Pooka d20 - Simplified Skills

[Crissa]

Questions

First, I created pairs of skills, where by buying both pips in one skill, you get a 'free' pip in the second skill. This means that someone who is a good bluffer will automatically get some basic sense motive, etc. But should I make it so that to get good in both skills, they should pay four or three pips total?

If I give level for one pip and level + 3 for both pips; would it be better instead to have +3 for one pip and level +3 for both pips instead? This would make buying both pips worth less at starting (encouraging broader characters) and make buying the second pip worth more to more experienced characters. But it'd make buying the first pip worth less to more experienced characters...


Background

Okay, everyone's seen the threads about advanced skills and simplified skills, etc, and that I'm a proponent (though I can't take all the credit) of one of the simpler skill systems.

I've basically decided that half-class-level skills just aren't enough. They're too far behind even by level 10 to really be useful in a level situation (+6 vs +12), so why would a player invest in them? So my conclusion is that a trained skill should at least give you your level bonus, and an untrained use should give you at least half (assuming you're allowed to)

Now, I'm not getting into anything above level 10, mostly because I'm having trouble with my players learning the rules altogether, so I'm working on some simpler flow charts and whatnot to help speed things along.

One of my design goals is for all characters to have 'enough' skills; the other is for skills to be useful at all levels. The last one is for there not to be too many skills, as that bogs down character design. I like being able to write a playable character in a few minutes without consulting charts. (Though I'm making tons of charts).

Pooka d20[/url]]Skills are are descriptions of the knowledge and talents of a character. They can be diverse as inborn traits and lessons learned on the fly. Skills open the door to information, actions, and options. Skills are not meant as attack options; if they are, they are defended against as a level check plus the relevant stat. d20 SRD has thirty six skills, yet the average character is allowed four. In order for a group to cover a wider area of skills, I've lowered the list to twenty-one. [d20 conversion to pips: For class skills, take skill Points per level times two; and for Feats, you may gain two pips per feat expended.]

Skills can be gained through race: some races are naturally proficient or teach these skills to youngsters; class: Every class come with a number of suggested skills and the time to train them; and from feats - abilities gained through progression. All skills get a stat bonus and are are had at three levels; Untrained, in which you have half your level as experience; Competent, in which you have have your level plus a +3 bonus; and Trained, in which you have your level minus one, or half of Competent. (Which, yes, means that at first level Untrained is +0; Competent is +4; and Trained is +2, and at second level Untrained is +1, Competent is +5, and Trained is +2.)

It costs nothing to be Untrained in a skill; although some are Restricted by class, those classes automatically have them at Untrained. Some require selecting a field before you have them, like Local Language or Craft. It costs two pips •• to have something at Competent and one pip • for Trained. You automatically gain Knowledge Local at Trained • in your native land. Lastly, some skills come in pairs, you can choose one skill for one pip, or both for two pips. You can always opt not to select an option, if that's your wish (but isn't recommended).

Simplified Skill List

• Knowledge INT
  1. Arcana [Spells, Psonics, Devices, Aberrations, Undeath]
  2. Nature [Animals, Plants, Physical]
  3. Divine [History elsewhere, Divine, Outsiders, Myths]
  4. Local† [Language, History, Geography, Religion, Nobility, Symbols, Legends] (+1 region and language per skill pip)
  • Husbandry [Handle Animal, Train Animal, Ride] WIS
  • Athletics [Jump, Swim, Climb] STR
    • Acrobatics† [Balance, Tumble] DEX
  • Awareness [Listen, Spot, Search] WIS
    • Decipher† [Appraise, Forgery, Decipher Script] INT
  • Stealth [Hide, Move Silently] DEX
    • Deception [Bluff, Disguise] CHR
  • Legerdemain [Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope] DEX
    • Devise† [Disable Device, Engineering, Open Locks, Disable Rune] INT
  • Persuade [Diplomacy, Intimidate] CHR
    • Intuition [Sense Motive, Gather Information] WIS
  • Survival [Heal, Survival] WIS (+1 climate or zone per skill pip)
  • Perform† [Perform, Script] CHR (+1 performance form per skill pip)
  • Concentration* [Concentration, Scry] CON
  • Spellcraft* [Spellcraft, Scry] INT
  • Use Magic Device* [Use Psionic Foci] CHR
  • Craft† [Craft, Profession, Field of Study] INT (one Craft at Competent per skill pip)
  • Language† [Spoken, Sign, Written] INT (one Language at Competent per skill pip)
  * - Restricted by class
  † - No Untrained use
  º - Pair
  
  
  Bonuses, plus appropriate stat -

  Level	untrained	trained	master
  1	+0	+2	+4
  2	+1	+2	+5
  3	+1	+3	+6
  4	+2	+3	+7
  5	+2	+4	+8
  6	+3	+5	+9
  7	+3	+6	+10
  8	+4	+7	+11
  9	+4	+8	+12
  10	+5	+9	+13
  ...
  15	+7	+14	+18

  
  [/center]

(typo in the link, fixed)

[Crissa]

Sorta hoped someone would help me with the pros and cons of my decision here.

-Crissa

[TarkisFlux]

1) I'm inclined to say 3 pips for competent in both, but it's a tentative answer. The way you have progression setup, the difference between 1 and 2 pips is going to be 4 or less; I just don't see charging 2 pips on a paired skill for a 4 point max bonus as being worth it, or happening much in play.

It's tentative because a few things are unclear. Does INT bonus give bonus pips like the skill point conversion? Are you converting d20 classes without adjustment? Are the 4 sub knowledge skills paired with each other? If the answer to all of those questions is yes, then an 18 INT Rogue will have every skill up there except languages or craft at competent or trained due to bonus pips. Even if the Knowledges aren't all linked, he can snatch up all of the other black dots and still have a couple of pips left over for upgrades. I'm not sure if you want near universally skilled characters, but that guy could burn a few feats and do it. It's harder to do if it costs 2 points to get a bonus skill up to competent though, but I think I'd revisit skill point allotments or Int bonuses before charging that amount.

2) Given that you already don't like half class progression for anything other than untrained skills, I don't understand why you'd consider going with a static modifier that will eventually be overtaken by the untrained growth. It's slightly better at the beginning, but without the ability to reallocate your pips you're going to need to set a lot of feats on fire to be decent with anything later on. I'd say stick with the scaling.

[Crissa]

Yes, int gives a pip per point in int. I was thinking of making Rogues down to 6; the idea is to bring up other classes, but rogues have more skills than Bards for no good reason. No, the four knowledge skills aren't paired.

But yes, an 18 Int Rogue would have 12 skills; with the 3-pip bonus they'd be seeing a three more skills. A Rogue has 20 skills on their list, plus local/survival/perform/crafts/language specialties.

Wouldn't an 18-int rogue basically have all the skills that did anything, anyhow? They'd skip skills that didn't do anything and take skills that superseded other skills. They'd have half of all known skills anyhow, and the other half might not be worth having or aren't on their skill list originally...

---

I was thinking...

Level	untrained	trained	master
1	+0	+3	+4
5	+2	+5	+8
10	+5	+8	+13
15	+7	+10	+18

...instead of...

Level	untrained	trained	master
1	+0	+2	+4
5	+2	+4	+8
10	+5	+9	+13
15	+7	+14	+18

I kinda like what I have, now that I look at it, each pip is 20% better until you pass level 10. But I want to encourage single-pips earlier instead of later.

...And you get more skill pips later on if you up your int, which seems to be what most players do.

-Crissa

[TarkisFlux]

There's a difference between a rogue who has all the skills they care about, and a rogue who has all the skills they care about plus most of the ones that they don't. Not that most of the non-rogue skills do anything, but that character would still be competing with characters who took those skills because they were on their list and they wanted to be good at them. Whether that's even a bad thing or not depends on what your going for.

---

I think you're better off sticking with your original skill advancement, even though untrained and trained advance at the same rate for the first 6 levels. If you want to encourage the single pip over no pip earlier than that, you could delay the untrained progression to level 3 or 5 or whatever.