Why does the Lady of Pain render gamers short in the pants?

[Psychic Robot]

Hey, some people have fantasies about fighting dragons, others have fantasies about winning important arguments.

Damn you.

[Starmaker]

All over the Internet, people throw the term around haphazardly. It now means "something I don't like". Similar to Weeaboo, really. It now just means "something I don't like".

[RandomCasualty2]

Hey, some people have fantasies about fighting dragons, others have fantasies about winning important arguments. Planescape is nice for the latter since winning arguments with talk is often fundamentally and mystically-arbitrarily more valuable to the cause than using more pugilistic methods. Going by the flavor, if you argue enough people into thinking that demons should be more reasonable, demons probably will become more reasonable.

Well I don't mind so much trying to change the philosophies of people. That's fine.

But when you've got some creature of absolute good talking to a creature of absolute evil, it's like some guy from the KKK talking to someone from the Black panthers. You know there's not going to be any headway there. In fact, it's a surprise if it doesn't come to blows.

[Roy]

[Avoraciopoctules]

But when you've got some creature of absolute good talking to a creature of absolute evil, it's like some guy from the KKK talking to someone from the Black panthers. You know there's not going to be any headway there. In fact, it's a surprise if it doesn't come to blows.

For the most part I agree with you. However, I think the smarter ones will avoid direct conflict when it would clearly be counterproductive to attack each other. Since it's theoretically possible to convert an outsider to some extent (since you have things like rogue modrons and fallen celestials), at least token efforts will be made in that direction.

[RandomCasualty2]

For the most part I agree with you. However, I think the smarter ones will avoid direct conflict when it would clearly be counterproductive to attack each other. Since it's theoretically possible to convert an outsider to some extent (since you have things like rogue modrons and fallen celestials), at least token efforts will be made in that direction.

Yeah I mean I think conversions can exist, but it's going to take something a lot stronger than "some guy in the tavern had a chat with me"

It'd take some kind of traumatic experience to really change the being.

Though I mean I could see a lot of conversions between the bordering alignments. I could see angels choosing to go NG instead of LG for instnace, or devils doing the same thing with evil.

[IGTN]

I think that arguments between (for instance) archons and demons are more for the benefit of bystanders than for eachother; the archon isn't trying to convince the demon that LG is the best way; he's trying to keep the demon from convincing everyone else that CE is the best way.

[Heath Robinson]

Yes, arguments between an archon and a demon are more akin to formal debates than domestic arguments. You're assigned a position (by the nature of your creation in this case) and you argue your side in the face of the other and then victory is determined by the audience.

I sometimes wonder how so many people overlook formal debating. It's been an omnipresent background factor in my upbringing; I've always been around people who participate in it.

[Grek]

That really doesn't work very well when you taken into consideration that A] most things in sigil have an "Always X alignment" tag, and B] even if you are able to change your alignment, it's a stupid idea because it will make your afterlife suck for you.

[CatharzGodfoot]

That really doesn't work very well when you taken into consideration that A] most things in sigil have an "Always X alignment" tag, and B] even if you are able to change your alignment, it's a stupid idea because it will make your afterlife suck for you.

(B) Angels and demons are already living the afterlife. Switching teams just means trading your current life on one plane for a different life on another plane. Tanar'ri, for example, are perfectly willing to give a deva blood war agent a great deal to turn rogue.

(A) It's specifically the case that in Planescape, "always" means "usually".

[Josh_Kablack]

The Den's prior go-round about Mary Sues

[Starmaker]

From what I have seen, the Lady of Pain is a designer and DM penis extension one hundred percent. It may be because of where I've read about her-namely the WotC message boards when I went there-but all I've seen of her is "lol you get flayed/mazed" "lol no u can't do dat LoP iz dere!" and other such things.

Lots of stuff produced by TSR is crap. There are modules that start with a "rocks fall everyone dies falls unconscious" encounter, and you're lucky if you awaken in an ordinary prison, not in the body of a flesh golem. There are accessories that give advice on destroying your campaign world just because it's exclusively yours and the players who have adventured in it for five years have to suck it up, the dipshits. But occasionally TSR produced something really good, and it seriously pisses me off to see my beloved setting's image ruined by retarded players and GMs.

See, Sigil has law enforcement, and its law enforcement is most certainly NOT the LoP. It's run by factions, which are like corps in Shadowrun. When the players start annoying citizens, Harmonium city guard shows up, arrests them and hands them over to the Fraternity of Order for judgment. If the sentence is death or imprisonment, Mercykillers carry it out. If the PCs escape at some point and continue to act like dipshits, Harmonium knights-errant or Fated bounty hunters or Doomguard assassins or Mercykiller executioners find them eventually. And this is just the law enforcement; there are over 9000 ways to ruin or end a person's life without involving it. When a fire mage fried a district in Hive (no faction cares about Hive, not even the Dustmen who have their headquarters there), he was stopped by concerned citizens who did not appreciate his actions (sauce: PST).

The Lady acts when there's a threat to Sigil itself, like Vecna trying to pull a Scry-and-Die or Duke Dipshit Dumbfvck trying to cast an epic Wish (both Mary Sues of the highest order) - not something PCs can do. What they can do is worshipping her or a certain god within the city, or killing city maintainers, something the DM is supposed to warn them against.

But overall I have to say that A) the Lady of Pain is an unnecessary addition to the cosmology that only exists to make people wet over the prospect of an omnipotent being and B) she isn't even a particularly interesting addition. I mean seriously, she has no meaningful interactions with anything besides randomly killing people and stuff-what the fuck is the point of her other than to make DMs feel big in the pants?

Again, she's not omnipotent, she's just very powerful in Sigil only. There is an infinite Multiverse where she cannot do anything at all. I admit she's not particularly interesting - just a plot device for Sigil to stay neutral ground, but she's more interesting that a flat "because I said so", and that's all that is required. If the LoP is slashing and mazing PCs for anything other than illegal worship and dabu-cide, the DM is blatantly disregarding everything in the setting and/or is retarded. If the PCs walk around the Lower Ward and bless passers-by in the name of Aoskar despite having been warned not to, they are not interested in the game and/or are retarded. So when the LoP is involved at all, it's a good sign something is seriously not right with the game.

On an unrelated note, Planescape as written is mostly not about converting others but acting in accordance to your own beliefs. The planes, being infinite, are home to quite a number of chaotic evil solars, lawful good balors, rogue modron and chaste succubi, but their stories are more interesting than being born with eyes of the wrong color or failing a charisma check. I am of the opinion that PC-initiated conversions should be teapartied with heavy player-DM collaboration.

[Amra]

The gods can give you an order, the powerful characters can push weaker people around and so on down the scale.

"It is the way of the world Baldrick: the abused always kick downwards. I am annoyed and so I kick the cat," [miaow] "the cat" [squeak] "pounces on the mouse, and finally the mouse" [argh!] "bites you on the behind."

"Well what do I do?"

"Nothing Baldrick, you are last in God's great chain. Unless, of course, there's an earwig around here that you'd like to victimise."

[Psychic Robot]

Mary Sues aren't always self-insert/wish-fulfillment characters. Mary Sues often are those things, but they aren't necessarily so. (Square is rectangle; rectangle might not be square.) I mean, I could write a black lesbian woman with a penchant for killing vampires, riding unicorns, taming dragons, and becoming Presidentess, but I don't think that would be a Mary Sue (considering none of those are aspects of me, and her successes aren't my successes). Edward from Twilight is a good example of a male Mary Sue (Marty Stu, herk). Isabelle is a good example of a self-insert Mary Sue because Stephenie Meyer is a fat sow.

[Josh_Kablack]

I really don't see why you even need a "phenomonal cosmic power, itty-bitty living space" character kicking the gods out of Sigil to justify having neutral ground.

I mean the setting is a city which has an nigh-infinite number of portals to everywhere. In any sort of inter-planar conflict it is both invaluable and utterly indefensible.

Any decent warlord, archmage, wannabe god or drunken troubadour can probably rouse enough minions to conquer such a city without even trying too hard. And yet the second they do so, any planar power with anything at all to defend becomes immediately hostile to them - it's the ultimate staging ground as the portals render all traditional and many magical defenses useless. However, a nigh-infinite number of these portals also lead inwards, leading to the inevitable pre-emptive strike by "coalitions of the willing" (ie paranoid) against anyone even appearing to be "in command" of the city.

The end result of such a set up is going to have to be a delicate balance-of-power between various factions and a gentleman's agreement to immediately assassinate anyone who ever gets too close to winning. This in turn leads to factions concealing their strengths and mainly pretending to play nice.

Which is largely the role that the LoP is supposedly serving in the setting.

[CatharzGodfoot]

The end result of such a set up is going to have to be a delicate balance-of-power between various factions and a gentleman's agreement to immediately assassinate anyone who ever gets too close to winning. This in turn leads to factions concealing their strengths and mainly pretending to play nice.

Which is largely the role that the LoP is supposedly serving in the setting.

Or the end result is that it is a blasted wasteland with planar armies constantly trying to sweep through on their way to somewhere else. Which is largely what the LoP is there to avoid.

[Fuchs]

Bloodwar, for one.

[Judging__Eagle]

An excellent quote from the other thread:

"But did it have to be made of sandstone?"
"There is little else," he explained sadly, "in the mountains beyond Katatonia."

[Roy]