose from.

The only alternative they have is to boost both stats and immediately go for heavy armor. Which means not getting the secondary effects out of their powers. Sigh.

Of course, the real question remains: why the hell do you want to be a warlock anyway? Their basic chassis is inferior to wizards, their powers are worse, and their paragon paths are worse. Divine Oracle is so good that there's a serious incentive for CON-locks to immediately grab heavy armor and have a secondary in wisdom.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:08 pm

Koumei wrote:I thought Star was the best Warlock pact: you just ignore the fact that you supposedly have 2 casting stats, pick one, and only use powers with that casting stat (given you can also choose either Infernal (Con) or Fey (Cha) without any real penalty - occasionally having the right pact gives a small bonus).

Nah. Warlock powers have a strong tendency to be "If you are an Inferlock, this power actually does something vaguely level appropriate." or whatever.

For example, you hit level 3 and you get one Encounter Power. Those encounter powers are:

Eldritch Rain A two person attack that only does vaguely worthwhile damage if you are a Cha/Int Feylock.
Fiery Bolt A small area attack that only does worthwhile damage if you are a Con/Int Inferlock.
Frigid Darkness A horribly misworded power that is a single target attack that is also a decent one-turn curse if and only if you are a Con/Int Starlock.
Otherworld Stride A bullshit small melee attack that comes with a tiny teleport that becomes a medium sized teleport if you are Cha/Int Feylock.

Really, that's the whole list. There's literally only one attack you'd take if you were a Starlock, because the other halfway decent attacks of that level seriously miss out on Int Bonus to Damage on each target if you are a Starlock.

And when you get to 7th level, there's seriously only one good power offered up for Starlocks and it is Cha/Int only! And the bias for having a high Int isn't small either, it's pushing the to-hit roll for a round. It's just that this is 4e. You can't keep three attributes level appropriate. You just can't even do it.

-Username17

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:59 pm

I don't see the 4e object damage rules as significantly worse than the 3e ones. Yes, the 4e rules encourage and rely on DM intervention, but the 3e rules don't really work without DM intervention either, so I'm not sure I care.

FrankTrollman wrote:Really, that's the whole list.

Well, they 'fixed' the starlock disaster with Dragon 366 (one of the free ones), which added new starlock powers. The new level 3 starlock power is a charisma-based attack that slows targets and reduces cold resistance if you are a Starlock.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:32 pm

The Tron Paladin honestly doesn't seem that bad to me. His two at-wills are "very good" for 4e at-wills. One of them is the standard "high damage" move where you do W + 2 stats, and you can use large weapons. The other one is a very good accurate attack that is W + Stat and has +1 or more to-hit. That qualifies as "good" in 4e land.

Then your attacks are literally all chosen for you:

Radiant Strike
Paladin's Judgment
Staggering Smite (3)
Martyr's Retribution (5)
Thunder Smite (7)

It's not until level 9 that they forget to give you a power at all - and that's bad. But considering how extemely likely it is that you intend to bug out for War Piest or Pit Fighter, it's really just them fucking you around for one level. At Level 9 you get a Daily that you don't care about and can't use to its fullest (which is by the way: Crown of Glory, since you are merely losing out on a pile of damage by not having an Implement or a Charisma score, the real effect is the automatic Slow that you get anyway, if you care). At 10th level you replace it with Victorious Surge or Divine Power depending on where you are going with your Tron Paladin.

As 4e characters go, this seems like a pretty playable dude. His encounter ad daily abilities are spectaculary underwhelming, but his at-wills are fairly impressive and he has a lot of hit points. Having as he does a Str/Wis spread and heavy armor, his defenses are amongst the best available. In the long, boring, drawn out battles that 4e prides itself on, the Tron Paladin seems like a strong contender.

-Username17

josephbt · Post by **josephbt** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:41 pm

What is "Dual Strike Steel Blitz Jagged Weapon tjeese"?

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:33 pm

Why is Spiral Tower Wizard good?

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:47 pm

Boolean wrote:Why is Spiral Tower Wizard good?

It has to do with being able to use a longsword as an implement, IIRC.

shau · Post by **shau** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:57 pm

Boolean wrote:Why is Spiral Tower Wizard good?

It let's you use a cunning longsword which lowers enemy saving throws. It only take like a minus 10 to make sure non-solo enemies never recover. At lot of high level wizard play involves throwing down a stun:save ends effect and stacking enough penalties that it never actually ends.