Anatomy of a Failed Design: Role Protection.

[Orion]

There defnitely *are* codified social systems. I have actually *played* Exalted. With a group and everything. It is a real game that actually exists.

[TarkisFlux]

So basically what I'm hearing is that the two systems people use are:

• Magic Tea party straight up (roleplay only)
• Magic Tea party with dice (DM sets DC)

So we can pretty much agree that there is basically no codified system similar to combat. Whether the DM is setting DCs or generating an arbitrary result based on number of net hits on a SR success test, it really doesn't matter. The system is basically magic tea party either way.

So I really don't know what people are getting all bent out of shape about on me. This is just a play style preference of character skill versus player skill and that's it, because we're both using basically no true social system beyond DM fiat. It's just system is DM fiat with randomness and social skill bonuses added and mine is DM fiat period.

So pretty much as I expected, we're all using magic teaparty.

Yeah, that time a page or 2 back where I gave you a link to an actual complete and integrated system that did all of the things that you seemed to want... did I just imagine that? Maybe it didn't happen after all...

Oh, wait. Yes it did. Right here even.

[Fuchs]

I did mention that opposed rolls are very common in the system I use - so it's not MTP.

[MartinHarper]

I did mention that opposed rolls are very common in the system I use - so it's not MTP.

No, it's Magic Tea Party with dice. This is like Magic Tea Party, except from time to time Mrs. Bunny flips a coin to see whether she convinces Mr. Fluffalump to have another cup of tea.

Magic Dice Party has benefits in that you can say "my character is charming" or "my character is an uncouth lout" and have it cost something and mean something, so you have meaningful choice at character creation. In game, though, instead of trying to con my DM into having the salesman give me a discount based on my feeble argument about the recession, I'm trying to con my DM into having the salesman give me a discount based on both my feeble Diplomacy roll of 15 and my feeble argument about the recession. That's the same thing, only it more frequently becomes mechanically optimal to shut up and let the bard talk.

[Fuchs]

If I have a "Roll Diplomacy vs. the King's diplomacy, -2 for his racism, +2 for the bard's tale from your deed" DC, it's MTP?

By that logic combat would be MTP as well, because the DM gets to pick the enemies, and can modify their AC.

[RandomCasualty2]

Yeah, that time a page or 2 back where I gave you a link to an actual complete and integrated system that did all of the things that you seemed to want... did I just imagine that? Maybe it didn't happen after all...

Oh, wait. Yes it did. Right here even.

Ah ok. I actually did miss that.

Do you actually use that system to replace the D&D social system?

[RandomCasualty2]

Magic Dice Party has benefits in that you can say "my character is charming" or "my character is an uncouth lout" and have it cost something and mean something, so you have meaningful choice at character creation. In game, though, instead of trying to con my DM into having the salesman give me a discount based on my feeble argument about the recession, I'm trying to con my DM into having the salesman give me a discount based on both my feeble Diplomacy roll of 15 and my feeble argument about the recession. That's the same thing, only it more frequently becomes mechanically optimal to shut up and let the bard talk.

Yeah, exactly.

One of the pros of Magic Dice Party is that you allow room to have social skills in your game, but the drawback of that is that it becomes mechanically optimal to let the people with those skills do all the talking, which is actually one reason that I dislike social skills.

Like combat, I pretty much want social scenarios to be a minigame that everyone can take part in, and having some social characters and some nonsocial characters really kills that.

[Username17]

Like combat, I pretty much want social scenarios to be a minigame that everyone can take part in, and having some social characters and some nonsocial characters really kills that.

OK. But I just want to point out that this is anathema to the goal of having socialness be a minor and compartmentalized part of the game you zip through. So for example, in Shadowrun, socialization is a form of legwork, and it's supposed to get done in roughly the same amount of time as an astral scouting raid or a series of data searches. Carolyn will go check the building's old plans, Bob knows a guy and he'll see if he can get some info on guard rotations. Those two events are supposed to take the same amount of time, so socializing is by design intent supposed to be doable by a single character and in relatively few rolls of the dice.

Having socialization be something that everyone participates in is also a possibility. But it's a different one predicated on the idea that diplomatic missions will take a substantial part of the evening - something that makes some people happy and others not so much.

But certainly having a system that actually did all the wild stuff about giving players options and having everyone participate that the 4e designers said that Skill Challenges would do is something that a fair number of people want from a social system. But other people really do just want Handsome McPrettyface to get it the fuck over with so that they can go back to hacking alarm systems and shooting enemies in the face for money.

It's a defensible, and achievable, though not universally held, design goal.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

OK. But I just want to point out that this is anathema to the goal of having socialness be a minor and compartmentalized part of the game you zip through. So for example, in Shadowrun, socialization is a form of legwork, and it's supposed to get done in roughly the same amount of time as an astral scouting raid or a series of data searches. Carolyn will go check the building's old plans, Bob knows a guy and he'll see if he can get some info on guard rotations. Those two events are supposed to take the same amount of time, so socializing is by design intent supposed to be doable by a single character and in relatively few rolls of the dice.

Well, sometimes you actually do want quick socialization as well if it happens off screen. But if you're negotiating with the king or standing on trial for your life trying to mount a defense, then that kind of socialization is also supposed to be drawn out and should involve everyone.

So I can see if people want a quick and dirty social system to handle offcamera information gathering and stuff, but I just don't want that system to end up preventing any true social encounters.

[TarkisFlux]

Ah ok. I actually did miss that.

Do you actually use that system to replace the D&D social system?

That setup works nicely in its home system and covers all of the bases you seem to care about. I currently intend to replace portions of the DnD social system with it eventually, but it needs more playtesting and critiquing first.

[RandomCasualty2]

That setup works nicely in its home system and covers all of the bases you seem to care about. I currently intend to replace portions of the DnD social system with it eventually, but it needs more playtesting and critiquing first.

Yeah, I mean I've never even heard of the system it comes from. Mainly I'm wondering what kinds of systems people use for D&D and the other RPGs they play.

I mean we know the D&D diplomacy system sucks (I don't think anyone is defending it). I'm wondering what people do for a substitute besides MTP or MDP.

Thus far most people seem to be saying MDP is their preferred method. And I've done that sometimes. I use the Shadowrun social system when I play that for some things, and that's basically an MDP system, since the GM decides what 3 net hits on a social test actually means.

For 3E, I basically run almost straight MTP. The only rolls I sometimes do is sense motive versus bluff, but that's not to see if the guy believes the bluff, but rather for the other side to detect that he's lying. If the bluff check wins, then the other side just isn't sure, but isn't automatically convinced. So in that regard it works the same for PCs and NPCs.

[Fuchs]

We play out scenes, then roll skills to see if the characters succeed.

[Anguirus]

We play out scenes, then roll skills to see if the characters succeed.

I like doing just the opposite. Roll skills to see if you succeed and to what degree and then RP that in way that would make that outcome make sense.

[Fuchs]

Well, we roleplay the outcome then too, and some explanations, if the result is especially bad or good.

[Psychic Robot]

There defnitely *are* codified social systems. I have actually *played* Exalted. With a group and everything. It is a real game that actually exists.

Not to sidetrack, but how is it? From what I can tell of the system, it looks to be something of a mess. I haven't looked at it in detail, but it would be a shame if it were FUBAR--the idea seems really cool, and I actually find the Annie May aspects palatable.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Exalted social systems are a fucking mess, but no more than the rest of the system. It has some elements intentionally encoded into it to enforce genre conventions, like the whole Solar flipping out thing, and you get a roleplay bonus for conducting an author filibuster.

It does have some safeguards built into it though to prevent things like a diplomancer convincing a peasant to kill his family or some merchant on the street cheating a PC out of life's savings. Exalted also doesn't completely follow the 'I decide how my PCs feel at all time except for magic'. While most characters don't have the mojo to influence your opinion nonmagically a couple of plot-important characters do. Again, there are safeguards against these characters rewriting your personality or motivations.

But like I said, the actual game mechanics are crummy. Like everything in that system, it's thought out really thoroughly except for the statistics part.

[Draco_Argentum]

Well the other issue with Exalted is that you use willpower to be a badass in combat and to resist social mechanics. Thats bad if you talk to some dude then fight some other dude. Its downright shit if you want the players to talk to some dude then fight them since its completely to the weaker social side's advantage to start the violence ASAP.

[Orion]

Draco, that's a feature not a bug. It gives hack-and-slash oriented players an incentive to care about social skills and social scenes, and it means you can accomplished something by having words with an opponent even if you're ultimately unable to win him over.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Draco, that's a feature not a bug. It gives hack-and-slash oriented players an incentive to care about social skills and social scenes, and it means you can accomplished something by having words with an opponent even if you're ultimately unable to win him over.

No, it's definitely a bug. It wouldn't be if most players were allowed to get a competent skill social attacks/defenses, but Exalted hands out waaaaay too few character building points in order for people who are not primed for it to actually participate in the social minigame.

[Username17]

Draco, that's a feature not a bug. It gives hack-and-slash oriented players an incentive to care about social skills and social scenes, and it means you can accomplished something by having words with an opponent even if you're ultimately unable to win him over.

No, it's definitely a bug. It wouldn't be if most players were allowed to get a competent skill social attacks/defenses, but Exalted hands out waaaaay too few character building points in order for people who are not primed for it to actually participate in the social minigame.

I'm going to go with feature, because the social characters can't afford to be meaningful in combat, so allowing their opening monologue to burn through enemy Willpower is the only way they can impact the final combat.

Exalted is a bad system, but this is a good component.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Which just goes to show you what piss-awful mechanics Exalted has. They have a system that doesn't meaningfully interact with another system and players aren't allowed to be good at both unless they have some broken Sidereal charm array like Unbroken Fight Quest of Cow Humping. The only overlap is because one system saps a tumorous stat that is really important to the other system and the people who specialize in the combat system really have no way to defend against it other than one-shotting the social which they WILL DO, because you get ass-raped if you don't have perfect defenses you can't afford.

And like Frank said, this is a good thing because the alternative would be telling the social players to go play Smash Bros. and rolling a percentile die for whether or not they got killed or not.


Okay, quick reminder on how to win Exalted combat. First of all, pick a Solar, and grab as many essence-enhancing bullshit things as you can. Secondly, invest in a good melee attack. You don't even need to put a lot into it, just a decent amount. Next, invest in the cheapest perfect defence you can find, which will be in the Melee tree. While you're doing this you want to get your defenses good enough so that people will need to use a charm to hurt you. You might need to invest in a way to move in the air, too. Then, invest in the cheapest perfect anti-status effect you can find. I forgot what tree that's in, it's in the one where you get to bend reality.

That's all you need to do. When actual combat starts, just run up to the enemy and start wailing on them. If the person is ANYTHING but a Solar Exalt, then they'll be forced to throw up defenses. Don't worry that your attack doesn't get through, just keep wailing on them. When they come to attack you, just throw up your perfect defense.

Non-Solar defensive charms (especially perfect defenses) not only cost more essence but they also get less essence to begin with. Unless they run and hope you don't catch them, they'll eventually run out of essence trying to break through your shields or standing up to your attack and then you curbstomp them.

If they're a Solar, you're probably going to win since most Solars invest in stupid shit like sailing boats. If you're going up against another Melee Monkey, though, you might be fucked depending on what defenses they decided to neglect in order to grab more essence/power.

Also, if you're facing someone who has an investment in that stupid Mirror Shard school or that one school that bypasses perfect defenses despite the game stating that you can't bypass a perfect defense under any circumstance, you're fucked. But then, so is everyone else. Since the GM actually allowed those broken styles into the game next go round buy some charms for the Quicksilver Hands of Dreams, which has the important bonus of hooking you up with a Sidereal willing to teach you SMA. Then invest in the Mirror Fucking school and win the game.

I'm dead fucking serious about winning the game. Their highest form charm is literally 'the DM presents you 2 to 5 ways to win the game'.

[Kaelik]

I thought the way to win was to be a Spider Lunar, since Lunars get better essence regen in combat, better essence regen out of combat, better essence at low XP and only a little less the Solars at high, and an action long perfect dodge instead of one attack (because dodge is the best), and eight attacks per action, and a way to make that eight perfect attacks for relatively little essence.

[Draco_Argentum]

I'm going to go with feature, because the social characters can't afford to be meaningful in combat, so allowing their opening monologue to burn through enemy Willpower is the only way they can impact the final combat.

I'm still going with bug. The setting fluff goes on about the talking to things. The willpower mechanic encourages killing shit before it can sap your willpower. The bit where you are either social or combat is also a bug. Two bugs don't make an awesome.

[Parthenon]

For some reason, while I am interested in Exalted, I'd like to get back to Role Protection.

4e has explicit role protection within combat, but does it have any implicit role protection outside of combat? Sort of like, one person is good at traps, one is good at scouting, another conversation, another dealing with obstacles...

If so, that fails too because with MTP everyone has the same chance of affecting the encounter with the same actions as anyone else.

In fact if, as RC states, everyone really does use a variant of MTP in 3e, then the implicit roles made by skill ranks also fail because they can often ignore the ranks. Apart from diplomancers of course.

Thats only really an issue if people care about roles though. I know I'm far off the mark on some of these points but a sudden apathy forces me to not care and just post now that I've written it.

[Amra]

I guess it's a variant on Magical Dice Party that my group generally uses. In some instances, there's no need for dice; your cowardly merchant may well be flat-out convinced that the Barbarian will cut his nuts off if he doesn't agree to a discount. In other cases there's no need for dice because the players have come up with a perfectly sound basis for their argument and everybody wins.

The novice DM who has just taken over the regular weekly session ran us through the daffy Lost Forge adventure from the Eberron book, and my character managed to triple the final reward for retrieving the MacGuffin... sorry, fragment of schema, for Lady Whatever. Without rolling dice. Thing was, we had her absolutely over a barrel; it would have been batshit-crazy to not just pay up.

In yet other circumstances we play the scene and roll the dice with the two complementing each other. A Diplomancer might be able to convince someone into a course of action even though their argument is total bullshit, whilst a character who is patently a social misfit might turn someone off even though what they're suggesting is perfectly reasonable.

That happens every day in real life, so whatever, but yes: the DM is still setting the DC's or using opposed rolls with bonuses or penalties according to the NPC's agenda or susceptibility, so in that respect it's still Mrs. Bunny and Mr. Fluffalump.