Help wanted: Assistance with character generation!

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:14 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Note: I'm an outlier when it comes to DMs. Since I give optimizing advice to players who want it, or are unsure about what to do.

Makes two of us, then.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:10 am

Well... i'm also sort of mean, and i like to have dangerous and/or exciting fights.

Like... a swarm (well... 7) Wyverns against a bunch of lvl 5 PCs. or a Retriever against two lvl 6 PCs and unicorn npc that volunteered to help (in exchange for having been freed from slavery by said PCs, but whatever).

i.... don't really dm that much. I always feel like i'm repeating the same sessions over an over. i want to change that this summer.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:53 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Okay, first things first, hands up everyone whose DM will let them sneak attack with acid flasks or anything that grants touch attacks.

Most DMs I think will be about 50/50 on that. By RAW it's perfectly legal but it feels very wrong from a flavor standpoint. Besides, you rarely run into a RAW game anyway.

As a DM, I think I'd say no. Mainly because acid flasks are imprecise splash weapons, so trying to achieve a precise based strike doesn't make sense.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:13 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Most DMs I think will be about 50/50 on that. By RAW it's perfectly legal but it feels very wrong from a flavor standpoint. Besides, you rarely run into a RAW game anyway.

As a DM, I think I'd say no. Mainly because acid flasks are imprecise splash weapons, so trying to achieve a precise based strike doesn't make sense.

Acid flask size: pretty fvcking small. Acid vial hits chest <<<< acid vial hits eyes. Are we done? I'm of open mind about letting people experience them firsthand.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:14 am

RC2, DnD as a whole feels wrong from a flavour standpoint. In all seriousness, a lot of shit in DnD just doesn't make any sense at all, and only exists due to DM fiat, which means that talking about versimillitude as a justification for splash weapons not being sneak-attackable with is a little... stretched.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:18 am

Mister_Sinister wrote:RC2, DnD as a whole feels wrong from a flavour standpoint. In all seriousness, a lot of shit in DnD just doesn't make any sense at all, and only exists due to DM fiat, which means that talking about versimillitude as a justification for splash weapons not being sneak-attackable with is a little... stretched.

Well yeah, but there's also an underlying balance reason too, given that sneak attacking with acid flasks is very powerful, since you're getting constant ranged touch sneak attacks.

It's really one of those things that any mid to high level rogue would be stupid not to do.

One thing I would consider doing is giving the rogue a compromise, where it would only count as a sneak attack if he beat the target's full AC, instead of being a touch attack, to indicate that he landed the acid in a particularly vulnerable spot that wasn't protected by armor. But that should be a bit harder to do than just a normal acid flask toss.

Otherwise, you get every rogue just using nothing but flasks.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:29 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Well yeah, but there's also an underlying balance reason too, given that sneak attacking with acid flasks is very powerful, since you're getting constant ranged touch sneak attacks.

It's really one of those things that any mid to high level rogue would be stupid not to do.

One thing I would consider doing is giving the rogue a compromise, where it would only count as a sneak attack if he beat the target's full AC, instead of being a touch attack, to indicate that he landed the acid in a particularly vulnerable spot that wasn't protected by armor. But that should be a bit harder to do than just a normal acid flask toss.

Otherwise, you get every rogue just using nothing but flasks.

Now you're actually trying - Merry Christmas. So, yeah, let's stop pretending that had anything to do with the flavor of anything; it has to do with punishing resourcefulness, either in itself or because it's overpowered/no-brainer. Let's also know the acid's plunged back into uselessness; and one could (but I, at least, won't) argue that this also makes rogues require somewhat serious optimization to keep up.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:32 am

*raises hand* I allow acid flasks to be used for sneak attacks.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:58 am

I've never actually seen a game where acid flasks were not allowed for sneak attacks. Considering that there's those huge sidebars in all the wizard books explaining exactly what can and cannot qualify for sneak attacks, and the acid flask touch attack is even mentioned in some of them as one of the ones that can, it's just completely open and shut. The most I've ever seen is a DM go "Wait, you can sneak attack with an acid flask?" and then have the player pull out the relevant section.

The splash damage from acid flasks doesn't generate sneak attack, which seriously means that past first or second level it may as well not eve exist. I've seen multiple groups simply forget to apply splash damage because it doesn't matter anyway.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:00 am

Bigode wrote:Now you're actually trying - Merry Christmas. So, yeah, let's stop pretending that had anything to do with the flavor of anything; it has to do with punishing resourcefulness, either in itself or because it's overpowered/no-brainer. Let's also know the acid's plunged back into uselessness; and one could (but I, at least, won't) argue that this also makes rogues require somewhat serious optimization to keep up.

FrankTrollman wrote:I've never actually seen a game where acid flasks were not allowed for sneak attacks. Considering that there's those huge sidebars in all the wizard books explaining exactly what can and cannot qualify for sneak attacks, and the acid flask touch attack is even mentioned in some of them as one of the ones that can, it's just completely open and shut.

Maybe you guys have played with more understanding DMs, but it's been my experience that most of them do not let non-casters have nice things. Sneak attack with acid flasks aren't allowed because it's 'unthematic' or 'rules lawyery', it's not allowed because 'OMG THE ROGUE IS GETTING SNEAK ATTACKS WITH TOUCH ATTACKS!!!!'

Even though many of these people allow Wraithstrike and Divine Power in the damn game.

I'm stunned at these responses. Do you think something like 'it's in the rules' or 'it looks cool' is going to sway the minds of your average D&Der? Most of these guys were in denial about the fighter until 4E said it had problems. Sheesh.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:03 am

Lago, the very reason we exist is to teach people about such things. Besides, you can always set a good example to the idiots out there...

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:14 am

It's clear cut in the rules. And I don't at all know why it'd be unthematic - I literally don't compute it; I do compute why acid > everything else's unthematic, but not why'd acid in itself be nonsensical. So there's: a) acid > everything's indeed bad; b) which of acid and common weapons' balanced (there seems to be evidence to both sides) - I don't fvcking object to houserules on that, but that's what they're, and hardly for "flavor" reasons, except in the single case of "the flavor is that using acid shouldn't be a no-brainer", which I suppose people actually agree with.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:29 am

I can name at least one Rogue that argues effectively for acid to be better for rogues to use than any other weapon.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:32 am

FrankTrollman wrote:I've never actually seen a game where acid flasks were not allowed for sneak attacks.

(snip)

The most I've ever seen is a DM go "Wait, you can sneak attack with an acid flask?"

Ditto. I've seen people bitch and moan on the kinds of sites that makes us Laugh, Cry or Both, and explaining how they wouldn't allow it ever (but are fine with the Druid showing up the Rogue, Fighter, Ranger and Paladin). But in a game? It's considered just fine, if a bit clever/cheeky.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:02 pm

The only thing about acid flasks is since you're hurling 10 a round, you're going to run out very quickly and run out of ones on you at the time even quicker.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:19 pm

Roy wrote:The only thing about acid flasks is since you're hurling 10 a round, you're going to run out very quickly and run out of ones on you at the time even quicker.

By the time you're throwing ten in a round, you'll be making them daily with Minor Creation and carrying them with a Heward's Handy Haversack.

-Username17

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:30 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
Roy wrote:The only thing about acid flasks is since you're hurling 10 a round, you're going to run out very quickly and run out of ones on you at the time even quicker.
By the time you're throwing ten in a round, you'll be making them daily with Minor Creation and carrying them with a Heward's Handy Haversack.

-Username17

Which drawing from is a Move action even with Quick Draw. x.x

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:03 pm

Roy wrote:
Which drawing from is a Move action even with Quick Draw. x.x

That's an interpretation I have never seen in real play. If you have an ability that makes drawing items a move action, and another ability that reduces move actions to free actions to draw items, that makes it a free action.

Of course, you could also make the argument that Quick Draw only applis to weapons and that Acid Flasks are "Special Substances" rather than being specifically "Weapons" and thus can never be Quick Drawn. Or you could make the argument that Acid Flasks are Ammunition and thus always drawn as a Free Action regardless of where you are getting them from. Or you could pull the Sleight of Hand trick where you can get any item out of any container as a free action by failing to prevent people around you from noticing that you are doing it.

Or you could just come to terms with the fact that Quick Draw doesn't actually use any consistently defined or applied terminology and that the feat's entire purpose is to get an item into your hand as a free action instead of a move equivalent, and thus having it fail to give you your acid flasks in a timely manner would be just as stupid as using untrained sleight of hand check failures to get the acid flasks into your hands in a timely manner with no resource cost at all.

-Username17

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:08 pm

Hm. And I thought they had to be on you to Quick Draw. In that case, 12 rounds of bombs is probably enough for the day. The only catch is you can't put much of anything else in there.

Gelare · Post by **Gelare** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:49 pm

LAGO wrote:Okay, first things first, hands up everyone whose DM will let them sneak attack with acid flasks or anything that grants touch attacks.

As a DM, I would totally allow sneak attacks with acid, and I'd fully expect whoever DMs for me to do the same.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:35 pm

Bigode wrote:Now you're actually trying - Merry Christmas. So, yeah, let's stop pretending that had anything to do with the flavor of anything; it has to do with punishing resourcefulness, either in itself or because it's overpowered/no-brainer. Let's also know the acid's plunged back into uselessness; and one could (but I, at least, won't) argue that this also makes rogues require somewhat serious optimization to keep up.

Well, there are two reasons. One is because I do feel that it's not really thematic, and the second is that there's a power reason. Once you allow rogues to sneak attack with acid flasks, they become effectively the only sneak attack weapon people are going to use. Now some people are okay with that, and I can understand if you are.

But personally I want the dagger throwing rogue or the rogue with a crossbow to be viable too. Also, I do allow sneak attacks at range up to the weapon's range increment, because I think it's stupid you can't be any kind of sniper rogue.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:43 pm

Roy wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Roy wrote:The only thing about acid flasks is since you're hurling 10 a round, you're going to run out very quickly and run out of ones on you at the time even quicker.
By the time you're throwing ten in a round, you'll be making them daily with Minor Creation and carrying them with a Heward's Handy Haversack.

-Username17
Which drawing from is a Move action even with Quick Draw. x.x

In a giant bag. In-hand. Bandoliers.

I've seen unathletic LARPers use "flasks" as thrown weapons at high speed and with very high accuracy. They carry their "flasks" in either a big bag; jammed between the fingers of their non-throwing hand, or on a bandolier.

The range might not have been awesome (really, 10' is appropriate as a range increment (and it is for most thrown weapons), but being able to lug them around is not a problem at all.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:57 pm

My point was that I thought the move action to draw from a Haversack overrode the other stuff.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:40 pm

True. But in real-life, people draw stuff just as fast and aren't D&D characters.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:11 pm

Let's just say that long-term transport is HHH, and there is a bandoleer of them kept on hand. That way we have the thematic approximation ("Hey! that guy totally throws fire at people"), and the mechanical representation (he isn't running out or stopping anytime soon).

I have allowed this tactic in game (acid pies), and would expect it to be used in any game I played in.

If you are against acid-throwing rogues, would you be against a Ray of Frost rogue* (A close range, level 0 touch spell for 1d3 damage points that is SA-ready and available at level 1)?

What if they took Double Wand Wielder and shot 2 Rays of Frost each round at level 3?

What about a Dual Wand Wielder Scorching Ray (CL7) Rogue? They get 4 SA/round. Each one is 4d6+SA and is obtainable at level 5, using the above tactics and creating the wands with previous wands to reduce the cost.

The FAQ/Sage has repeated said that you can sneak attack with spells, and the above tactic dishes out more damage than the acid-rogue and has better flavor (fire to the face), in my opinion. You can take Double Wand Wielder with he level 10 rogue ability (instead of Perfect TWF) and dumpster-dive for spells that require lots of touch attacks for more damage, if so you desire.

I admit that I don't like it, but it is here to stay.

Anyways, I am likely to play in an Eberron campaign soon, myself. Is there anything good out of the Eberron source books?

* - it freezes your nuts off!