Help wanted: Assistance with character generation!

[Roy]

Plenty. Starting with getting 3 save or sucks out of 1 5th level spell (bolts of bedevilment). Also, Artificers. Warforged are good beatsticks, for what that's worth.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The FAQ/Sage has repeated said that you can sneak attack with spells, and the above tactic dishes out more damage than the acid-rogue and has better flavor (fire to the face), in my opinion. You can take Double Wand Wielder with he level 10 rogue ability (instead of Perfect TWF) and dumpster-dive for spells that require lots of touch attacks for more damage, if so you desire.

I admit that I don't like it, but it is here to stay.

Careful with the slippery slope there, STW. Just because epic spellcasting literally causes the universe to explode doesn't mean that we shouldn't worry about cleric archers.

[Bigode]

I can name at least one Rogue that argues effectively for acid to be better for rogues to use than any other weapon.

That's called "an acid build" in CO (unfortunate off-forum implications of the term aside) jargon, not an argument for their current uniform superiority. Duh. Weren't you the one emphatically defending greatsword rogue concepts?

Well, there are two reasons. One is because I do feel that it's not really thematic, (...)

You do. I can point to real-world examples of acid/fire being distinctly worse when applied to the face than most if not all other places. And I genuinely don't see what property commonly encountered in fantasy worlds makes that go away; also, see Joker as example as it being one of the possible rogue concepts. Besides, whatever houserules anyone has on thematic grounds aren't anyone else's problem. Remember, the key here's "houserule" because it's immensely clear what RAW says about direct flask hits - ironically, I'm not 100% sure I'm able to prove that splashes don't get precision damage as well, though I didn't spend time on it.

(...) and the second is that there's a power reason. Once you allow rogues to sneak attack with acid flasks, they become effectively the only sneak attack weapon people are going to use. Now some people are okay with that, and I can understand if you are.

But personally I want the dagger throwing rogue or the rogue with a crossbow to be viable too.

I didn't say I am (OK). I pointed it as a problem. I didn't say anything against solving it via one of a myriad possible houserules (again, houserules - and I don't think they're the Devil's work or anything like that, even on thematic grounds as long as balance implications are addressed decently). I wouldn't even understand if someone else was actually OK with it.

Also, I do allow sneak attacks at range up to the weapon's range increment, because I think it's stupid you can't be any kind of sniper rogue.

Congratu-fvcking-lations. You introduced an actual fvcking reason to use some of the weapons other than flasks per-RAW (no, it doesn't include everything I can consider rogue-iconic, indeed, but it does include the 2 kinds of weapons with decent claims to being best among non-splash rangeds - bows and crossbows), and I mean the actual reason of perhaps not being within charge range of whatever you attack that might perhaps survive, or their closely-situated allies; also, greater ease of cover/flight/whatever. And you can't even notice you did it, seemingly. Wanna include the weapons left out? You better start by making throwing weapons not being crap in themselves, for example. After that, more houserules as needed; alternatively, just weaken the damn flasks if you must, but don't come saying that how they work's either nonsensical in fluff or unclear in crunch - either's about as clear-cut as possible.

What if they took Double Wand Wielder and shot 2 Rays of Frost each round at level 3?

Heh, that won't iterate later.

What about a Dual Wand Wielder Scorching Ray (CL7) Rogue? They get 4 SA/round. Each one is 4d6+SA and is obtainable at level 5, using the above tactics and creating the wands with previous wands to reduce the cost.

You can take Double Wand Wielder with he level 10 rogue ability (instead of Perfect TWF) and dumpster-dive for spells that require lots of touch attacks for more damage, if so you desire.

No, they don't. Both Complete Garbage and Rules Compendium agree that precision damage only applies to 1 attack/spell. And yeah, I know you could attempt something from the "it's attacks, and this is the sneak attack text - read it" angle, but ignoring both texts intended to sort that kinda effect out's fishy in practice at best - assuming of course that one knows about these texts, but you do now.

Anyways, I am likely to play in an Eberron campaign soon, myself. Is there anything good out of the Eberron source books?

Planar shepherd, Faiths of Craperron.

Sorry.

[Roy]

Deriding Eberron = Epic Fail.

[Bigode]

Deriding Eberron = Epic Fail.

To wit, doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion; going with TGD naming convention (hell, I'd even use Tome of 9 Papercuts, but I think Weeaboo Fightan Magik caught up waaaaaay better), and besides, it's as easy a pun as they come. But anyway, hell, I like a lot of the stuff made for Eberron - but whoever came with the idea of "if it has a place anywhere, it has one in Eberron" ... needs to ... nah, won't spend brainpower imagining enough pain, I'm not even sure whether I'm able to do so ...

[Roy]

Deriding Eberron = Epic Fail.

To wit, doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion; going with TGD naming convention (hell, I'd even use Tome of 9 Papercuts, but I think Weeaboo Fightan Magik caught up waaaaaay better), and besides, it's as easy a pun as they come. But anyway, hell, I like a lot of the stuff made for Eberron - but whoever came with the idea of "if it has a place anywhere, it has one in Eberron" ... needs to ... nah, won't spend brainpower imagining enough pain, I'm not even sure whether I'm able to do so ...

Official source of this? And why would it be papercuts?

In any case, even if you didn't like it, given that your alternatives are FR (already covered in multiple Fail threads) and homebrew wank it still wins. So eh.

[Lago PARANOIA]

What you (Bigode) and Frank are overlooking with the Joker example is that they threw one flask of acid. One.

Now imagine a character throwing dozens of acid flasks in a minute. It's definitely a funny image and if you're some sort of superjester like Dhuulmagus it can be really awesome. But why should this be the dominant attack paradigm for rogues? I don't mind it being an option but I do mind it being flat-out superior.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I thought the FAQ said that anything with a touch attack could have SA. It has been a long time I read through it, admittedly.

[Bigode]

Official source of this? And why would it be papercuts?

Page 2, but there ya go. And "official source" for TGD nomenclature's a new layer of awesome - maybe something to do with we having an overlord now ... for some reason, that doesn't strike me as good news, though. As for papercuts: ask JE, but I guess it's him thinking (and being largely right) that it didn't go far enough (possibly not even near it).

In any case, even if you didn't like it, given that your alternatives are FR (already covered in multiple Fail threads) and homebrew wank it still wins. So eh.

Fail. I can pick a setting from wherever the fvcking fvck I want (well, in the domain of fantasy, and keeping the intended level band in mind, but you get what I mean) and have D&D rules fit it at worst as well (Er, would "slightly less badly" be more appropriate?) as they "fit" FR/Eberron as far as NPC descriptions and the fvcking novels go (watch me care about the latter, but anyway). And honestly, do you know my homebrew?

Yes, you can calm down now. I'm not about to defend its artistic merit. But I am about to make the IMO somewhat huge argument that, honestly, I'd go straight to tailoring stuff to my group, without passing through stuff that might register as clutter to either me or my players.

What you (Bigode) and Frank are overlooking with the Joker example is that they threw one flask of acid. One.

Now imagine a character throwing dozens of acid flasks in a minute. It's definitely a funny image and if you're some sort of superjester like Dhuulmagus it can be really awesome.

Yeah, until now, you failed hard at identifying any problem. OK, I do know you didn't try yet. But ...

[The following also applies to RC.]

But why should this be the dominant attack paradigm for rogues? I don't mind it being an option but I do mind it being flat-out superior.

I'd understand people not reading me - for whatever reason. But people are addressing me by name and seem to not actually be reading what I say - namely, where's my support for flask sneak attack domination? Where's me denying or attacking houserules that could fix it, or for that matter, where did the exact opposite go that no one sees it?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Where's me denying or attacking houserules that could fix it, or for that matter, where did the exact opposite go that no one sees it?

We're not, we're (or at least just I am) bitching at a Class 'D' bug in the game and you're just the lightning rod because you fully laid out the case for why it works.

[Judging__Eagle]

Deriding Eberron = Epic Fail.

To wit, doesn't necessarily reflect my personal opinion; going with TGD naming convention (hell, I'd even use Tome of 9 Papercuts, but I think Weeaboo Fightan Magik caught up waaaaaay better), and besides, it's as easy a pun as they come. But anyway, hell, I like a lot of the stuff made for Eberron - but whoever came with the idea of "if it has a place anywhere, it has one in Eberron" ... needs to ... nah, won't spend brainpower imagining enough pain, I'm not even sure whether I'm able to do so ...

Official source of this? And why would it be papercuts?

In any case, even if you didn't like it, given that your alternatives are FR (already covered in multiple Fail threads) and homebrew wank it still wins. So eh.

Before your time both on the WoTC boards and TGD I'm guessing. After some re-discussion about ToWPT:Bo9Pcuts, Koumei summed it up the best:

Wow, so they really only scratch the very basics of what a character should be able to do.

Draco Argentum wrote a very detailed analysis of pretty much every thing in the book. I made up the name b/c of his review. It was originally too long, but "book of 9 papercuts" is a great shortening of the title.

Personally, my own reasoning for acid flasks being okay is that if I poured acid on one part of a person, and then poured it on a different part, then one of the two would do more damage. Ideally, one would always endeavor to strike a weak point as often as possible. With any type of aimable attack. Acid flasks are really no different from other types of attacks.

[Quantumboost]

Where's me denying or attacking houserules that could fix it, or for that matter, where did the exact opposite go that no one sees it?

We're not, we're (or at least just I am) bitching at a Class 'D' bug in the game and you're just the lightning rod because you fully laid out the case for why it works.

Before you can properly classify a bug (i.e., as a Class 'D') you have to determine whether or not it's actually a bug. It's been demonstrated in this very thread that acid flask sneak attacks are documented as correct behavior, and there've been solid arguments that this is desirable (or at least not-out-of-line).

You can claim that it's bad design, or doesn't match the flavor you want, but acid sneak attacks are not a bug.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Before you can properly classify a bug (i.e., as a Class 'D') you have to determine whether or not it's actually a bug. It's been demonstrated in this very thread that acid flask sneak attacks are documented as correct behavior, and there've been solid arguments that this is desirable (or at least not-out-of-line).

You can claim that it's bad design, or doesn't match the flavor you want, but acid sneak attacks are not a bug.

I'm calling it a bug because I'm almost certain that the game designers of 3.X did not intend for acid flasks to be the best vector for sneak-attacking with. It's a completely harmless bug from a mechanical standpoint and flavor-wise it's pretty subjective whether it's a bug or not, because there are characters out there who would go buzzsaw blitz with acid flasks--but I'm arguing that it was not the flavor that the game designers intended.

At any rate, here's where the talk about bugs and such came from: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48577

[Quantumboost]

Ah, okay. I'd seen Frank's bug classification system before - didn't remember that it had a class for "preference bugs". Still doesn't feel right calling it a bug, but I'll cede the point.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

I find it to be a class 'C, the 'if everyone uses Weapon A rather than Weapon B rather than out of personal preference'. Flasks are pretty much better than every other choice of weapon that a rogue has, which is a minor balance issue.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I find it to be a class 'C, the 'if everyone uses Weapon A rather than Weapon B rather than out of personal preference'. Flasks are pretty much better than every other choice of weapon that a rogue has, which is a minor balance issue.

I've been meaning to ask about that. Are acid flasks better than rogues with their pair of GMW'ed +1 flaming acidic frost vicious daggers? I've just been taking it as conventional wisdom, but...

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Yes.

Touch Attacks.

Level obtained. Acid is a level 1 weapon. The above is above that by a significant margin.

[Draco_Argentum]

Draco Argentum wrote a very detailed analysis of pretty much every thing in the book. I made up the name b/c of his review. It was originally too long, but "book of 9 papercuts" is a great shortening of the title.

That wasn't me, you can tell because your sentence says detailed analysis right after my name. It was Dragon Child who wrote it.

[Bigode]

Ah, okay. I'd seen Frank's bug classification system before - didn't remember that it had a class for "preference bugs". Still doesn't feel right calling it a bug, but I'll cede the point.

Class C bug - not because it works in itself, but because it's near-uniformly better than daggers, bows, crossbows, the works, and I'm pretty sure rogues were supposed to elect to use those instead.

Unless you believe the actual bug's in the other weapons, by being weaker than they should. And certainly throwing sucks, so you decide whether bows or flasks are the baseline from which performs closer to expected against challenges - and there's some argument that indeed it's bows that are bugged ...

[Lago PARANOIA]

That wasn't me, you can tell because your sentence says detailed analysis right after my name. It was Dragon Child who wrote it.

I loved Dragon Child's guide.

Way back when I was working on a more in-depth guide, but with 4th Edition out I sort of lost interest in reviewing it. I knew I shouldn't have started out with the stuff I wasn't interested in.

But you should DC's if you haven't already. It's funny.

[Username17]

Pounce rogues need to abuse wraith strike or something similar if they want to be as effective as a halfling hurler at medium levels. Halfling Hurlers need to abuse a ring of blink or something similar if they want to be as effective as a pounce rogue.

An effective D&D rogue:

• Gets a bunch of attacks,
• ...that are Sneak Attacks,
• ...that are Touch Attacks.

Of which the two best options both involve you to one degree or another phasing in and out of existence while you gibber and speed blender people. One of them involves you slapping knives on your shoes and having a combat style where you phase jump on your opponents and basically fac hump them to death. And the other involves throwing one or more kinds of deadly fluid at people's eyes and genitals from the ethereal plane and having the droplets come back into existence inside your opponent's clothing.

Both of those look kind of weird. But they are the D&D rogue. And refusing to do that is like being a D&D Wizard who refuses to carry a pouch full of batshit and a size changing book.

-Username17

[Amra]

I'm just loving how far this thread has mutated

The hurling of acid flasks has been a time-honoured tradition in more-or-less every campaign I've been running over the last too-many years, although nobody has ever tried taking it to the max as described here and I thus didn't cotton on to what was described as a Halfling Hurler until it was explained. My players adopted the general idea whole-heartedly after a discussion prompted by an enemy NPC I introduced who specialised in sneak-attacking with ray spells.

Once the sneak-touch-attack concept had been illustrated in all its gory glory, the floodgates opened and I was happy to see it, although my group have only ever used it as a peripheral tactic.

With regard to Weeaboo Fightan Magik, I wrote a massive review of it for my players, covering every individual maneuver in the book. Swathes were cribbed shamelessly from Dragon Child's guide - with attribution - although I did disagree on the utility of several maneuvers. I never posted it here because I was too late to the party.

For what it's worth, I think there's some useful stuff to be mined from Bo9S, although not in any way as the designers doubtless intended. There's stuff in there that's an absolute gift, in particular to Rogues.

[Judging__Eagle]

Whoops. Well, at least credit got to where it was due.

Uh... does anyone know where DC went to?

[Caedrus]

but whoever came with the idea of "if it has a place anywhere, it has one in Eberron" ... needs to ... nah, won't spend brainpower imagining enough pain, I'm not even sure whether I'm able to do so ...

I don't think you're understanding the meaning of that statement, Bigode. The implication was to say "this is such a broad setting that you can find a place to adapt pretty much anything from D&D into it." Not that you should simultaneously include everything from everywhere with a straight cut.

[Username17]

Actually, that was the core concept of Eberron in the first place. A setting that would be iconic for Third Edition because everything in 3rd edition D&D was in Eberron. That was in fact the stipulation on the original contest that it was drawn from. A contest that got so many entries that they were unable to even read them all and seriously just put them in alphabetical order and took one of the ones in the top pile (alphabetical order by author's name).

-Username17