Light, Grey and Dark; or morality for great power

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Light, Grey and Dark; or morality for great power

Post by Judging__Eagle »

.... and they're also pretty smart. and they've got the most serene face, and

Alignments

or, things that we bitch a lot about, but are probably best left vauge

Most people tend to

For higher level characters, they may have up to 2 marks per character level, split up between Light or Dark as they wish.

Collecting Marks against your soul

Bullshit about how. You get marks based on your actions according to the list below.

Light Acts
-Honourable combat. +1 Light per scene
-Saving lives/rescuing. +2 Light per person.
-Sparing the life of an enemy. +2 Light per person.
-Helping others. +1 Light per scene.
-Honesty (to your disadvantage). +1 Light per scene.

Grey Acts
-Killing in self-defense. +0 Dark. [No Dark marks can be earned when killing creatures that attacked you first]
-Preparing for a future scene [research, preparing weapons, buying supplies etc.] up to +1 Light or +1 Dark per adventure.
-Execution of enemies that cannot/will not surrender. +1 Light or +1 Dark per enemy

Dark Acts
-Killing. +2 Dark per death.
-Torture. +2 Dark per session, no matter it's length
-Causing pain. +1 Dark per scene.
-Dishonourable combat. +1 Dark per scene.
-Hostages/Kidnaps. +1 Dark per hostage, per scene.
-Theft. +1 Dark per scene.
-Lies (except 'Light lies'; includes Illusions [i.e. only if Illusions fuck up everything and are not handwaved away], use of the Disguise skill, Hiding things or oneself, Magical disguises and Polymorphing/Shapechanging abilities of every kind). +1 Dark per scene.
-Apathy (ignoring the problems of others). +1 Dark per scene.
-Removing freedom of choice for an other creature (slavery, mind control etc.) +2 Dark per creature, per scene

[Yes, Illusion, Shapechanging, Mind-Control and Ambushing are acts that give Dark marks; what did you expect?]

[My big change here. I made many of the Light marks easier to acheive. As they are now granted once per creature, or once per scene, it encourages players to be more Light more often. On the other hand, being dark is ridiculously easy. You just cut people, or scare them, or carry concealed weapons, or lie about one thing about yourself. Many of the more powerful spells are also piled into the 'dark acts' pile.... I guess this creates games where “wizards” are “evil”, while “knights” aren't? .... if this turns into an actual system for trying to replicate medieval tales of chivalry, then that's awesome.]

Determining the shade of your soul

The maximum variation between Light and Dark that a Grey-souled person can have is based on their level. If a character has a greater difference than the indicated values, then they are a Light or Dark souled person, according to whichever they have more marks of.
  • Level 1 = 2
  • Level 5 = 10
  • Level 10 = 20
  • Level 15 = 30
  • Level 20 = 40
Thus, a lower level character only needs a few of each type of mark in order to be Light or Dark. While a higher level character may have a larger disparity.

Removing Marks

A character may remove one mark of one type, in order to remove two of an other. Most of the time, marks are removed to activate special abilities or effects.

For other creatures

Assume that a Good creature has a number of Light marks equal to their HD, and an Evil one has a number of Dark marks equal to their HD. Neutral creatures have their total number of marks equal to their HD, half being Light, half being Dark.

Abilities

Light
Come on friend, have a drink on me, and tell me your troubles.

Light Soul: If your Light marks are greater than your Dark marks by at least 2 per character level, then you count as a Light soul.

Light-souled people deeply care about the well-being of others, and will go to lengths to help others in need. They have the greatest amount of sense of self, and can often create change in the world around them simply by acting.

Light Karma: If you have more Light marks than Dark marks, and make a dice roll, you may reroll the dice before knowing the result of the roll. Doing this removes one Light mark from a character.

Additionally, a Light character may elect to expend 1 Light mark per two character levels in order to change any specific dice's roll into it's maximum value, this effect does not threaten a critical hit if used on an attack roll. Thus, an saving throw could be a 20 result on a d20, while a damage roll would only max one of the dice rolled.

Striking Light: If you have more Light marks than Dark marks, and make a damage roll, you may reroll all of the dice, and you then remove one Light mark.

Healing Acupressure(Ex): Light-souled people can heal an other creature with a range of Touch as a standard action. The amount healed is equal to their character level (or 1/2 their HD). This ability only works on currently living creatures, and creatures that are healed by healing effects.

Light Blast[Light](Su): Light-souled people are literally brimming over with energy, and can channel it into brilliant Light beams that drive out the darkness.

Light souled creatures may cast a modified version of Scorching Ray. This effect looks like it is made of brilliant Light light instead of fire, and deals Holy damage instead of Fire damage. Light creatures are unaffected, and Dark and Grey creatures take full damage.

In addition, a struck target gives off illumination as if they were affected by the Light spell. This effect dispells [Dark] effects that have a minimum caster level that are lower than the levels or HD of the character using this ability.

Quick! Take my hand!(Ex): A light souled character may expend a Light mark in order to assume that any spell or effect targeting an other creature now targets themselves. This ability can only work on creatures that the character is adjacent to at least once between when the effect targets the character, and the end of the light-souled character's turn. If the light-souled character declares that they are using this ability, and are unable to reach adjacency with the ally they are trying to assist, they do not lose the Light mark (it is returned), and the ally must still be affected by the original effect. This ability merely re-directs effects away from allies, and cannot be used if an ally failed a saving throw already.

[Yes, this creates wierd probablity liches, I'm okay with that, since then there is massive tension to see if the good PC can save the intended target. The awesome thing is that a PC can use on an enemy, and then earn light points as a result. This makes sense. Since the paladin pulling an enemy soldier from an earthquake or living fireball's path did a good thing, and therefore should be encouraged.]

Grey
I am charred, frozen and maimed. You will pay much for me to save you all.

Grey Soul: If you Light and Dark marks are within 2 points of difference per character level you count as a Grey Soul.

Grey-souled people look out for themselves, and will not help others without an incentive. They do not care for risking their neck, nor do they wish to actively harm others, as such they are hard to be affected by the Light or the Dark.

Clouded Karma(Su): Grey souls do whatever they need to survive. A grey character can spend 2 marks (either one of each, or two of one type) in order to re-roll the last dice roll that they have made. This ability can only be used once per round.

Meditation(Ex): With prayer and regulated breathing, a Grey character can heal themself and any adjacent allies with a full-round action. This ability heals an amount of hit points equal to the character's level (or 1/2 the creature's HD). This ability works on living and non-living creatures only, but not on undead creatures.

A clear mind, a clear path(Ex): As a non-action, a Grey character may expend either a Light or Dark mark in order to remove any mind-affecting effects on themself, see through any illusionary effects, gain the benefits of the Freedom of Movement spell, and suppress any Light or Dark power or effect that occurs within a 10 foot radius of the Grey character. These effects last until the start of the Grey character's next round.

Check your six!(Ex): A grey-souled character may expend a Light or Dark mark in order to grant any creature within close range the ability to re-roll a saving throw for an effect that the Grey-souled character is able to observe. This can be done after the creature has already rolled, but before it has been determined if the creature made the save or not.

[i.e. rolls should be called out, so that grey-souled PCs are given a chance to warn someone. This means monsters and NPCs and BBEGs as well. If Bobba Fett can't save Darth Vader, or save Han Solo, then he's not really very grey, is he? He could kill either, but he also needs to be able to save either if it is in his best interest]

Dark
MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN! MAIM KILL BURN!

DarkSoul: If your Dark marks are greater than your Light marks by at least 2 per character level, then you count as a Dark soul.

Dark-souled people become that way by harming others for their own benefit. They have the least control of themselves. However, the world has a tendency to reward their karma.

Dark Karma: If you have more Dark marks than Light marks, and fail a dice roll, you may remove one Dark mark, or gain an additional Dark mark.

You may elect to fail a dice roll against a level-appropriate challenge, if you do so you may remove five (5) Dark marks on your character, or gain five (5) Dark marks.

Striking Darkness: If you have more Dark marks than Light marks, and make a damage roll, you may reroll all of the dice, then remove one Dark mark.

Dark Blast[Dark](Su): Dark-souled people are literally brimming over with Dark energy, and can channel it into pitch Dark beams that suck the very light out of the air.

Dark souled creatures may cast a modified version of Scorching Ray. This effect looks like it is made pure darkness instead of fire, and deals Unholy damage instead of Fire damage. Dark creatures are unaffected, and Light and Grey creatures take full damage.

In addition, a struck target gives off illumination as if they were affected by the Darkness spell. This effect dispells [Light] effects that have a minimum caster level that are lower than the levels or HD of the character using this ability.

MAIM! KILL! BURN!(Ex): If a Dark-souled character deals any amount of melee damage, kills a living creature, or sets anything on fire, they may spend a move action to heal themself or an other creature. This ability heals an amount of hit points equal to the character's level (or 1/2 the creature's HD). This ability works on living and undead creatures only.

Rah! Flee now fools!(Ex): A Dark-souled character may expend a Dark mark in order to assume any spell or effect targeting an other creature now targets themselves. This ability can only work on creatures that are within close range of the Dark-souled character using this ability. In addition, any creatures adjacent to the Dark-souled character are also targeted by the effect at the end of their next round if they remained adjacent to the character that used this ability.

This ability merely re-directs effects away from allies, and cannot be used if an ally failed a saving throw already.

[Yes this will lead to weird situations
"I Finger of death the Evil Overlord", "
I use Rah! Flee now fools! to warn him of this."
"WTF man?" "
I charge the Evil Overlord, and all of his adjacent elite bodyguards. Looks like someone just cast a bunch of FoDs in one round. Eh, man?" "Oh. Awesome"
... I don't know if I'm okay with this, or not. It does bring up interesting tactics. The Light and Grey characters can regen Light points by using their abilities, while a Dark character can save an ally, and then potentially use the ability offensively.]
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:59 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

What's the distinction, if any, between "non-living" (grey healing) and "undead" (black healing)?
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Constructs are un-living.
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Post by MartinHarper »

Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:The problem I see is that one of those 3 shades is going to end up being mechanically superior to the others.
We can balance class X against class Y. What makes it harder to balance light against dark?
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Post by Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp »

MartinHarper wrote:
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:The problem I see is that one of those 3 shades is going to end up being mechanically superior to the others.
We can balance class X against class Y. What makes it harder to balance light against dark?
Not trying to derail this thread, but can you show me 2 classes that are balanced vs. each other aka properly built this class beats enemies the same % of times vs. the other class?
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Post by MartinHarper »

Your system allows is Dark characters to become Grey by spending their Dark karma striking things. Is that right? I liked the approach in Paladin, where when you spend Dark 'animus' on something, you also lose an equal amount of Light animus, if you have it.

Traditionally, people with good karma can expect quick painless deaths, while people with bad karma can expect horrific slow deaths, or worse. Here's a Dark-only quality that riffs on that.

I deserve a painful death: you do not fall unconscious when dying - instead you become helpless and stunned and in terrible pain. When petrified you remain aware of your environment and able to feel pain. If anything would kill you instantly, you instead start dying. While dying you lose one Dark mark per round.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

uh... i took a while in responding, so... moved this to the next post.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

MartinHarper wrote:
Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:The problem I see is that one of those 3 shades is going to end up being mechanically superior to the others.
We can balance class X against class Y. What makes it harder to balance light against dark?
Wait, what? I don't recall that post by Bill... it's from the other thread I'm guessing.

I'm just working on this stuff offline before I put up an update.
MartinHarper wrote:Your system allows is Dark characters to become Grey by spending their Dark karma striking things. Is that right? I liked the approach in Paladin, where when you spend Dark 'animus' on something, you also lose an equal amount of Light animus, if you have it.
Yes, however, if they are killing things, then they get Dark points back. Same with Light characters, they can burn Light points in order to power Light-based attacks.

Earning, and more importantly keeping Light points is harder than Dark points. However Light points are slightly more useful.

Also, even a Light character or a Grey character can quickly return/redeem themselves if their start to intentionally fail saving throws.
Traditionally, people with good karma can expect quick painless deaths, while people with bad karma can expect horrific slow deaths, or worse. Here's a Dark-only quality that riffs on that.

That's good.... but I don't want Dark characters living longer than Light characters, unless Light characters get a commensurately sized bonus or ability.
I deserve a painful death: you do not fall unconscious when dying - instead you become helpless and stunned and in terrible pain. When petrified you remain aware of your environment and able to feel pain. If anything would kill you instantly, you instead start dying. While dying you lose one Dark mark per round.
Too good to take to heaven: You do not fall unconsious when dying - instead you become stunned and prone. When in this state you are aware of your environment and are able to communicate with any of your abilities (speech, telepathy, etc.) with a maximum range of any creature that is adjacent to you or in your square. If anything would kill you instantly, instead you start dying. While dying you lose one Light mark per round.

I guess that works. Grey needs an ability now.

Really, the best way to keep this balanced is to give all three a similar power if you give any one of them a power.

Eventually this will lead to having lists of several powers for every of the three flavours.

..... I'm also realizing that this is "sort" of like the "colour" classes from the M:tG based game. Except that I only have 3 here.Whatever.
===============


Bill, there's really no way to balance even Tome characters perfectly. Just close enough that the difference between a real sub-performer and an optimized character are still on the RNG. Which, can be an 18 or 19 point difference.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bigode »

Judging__Eagle wrote:Bill, there's really no way to balance even Tome characters perfectly. Just close enough that the difference between a real sub-performer and an optimized character are still on the RNG. Which, can be an 18 or 19 point difference.
Hilarious statement. No mention of option differences. BTW, that leaves me curious: is it possible to make a wizard that, without factoring in infinite loops and similarly retarded stuff, can be effective while not caring what any of their numbers, other than spells/day/level, are?
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

I never said that there was a difference of opinion. You can't balance things perfectly. Even if they are the same class, with the same stats, same feats and same gear, they will perform differently due to location, timing, random chance, even if the same player played both characters, they wouldn't be the same in the game.

It's just that as long as the characters are in as narrow a RNG band as possible, then it doesn't really matter in the long run.
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Post by MartinHarper »

Judging__Eagle wrote:Even a Light character or a Grey character can quickly return/redeem themselves if their start to intentionally fail saving throws.
Oh, I thought that the Dark Karma power was restricted to Dark Souls?
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

MartinHarper wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:Even a Light character or a Grey character can quickly return/redeem themselves if their start to intentionally fail saving throws.
Oh, I thought that the Dark Karma power was restricted to Dark Souls?
Well, I'm talking about fallen paladins in that example, or people who went all "Hera-controlled" on their family, or something.

People that suddenly got a mad pile of Dark marks, and want to redeem themselves fast.

The problem is that you will probably have to get yourself mortified, and that can probably be a bad deal.

....

I'm not sure if I particlularily like the idea that a paladin starts whipping themself in order speed up the redeeming of themselves, or starts walking in the way of spells that were directed at an other character.....

I want that to be possible too. I want characters to be able to put themselves in the way of spells, or even pull other characters into the way of spells as living sheilds.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Bigode »

JE, I said "option", not "opinion" - as in, you talked about only numbers as if it was enough. That might change your answer somewhat. Or not; let's see.
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Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
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LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Hmm.

Well, really... option differences don't really matter, as long as they are level appropriate options. Which brings the big deal back to the RNG.

If you had monks, and say they didn't get the option to Airwalk or Fly later on, but they instead had +90' of movement (instead of airwalk), and +120' feet of speed instead of Fly, then the game would "probably" be balanced.

Not as much, but if a character has less options, giving them more numbers, or at least making their existing options have as much "oomph" as any other characters, then a campaign can keep going.

There are more problems when the Huge Teifling Monk (Prak made a man-goat monk in a game Uber was running) and Aasimar Barbarian (a character idea of a friend of mine who uses a small list of characters over and over) aren't able to deal with monsters as the human monk1/bard1/rogue1/fighter X (my character, I got the beguiler mad b/c I had lots of Knowledge checks and spot/listen checks higher than his; this character could deal something like... 18 Con damage per round to anything with an AC under 40 (and less if I had to actually roll his attack rolls)).

Now, all three could all be melee-based characters, but one of them was swinging for something like... 11d6+30 three times every round; I had 6 small attacks that dealt a bunch of Con damage; Prak's monk had... I don't really recall, ranged sonic blasting balls, teleporting + snapping necks and uh... I'm not sure what else.

Now, at this point none of the characters even share the same type of RNG. Only one deals real damage. The other is meant to murder living creatures only. The last has blast-radius attacks, is able to teleport and do wierd shit.

But they were all pretty close to each other in terms of power despite the pretty staggering differences in how each of the three killed enemies.

as for this
is it possible to make a wizard that, without factoring in infinite loops and similarly retarded stuff, can be effective while not caring what any of their numbers, other than spells/day/level, are?
They'd care about their spells/day stat, and their DC stat. That's about it.

They'd also care about not getting killed, so saves, miss chances, stuff like that.
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Post by Bigode »

I think your example actually shows the opposite - the characters aren't numerically similar, and hopefully get equal slices of the options available. As for the wizard, that's kinda how any of them works - my wondering was whether it's possible to pretty much just win using unresistable effects (possibly as opening for stronger effects that are resistable, but will hit weakened targets) - and with no non-spell defenses; that'd prove the lack of need for RNG parity beyond doubt, but I'm afraid it's not that simple.
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LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Oh, ok, now I understand what you mean.

You're trying to determine of "the RNG" is something that needs to be kept in mind at all times.

I think that perhaps not. For the most part, if you remove spells and keep items to level-appropriate values, then no character will usually escape the RNG.

In terms of "to-hit" and "AC", the characters were all within each other of the RNG; and their "damage done" per round was probably pretty close.

30d6 + 144 is about 250 points of damage. The thing is, if she (Jaggyd) Whirlwinded with her ridiculous speed + flying gear; she could attack every creature within a 15' reach (and an 85' speed at lvl 14; we were in an underwater campaign for the start, so she was actually with a swim speed of 105') twice for 20d6 + 96. So... it's an okay one on one killer, but then becomes really dangerous if it can attack two or more enemies per round (dealing more 'total' damage per round, but said damage would need to be spread out).

The 18 con damage is going to reduce the creature's Con mod by 9 points; so 9 damage for ever HD that the creature has; +about 100 damage. This character can instead just use whirlwind and deal 6 Con damage to several targets and something like 40 or so other damage.

The monk (this was Prak's btw) had a bunch of fighting styles. Stuff that dealt con damage, and speed, and movement abilities. The "sonic blast" fighting style also dealt vile damage. >_< As well as having a combination of the "your attacks deal force damage" + "you can shoot fire shots from your hands or eyes." Allowing the character to have 3 ranged attacks that dealt 14d6 force damage. While, those abilities aren't combat ending, they're nothing to sneeze at when you're level 14.

They all dealt about the same damage, and had about the same to-hit, and pretty close ACs.

The thing is, I'm not really sure how many irresistable effects there are that pave the way for stronger, but resistable, abilities. Most of the "spells that fucking kill people" require a saving throw.

[edit]

Okay... the RNG is important, but it applies to things that are kept close to each other anyway. Attack modifiers, saving throws, etc.

How a PC kills their enemy (Barbarian rage dice, Monk special abilities, Fighter's dipping into all sorts of stuff in order to get damage options, Knights declared enemy dice, Pally smite-evil dice, Samurai auto-crits) will probably vary, but they're still doing damage, and the damage is usually going to average about the same in the long run.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MartinHarper »

So the Dark hero "tanks" by being present, because bad luck has a habit of sticking to him and thus avoiding the rest of the party, while the Light hero "tanks" by stepping into the path of crossbow bolts?
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Grey Heroes tank b/c they're Bobba Fett or Sgt. Apone. They've got a job to do, so they go and do it.

I'm guessing something along the following lines.

Quick! Take my hand!(Ex): A light souled character may expend a Light mark in order to assume that any spell or effect targeting an other creature now targets themselves. This ability can only work on creatures that the character is adjacent to at least once between when the effect targets the character, and the end of the light-souled character's turn. If the light-souled character declares that they are using this ability, and are unable to reach adjacency with the ally they are trying to assist, they do not lose the Light mark (it is returned), and the ally must still be affected by the original effect. This ability merely re-directs effects away from allies, and cannot be used if an ally failed a saving throw already.

[Yes, this creates wierd probablity liches, I'm okay with that, since then there is massive tension to see if the good PC can save the intended target. The awesome thing is that a PC can use on an enemy, and then earn light points as a result. This makes sense. Since the paladin pulling an enemy soldier from an earthquake or living fireball's path did a good thing.]

Check your six!(Ex): A grey-souled character may expend a Light or Dark mark in order to grant any creature within close range the ability to re-roll a saving throw for an effect that the Grey-souled character is able to observe. This can be done after the creature has already rolled, but before it has been determined if the creature made the save or not.

[i.e. rolls should be called out, so that grey-souled PCs are given a chance to warn someone. This means monsters and NPCs and BBEGs as well. If Bobba Fett can't save Darth Vader, or save Han Solo, then he's not really very grey, is he? He could kill either, but he also needs to be able to save either if it is in his best interest]

Rah! Flee now fools!(Ex): A Dark-souled character may expend a Dark mark in order to assume any spell or effect targeting an other creature now targets themselves. This ability can only work on creatures that are within close range of the Dark-souled character using this ability. In addition, any creatures adjacent to the Dark-souled character are also targeted by the effect at the end of their next round if they remained adjacent to the character that used this ability.

This ability merely re-directs effects away from allies, and cannot be used if an ally failed a saving throw already.

[Yes this will lead to weird situations
"I Finger of death the Evil Overlord", "
I use Rah! Flee now fools! to warn him of this."
"WTF man?" "
I charge the Evil Overlord, and all of his adjacent elite bodyguards. Looks like someone just cast a bunch of FoDs in one round. Eh, man?" "Oh. Awesome"
... I don't know if I'm okay with this, or not. It does bring up interesting tactics. The Light and Grey characters can regen Light points by using their abilities, while a Dark character can save an ally, and then potentially use the ability offensively.]
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

There needs to be a way to "fall" faster. If you're the good guy for an entire campaign, but you rape a little girl at the end (for kicks, none of the "greater good" bullshit), you should auto-fall.
-Preparing for a future scene [research, preparing weapons, buying supplies etc.] up to +1 Light or +1 Dark per adventure.
?
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Post by violence in the media »

Psychic Robot wrote:
-Preparing for a future scene [research, preparing weapons, buying supplies etc.] up to +1 Light or +1 Dark per adventure.
?
I think that's supposed to be the prep montage. Going to the church library to research the history of Vlad the Impaler (he could have been a sailor), getting your holy water and garlic necklaces, and having the priest bless your Bowie knives would all probably be light-side scene prep.

Dark side would be stitching and fitting your skin-suit, performing the Blood Eagle sacrifice to boost your Earth Power, or peeing on the Holy Avenger you stole from the temple.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Buying poison, or blessing your weapon. Those things earn Dark of Light points.

Things could be taken further, and even weapon choice can be light or dark.

Something like a sword would be fine, since people can see that you're armed.
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Post by violence in the media »

Ok, so ignore priest David Bowie and the holy avenger.
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Post by Heath Robinson »

Psychic Robot wrote:There needs to be a way to "fall" faster. If you're the good guy for an entire campaign, but you rape a little girl at the end (for kicks, none of the "greater good" bullshit), you should auto-fall.
I seem to remember the intent being cold-hearted utilitarian morality. Permitting the good guys a few horrific transgressions gets that across most remarkably well.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Well, the person that the 'adventurer' sexually assaulted will still be around. So the adventurer will either try to atone, since the victim is still a reminder of a fall, or even try to earn the victim's forgiveness.

The thing is, it's probably harder to stay good or evil than it is to be neutral. So the white knight is really not going to want to waste losing 1/2 a white mark that he uses to win fights or survive death.

Also, it's going to be not just one dark mark. It will have to be many.

Every single action that was committed up and until the attack would generate black marks. Lying, betrayal, theft, and other dark acts would all come piling down.

Day to day, you don't really count marks that exist in the 'background'. Only what actions are done in a session would ever count towards mark-counting.

Actually, if you can describe how the little girl attack would be done by a good character, then we could calculate out how many dark marks are generated. I'm betting that it's enough dark marks to wipe out all of the light ones. Or at least really make the standing fall of a very light character.

A character that perhaps almost never used their light points on anything might not even have to attack the girl. Look at how many women threw themselves at knights who weren't necessarily very heroic. Now imagine if the knight is positively glowing?

Yeah, I want to have more effects on the game.

Social Interaction:
Maybe light is good at diplomacy, they're good, right? so they will be believed to say things that make people feel happy or at ease.

Maybe grey is good at negotiation. They make more per deal than other characters to. Like a mercenary, or professional freelance. Now, while more gold is cool, it shouldn't mean that lots of gold is game breaking, nor that lots of gold ever becomes useless. (this is important, b/c if Lights are making deals with monsters; Greys better be making deals with them)

Dark would be all about intimidation. Which would use it 'like' diplomacy, but more as a means of ordering immediate actions.

I also want a list of "powers" or "features" that cost marks; both to get (so, some powerful knights have wings, but most just have a magical ground-based steed, and decent ones have a flying steed), and to maintain (or activate?).

The interesting thing is that I want every character to be a potential paladin or blackgaurd.....although, i want paladins to still exist, "shades" of paladinhood should be possible imo. I want there to be a drunken, whoring paladin who has a rhino as his mount, and a wings-of-light paladin with a sword made of pure fire.

Does this sound like a better way of dealing with alignments than BoED and BoVD did? Instead of making PrCs, I'm just making a system that a barbarian or an assasian can plug into, or at least I hope so.

===========

new additional ideas:

So, basically that says "spend a light mark, use your remaining light marks (or lvl) on your next diplomacy check"))

Grey will have something that applies to Appraise/Search/Spot/Listen checks, and Dipomacy checks related to Negotiating for a larger reward from other creatures.

Black will have intimidate (and have intimidate usable at Close (25' + 5'/2 character lvls) range); and Intimidate can be used to control/scare other people.

.... I might even have uses of Intimidate generate black marks; if you succeed in scaring someone badly enough.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crimson_Pirate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7DVs-1PWYw&NR=1

And yes, it's a 50's pirate movie.
With a flamethrower, a "Gatling-gun" made out of muskets stuck through a the spokes of a pair of wooden wheels and fastened in place, nitroglycerin bombs (barely used really), and a freaking submarine. I can't find footage of the "land" battle, which is where the flamethrower (it looks like a Warhammer Dwarf flame-cannon thing; the boys at Games Workshop pretty much copied this weapon from the movie) and Gatling-gun are used, but you probably have a good idea as to what they would look like at this point.

Also, the little movie clip shows what an entire crew of rogues would be like if they snuck-attack a crew of marines and sailors. They literally sneak up on a ship that is at sea, and get a whole surprise round of sneak attacks before the real fight starts.
Watching that fight scene also gives me ideas as to what a "Light" character can do to beat enemies, but not kill them. Burt Lancaster's character punches and clobbers all through the fight, but he doesn't actually kill or stab anyone. The "bad guys" do however, they use their sabers to stab and kill the pirates that they fight.
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