Where's the Andy C. loves his FTR/BARB dwarf smoking gun?

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:46 am

shau wrote:
Crissa wrote: Hence wearing conductors vs magic lightning is bad, but wearing wood is good, but the opposite is true iRL.

-Crissa
Are sure about this? It sounds like you are saying I want to be wearing metal boots in a high voltage area, not rubber ones. It is my understanding the opposite is true.

Well, what she's getting at is that electricity will follow the path of least resistance to ground. If there's a metal pathway that allows electricity to pass through rather than your body, it will do that.

If you're encased in metal, the electricity will follow the metal. If your boots are metal and nothing else, the power will go through your body to get to the boots. If you are not connected to ground at all though, electricity won't go through you at all.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:52 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:If you are not connected to ground at all though, electricity won't go through you at all.

Not strictly true. While you won't be affected by lightning striking near you, your presence in the air may provide a path of least resistance. Airplanes in storms get struck by lightning.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:12 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:If you are not connected to ground at all though, electricity won't go through you at all.
Not strictly true. While you won't be affected by lightning striking near you, your presence in the air may provide a path of least resistance. Airplanes in storms get struck by lightning.

If there's a path through the air, then you are connected to ground. Don't correct me, then say something that I just said.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:35 am

Rubber boots provide less conductivity than your flesh. Air provides less conductivity than your flesh, too. And yet lightning goes through the air.

Count said it all, he just left off at an inopportune turn of phrase.

Anyhow, this is why to avoid being electrocuted, linemen wear chainmail and ground their equipment to the line, so the step up to the voltage without it flowing through their body. And it's why Faraday cages work.

-Crissa

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:57 am

Yeah, electricity adds up the ohms along any possible path to ground and travels along the path of the least total resistance. Then once that path is chosen, what actually does damage is the resistance of the path. Resistance converts a certain amount of electrical power to heat. Otherwise it just flows through.

So if you wear rubber boots, you make the path through you less appealing. If, however, the path through you is chosen anyway, those boots will heat up and explode. And remember that most of your body, being as it is essentially made out of salt water, is very conductive. If you wear metal boots, it makes paths through the boots more attractive, but the low resistance of the material means that electricity passing through it will be harmless while traveling through it. So if you cover your whole body with copper chainmail, the path right next to you is very attractive, but when electricity goes through the armor it will only make you a little bit warm.

Rubber boots decrease the likelihood that you will be targeted by a bolt of lightning somewhat. Metal shells attract lightning, but also protect you from the effects.

-Username17

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:10 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote: If there's a path through the air, then you are connected to ground. Don't correct me, then say something that I just said.

Jesus Count, by that reasoning you're always connected to the ground.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:32 am

You are, from the standpoint of electricty.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:56 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote: If there's a path through the air, then you are connected to ground. Don't correct me, then say something that I just said.
Jesus Count, by that reasoning you're always connected to the ground.

When you have had extensive training with electricity and wiring, you can question my reasoning. Until then, shut your face, you don't know what you're talking about.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:49 pm

The bad thing about electricity going through humans, though, is when it goes through your heart. Unfortunately, it doesn't takes but a really low amperage to actually kill you this way. So the lower resistance = lower heat thing is true only if it doesn't go through your upper chest. Otherwise you're fucked.

So I can see a setup where creatures with squishy organs can have a chance of taking extra damage from electricity and trees have a resistance to it. It makes sense.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:29 pm

Also, electricity can cause nerve damage too. I worked with a guy that was working on some 220 lines ten years ago with no form of protection at all when it was damp, and he got a jolt.

Luckily, it threw him free, most of the time it just tenses your muscles and make you take a death-grip on whatever you were holding. However, to this day he gets shooting pains up and down his arms and fingers.

Also, weirdly enough there gets to be a point where the mortality rate for electrical shocks lowers. Lago is right, if electricity hits your heart, it causes the rhythm to go all screwy and you die, but if the shock is high enough to tense your chest and rib muscles, it keeps the heart from doing that. 'Course, then you have severe burns and nerve damage to deal with, so it's no picnic either.

TavishArtair · Post by **TavishArtair** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The bad thing about electricity going through humans, though, is when it goes through your heart. Unfortunately, it doesn't takes but a really low amperage to actually kill you this way. So the lower resistance = lower heat thing is true only if it doesn't go through your upper chest. Otherwise you're fucked.

So I can see a setup where creatures with squishy organs can have a chance of taking extra damage from electricity and trees have a resistance to it. It makes sense.

Sure, but immunity is obviously just as insane.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:20 pm

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:When you have had extensive training with electricity and wiring, you can question my reasoning. Until then, shut your face, you don't know what you're talking about.

Sure thing count. In the future I'll make sure to consult with you before talking about anything you might have expertise in.

TavishArtair wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote:The bad thing about electricity going through humans, though, is when it goes through your heart. Unfortunately, it doesn't takes but a really low amperage to actually kill you this way. So the lower resistance = lower heat thing is true only if it doesn't go through your upper chest. Otherwise you're fucked.

So I can see a setup where creatures with squishy organs can have a chance of taking extra damage from electricity and trees have a resistance to it. It makes sense.
Sure, but immunity is obviously just as insane.

Depending on how magic lightning targeting is done, it might make sense to make trees harder to hit but take more damage. Just like the knight in shining armor should be easier to hit but take less.

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:10 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
Sure thing count. In the future I'll make sure to consult with you before talking about anything you might have expertise in.

Excellent. One down, several billion to go.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:20 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:Excellent. One down, several billion to go.

How about you stop being retarded and explain WTFH you mean with "not connected to the ground"?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:16 am

You're always connected to the ground. How well you are is determined by what's around you; you can build up a charge that's insufficient to pass over that gap. Rubber boots == more charge you will hold. Which means the next time something not rubber touches something more grounded - like a doorknob - boom, you get a shock.

Literally you either surround yourself with metal or connect yourself to the ground to avoid being hit by a shock.

In D&D, it's the opposite.

-Crissa

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:25 am

I know. I was referring to:

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:If you're encased in metal, the electricity will follow the metal. If your boots are metal and nothing else, the power will go through your body to get to the boots. If you are not connected to ground at all though, electricity won't go through you at all.

(emphasis mine)

And then the idiocy.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:16 am

Some of the lightning spells in D&D have a bigger effect on flyers (or possibly just hit them more easily). So it looks like it's not the opposite, they're merely inconsistent.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:10 am

...Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Andy Fail, and not lightning strikes? Last I checked, the former was a lot more common...

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:53 pm

Bigode wrote:
Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:Excellent. One down, several billion to go.
How about you stop being retarded and explain WTFH you mean with "not connected to the ground"?

How about you munch on my taint?

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:59 pm

Crissa wrote: Literally you either surround yourself with metal or connect yourself to the ground to avoid being hit by a shock.

Not always.

Linemen who deal with really high voltages will use metal to redirect electricity away from their bodies for safety.

However, for small-scale repairs, usually insulated boots/gloves are worn. The difference is that small voltage (110-220 voltage) isn't very likely at all to make the jump through multiple layers of leather and rubber to hit ground. (Now, you need to be vigilant on the condition of your safety gear, as even a small breach will in fact completely negate what you're wearing.)

That protection really isn't going to matter though if you're working lines carrying 18,000+ volts, it's going to bust through any insulator that could possibly be worn on the hand and feet as if it wasn't there. In that case, redirection is the key.

However, I have never seen electricians use any protective gear at all when working on household 220, or even the three-phase 450 machinery we had at the plant. Whether that's confidence or stupidity, I can't say.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:51 am

Well, yes, but as it is, the number of people who use insulators vs redirectors is actually lower. That's actually more dangerous, as at any point you might misjudge your amount of insulation...

...And they probably did that because turning off the power is the best insulation, the 450 workers I know usually junction it another direction, and then test with big gloves to short out sections, then ditch the gloves one the power has been fed away.

And while I never, ever had it happen in my years of electronics training, in the last year I encountered leftover overvoltage on circuitry, producing sparks when I grounded it - it would've destroyed any chips I was working on or triggered explosives if that's what I'd been working on, I'd heard about it, and always see demo guys worrying about it, but never saw it before, but when a plain piece of wire acts like a capacitor in front of you, you're convinced.

-Crissa

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:22 am

Crissa wrote:Well, yes, but as it is, the number of people who use insulators vs redirectors is actually lower.

Your experience is opposite mine. Also, I haven't found the electricians I've worked with turned the power off very often, they worked the wires hot. Again, I don't consider that a good idea.

Also, I've only heard about redirectors, I've never seen any in use at any time. I haven't worked with any linemen though.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:05 am

When you say "redirectors" do you mean leashes or what?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:26 am

Yeah, but electricians aren't the majority. They're just carpenters with wires. There's all sorts of electronics and electrical repair, and they either use anti-static coatings (these conduct); grounding straps, or armor gear (linesmen).

-Crissa

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:55 am

Electricians do electronic repair. I don't know why you think they don't.