In Gods We Trust(?)

[Fuchs]

I like the olympic Pantheon, with its imperfect, squabbling gods.

[Kaelik]

I don't understand why being able to surpass a god invalidates the concept of a cleric. You used to worship a god for power, now you've grown enough power and are a god on your own.

Because you are more powerful then a god (or smarter), but you aren't a god on your own, and in order to kill some gods, you have to still worship your god because all your power comes from that god.

You can't grant spells to others, you have no Divine Ranks, you aren't immortal, but you can totally teleport around killing gods. WTF is up with that?

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

I'm not seeing the problem. Whatever spells the god granted you, the god is likely able to replicate them. So if you're more powerful than a god that has all the cleric spells available to them that you have, more power to you.

And I don't see a problem with the idea of a god sponsoring their high cleric (the player) to go out and slay other gods that are enemies.

[Voss]

You don't see a problem with the god giving more power than he actually has? There are no logical problems there?

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

D&D works on a level and magic item system. The player not only gets the Cleric spells, but the extra HP and Attack bonuses for leveling up as well as the plethora of artifacts and magic items that help him/her defeat the enemies.

So it's not merely spells vs. spells.

[RandomCasualty2]

I actually think Eberron handled gods the best, in that clerics don't receive spells from them, they receive spells from just having faith in something. So you can have both mortal gods (like the Lord of Blades or the Inspired) and also intangible gods (like the Sovereign Host).

And if your mortal god dies, you don't necessarily lose your power, you now just become a cleric preaching about the return of the Lord of Blades and you can still cast your spells. Since a cleric's power comes internally, it also doesn't make you worry if a cleric surpasses his mortal god in terms of power.

I don't believe there should ever be the uber powered D&DG gods that can come to earth and just kick everyones ass whenever they want. As Frank said, that's just Elminster, only way worse.

[Roy]

Clerics of a concept is hardly specific to any edition. And since your power comes from faith, you may not ever know your god died (which in turn, causes you to believe they're still alive). In other words, it's circularly perpetuating.

[TavishArtair]

Clerics in AD&D always seemed to me to be like a knight in service of a king... the king is wiser, more powerful, and more experienced than the knight, and as such can probably kick any individual knight's ass in battle, which is part of why he is worthy of service, and you are yourself admittedly wise and formidable, which is why you're worthy of his patronage. But he's a limited being and probably busy doing godly things... which could, include, for instance, the social rituals which keep his knights fed and geared (and with cleric spells). So the king doesn't do everything.

Indeed, it might be more advantageous to the god's agenda to instead use his power to create proxies since he's basically participating in a pyramid scheme, and that makes him more powerful. Sure, in single combat, he's capable of doing a lot more damage, but advancing his agenda indirectly over time through many different hands might be far more valuable for gaining more power.

[Kaelik]

Clerics of a concept is hardly specific to any edition. And since your power comes from faith, you may not ever know your god died (which in turn, causes you to believe they're still alive). In other words, it's circularly perpetuating.

The point is that in Ebberron Gods cannot grant spells. No god anywhere can ever give spells to any Cleric. So therefore, hey, gods are just powerful people who convinced other powerful people to believe in them.

That's different from other settings in which gods do grant actual spells. Which means, well fuck, there is no reason ever for that god to lose to a cleric.

[Mr. Bane]

"he point is that in Ebberron Gods cannot grant spells"

So the clerics don't need gods? They are immaterial to the Cleric ability?

Then why have gods?

[ckafrica]

Not meaning to play a role vs. roll card, but do gods need a mechanical reason to exist? Can't they exist simply by being part of the flavour of the setting?

If the clerics get their powers simply by having faith in something, then they still need to have something to have faith in. Perhaps learning the rituals of spell casting is nothing more than ritualistic study of the arcane procedures and you only get that training from join a religious institutions, much like you need to have apprenticed yourself to a wizard in order to learn their style of spell casting.

[RandomCasualty2]

So the clerics don't need gods? They are immaterial to the Cleric ability?

Then why have gods?

For the same reason you have them in real life. Because people want something to believe in.

[Mr. Bane]

That doesn't make sense.

Because real life has complications we should add this to our pretendy fun time? What?

[ckafrica]

The power of a god, as the PCs encounter them is usually vested in his clerics, why would it matter whether that cleric gets them directly from that god or simply by believing in the cause that that god represents.

Sorry it can matter. You convince a cleric to betray his god and he will be powerless as the god revokes his powers or he can still use them because it is his belief in his actions that actually provides him with power. Even though his beliefs have done a 180, he has still learned to channel his will to create magic to support his belief system so an change in his belief system won't cause him to be without power (assuming he has not just has his will crumble. but those religious types are remarkably adaptable at morphing their belief systems to suit their needs)

[RandomCasualty2]

That doesn't make sense.

Because real life has complications we should add this to our pretendy fun time? What?

well sort of. Complications can be good. They add more factions to the world. Just like monks have monastic orders, wizards have wizard's guilds, clerics have religions.

And gods work a lot better if they're handled similar to how they are in real life, where faithful people claim to hear or interpret the word of god, but there is no actual big giant head which talks down to the worshipers.

[Akula]

That doesn't make sense.

Because real life has complications we should add this to our pretendy fun time? What?

If your pretendy fun time has everybody living in happy atheism then, no. What do you lose by including gods in some cursory role? If belief has benefits, and in dnd land it does, and the gods really exist and will totally kick your ass because they have crazy power if they ever get off of their deific asses and use it; then why not believe in something that personally speaks to you?

[Amra]

A "yes" from me here, with caveats. I'm all for the Greek pantheon style deities; basically whimsical superpowered beings who like to dick around with the mortal realms for shits and giggles, and who could and at the same time couldn't be killed, hampered by a load of restrictions negotiated between each other during their eternal bitch-fest.

1e/2e interpreted gods the way I like 'em. Scenarios like Queen of the Demonweb Pits had PC's running around layers of the Abyss with the specific goal of finding some deity and knifecriming them in the face until they died from it... BUT you couldn't kill a god forever (or even for very long) because they re-formed from the mystic candyfloss that permeates the spiritual wossnames of the wherever realms. And that's fine.

There were various not-terribly-consistent interpretations of how deities worked in publications like the Manual of the Outer Planes, Fiend Folio, Legends and Lore (Deities and Demigods if you prefer [1]), Monster Mythologies and whatnot, but it was easy to cherry-pick the bits that worked together.

What we ended up with was a situation where gods are superpowered beings who can't use their mighty mojo on the Prime Material Plane except through their mortal intermediaries or (rarely) via avatars, because of [Giant Frog]. They can't mount wars directly on opposing deities in their home planes because of the Accords of [Giant Frog] and although they can be killed, they'd pop back into existence again after [Giant Frog] weeks, months or years, depending on how many worshippers they have. While a face-stabbed deity pulls itself back together, their "essence" exists in a state of [Giant Frog], during which period they can only grant spells of up to 3rd level and their clerics have a generally shitty time of it. Some other deity-like beings also exist but don't usually bother granting spells or getting into arguments over the washing-up with the other gods because they're too busy doing [Giant Frog] and as such may help or hinder PC's on a mission to bitch-slap a god, depending on whether that god is doing something that will interfere with [Giant Frog].

Some deities can only be slain with a MacGuffin, because of [Giant Frog].

It has always worked pretty well for me and mine. Gods exist, they grant spells, and when you get badass enough you can go and knifecrime them to cause a temporary disruption to their evil master plans. Doing that causes a power vacuum for a time, which will almost certainly lead to the heroes having to go and sort out a secondary mess they've made as a result of clearing up the first one.

I'm not sure there is any actual *need*, as such, for gods to exist as anything more than background colour ("Yeah, mine says I can't eat jerky between midnight and 3 a.m. or I lose all my spells. Bummer, huh?") but they can be a handy device if they have a concrete existence and so why the hell not?

Forgotten Realms versions of deities, on the other hand, are total arse.

[1] I've got a mint copy of the 1st version where TSR screwed up and included all the Chaosium stuff without attribution, with stats for the likes of Cthulhu and Elric. I picked mine up from a car boot sale, where some guy who was selling off his shop stock had found a sealed carton of books in a back room.

[DragonChild]

"he point is that in Ebberron Gods cannot grant spells"

So the clerics don't need gods? They are immaterial to the Cleric ability?

Then why have gods? Sick

It's worth noting that the Eberron gods aren't like FR/Greyhawk. The four main religions are:

-The Soverign Host, which is a "folksy" pantheon with myths and folklores associated with it, with specific gods you pray to for specific favors/blessings. These gods don't have stats, avatars, etc - they don't "exist" like FR gods do. But if you pray to one and you have an especially good harvest, maybe they are doing something. Who knows.

-The Church of the Silver Flame - a powerful celestial and a human paladin joined together to bind/banish an extremely nasty demon, and became the silver flame, an actual physical "thing". People worship it, and some can hear the voice of the flame speaking to them. The religion is based around this. A single leader of the religion is "chosen" by the flame (who can be very young - the current one is like 12) and they have immense knowledge and wisdom, and are really high level near the flame... but weak away from it.

-Elven ancestral worship. Powerful elven mages become deathless (positive-energy undead, stupid, I know) ancestor and hang out and are worshiped by the living relatives. And the ones who aren't around anymore are worshiped too. In this case, if you become a super-powered elf, you eventually become a deathless when you retire.

-Blood of Vol. There's an ages old lich who started a cult around her. From the outside, it's just about blood, and magic, and seeking immortality. But the upper levels are pretty nasty and evil. She's one of the strongest characters in the setting, but is thought to be dead, so if she suddenly showed her face she'd lose most of her power center (the cults) and would have her rivals (big, nasty dragons - good and evil) trying to kill her.

I agree that if you're going to do gods, Eberron style is your best bet. I don't want Pelor to be someone I can teleport to and play cards with. I don't "get" religion myself - but it's a heavy part of human culture, and of fantasy worlds. It seems wrong to leave it out.

[Ganbare Gincun]

The Church of the Silver Flame - a powerful celestial and a human paladin joined together to bind/banish an extremely nasty demon, and became the silver flame, an actual physical "thing".

It's unfortunate that the demon that they were trying to vanquish became part of the "Silver Flame" and has discreetly run the Church Of The Silver Flame since its inception. Whereas the clerics of the Sovereign Host follow the dogma of their patron deities with a fair degree of fidelity, most of the high ranking members of the Church Of The Silver Flame are evil and the church as a whole has a history of cheerfully committing atrocities against those that are different from themselves.

I agree that if you're going to do gods, Eberron style is your best bet. I don't want Pelor to be someone I can teleport to and play cards with.

Actually, you CAN go and "play cards" with several of the "deities" in the game world. The Lord Of Blades may be venerated by some as a god, but he's still a 12th level character. The Dark God Vol is a 17th Level Half-Dragon Elf Lich Wizard. You could hunt down and kill these "gods" if you wanted to, but since Clerics in Eberron derive their power from their own faith rather then an external entity, they'll still be able to gain spells through prayer unless you can prove that their god is dead or powerless.

That being said, Eberron still probably provides one of the better models for gods, clerics, and religions in fantasy game worlds. They aren't nearly as disruptive or as powerful as gods in other settings because they aren't really gods per se - they are just a focus of worship for people with an abundance of faith. They don't have a fraction of the kind of personal power at their disposal that a god from the Forgotten Realms throws around.

I don't "get" religion myself - but it's a heavy part of human culture, and of fantasy worlds. It seems wrong to leave it out.

Gods don't exist in the "real world", and yet we have religion. Religion is ultimately born from a confluence of wishful thinking, an ignorance of how the natural world works, and our tendency as a species to organize ourselves in a hierarchical fashion. Forget D&D - religion is the original Magical Tea Party.

[Anguirus]

Gods don't exist in the "real world", and yet we have religion. Religion is ultimately born from a confluence of wishful thinking, an ignorance of how the natural world works, and our tendency as a species to organize ourselves in a hierarchical fashion. Forget D&D - religion is the original Magical Tea Party.

Not to be a dick here but you speak from exactly what authority on the matter of religion?

[Ganbare Gincun]

Not to be a dick here but you speak from exactly what authority on the matter of religion?

The authority that comes from applying critical thinking skills to religious ideas. But if you can prove that a god exists, I'll gladly retract the statement.

[RandomCasualty2]

I agree that if you're going to do gods, Eberron style is your best bet.

Yeah, Eberron as a setting has a lot of problems, but how they did religion is probably the best idea for D&D clerics that has yet been published.

Of course, IMO anything is better than the FR method, which seem to be developed to fill that void of stuff to cockwhip your PCs with when Elminster's penis isn't big enough.

[ludomastro]

Gods don't exist in the "real world", and yet we have religion. Religion is ultimately born from a confluence of wishful thinking, an ignorance of how the natural world works, and our tendency as a species to organize ourselves in a hierarchical fashion. Forget D&D - religion is the original Magical Tea Party.

Dude ... just ... no.

You are entitled to your opinion but to throw it in the face of those who believe is not merely rude but runs right up to (if not over) the fence on ToS grounds.

Seriously, a simple "In my opinion" or "As far as I'm concerned" would have been fine.

[Kaelik]

Dude ... just ... no.

You are entitled to your opinion but to throw it in the face of those who believe is not merely rude but runs right up to (if not over) the fence on ToS grounds.

Seriously, a simple "In my opinion" or "As far as I'm concerned" would have been fine.

Have you read the Terms of Service? Have you read this forum? Surprise. No one cares about Rudeness. We actually would prefer that the phrase "As far as I'm concerned" and "In my opinion" be censored out.

Bluntly stating the truth is what we like here. If you don't like the truth, it is up to you to demonstrate through argumentation that it is not true. Until then, tough luck.

[TavishArtair]

Unfortunately for you, it is also against forum rules to go on about hot-button issues like religion in an antagonizing manner, unless you want the topic locked. And if you do want the topic locked, then please recuse yourself from the thread. Also, take it to MPSIMS.

Needless to say, no one has successfully proved the absence of deity either. Your best bet is to say "most probably there is no god," and then shrug helplessly, because that's the closest you'll ever come, unless we prove the universe is finite. And then, even then, we may be mistaken, given our limited perceptual faculties. And that, Sir, is why it's rude to insult theists. Because the best you can get is the metaphysical equivalent of a "yo momma" joke.