Learning how to play a caster

[Amra]

Nice reference SunTzu: thanks for that!

[virgil]

As it turns out, the player decided to go for beguiler. He's apparently moved the goalpost of the character choice to be "knowing how/when to use spells", which the beguiler provides (better than the sorcerer, since the list is preselected and doesn't inherently svck). We're one session in (level 4) and he seems to be using it well enough.

And now I have another player who's making me think. I'm still kind of fresh with Tome-level thoughts, so I was hoping for insight for this...

X-37: Wanted to be a sahuagin, which I figured would be a simple ECL choice (2HD, CR 2, works out). I let him choose the Extra Arms feat a single time to represent the sahuagin mutant feature. He then had his background be that he died and rose as a ghoul so he could take the Ghoul racial package and lose the water vulnerability (both freshwater and the drowning feature), and wears sundark goggles to handle the light-blindness (non-magical item from Races of the Dragon).

X37, Sahuagin 2/Monk 1/Ghoul 1
Undead (Darkminded, Unliving, Augmented Monstrous Humanoid)
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 14
HP: 41
AC 22 (+2 armor, +6 natural, +4 Wisdom)
Saves: +6/+9/+8
Full-attack: 4 claws +10 (1d4+3), Slam +8 (1d8+3), & bite +8 (1d4+3)
* Each attack deals piercing damage, has ghoul paralysis (Fort DC 14, 1d4+1 rounds), deals 1 negative level, and 2 Con damage
Feats: Multiattack (B), Extra Arms, Enervating Touch
Fighting Style: Fist of the Ghoul - All attacks count as slam attacks, and all slam attacks deal piercing damage and 2 Con damage
Equipment: Sundark Goggles, Belt of Strength, Choker of Hope & Fear (homebrew item, allows the wearer to experience emotions, which allows X-37 to be influenced by morale & fear effects)

I would really appreciate any advice or opinions on what I've allowed from this; especially because he's going to start asking for even more corner-cases (like advice on how to get pounce, rend, reach, the half-farspawn template specifically for its boost to armor/stats/number of natural attacks/magic DR and thus penetration).

[ubernoob]

4 negative levels and 8 con damage a round is kinda overkill at level 4, isn't it?

[RandomCasualty2]

4 negative levels and 8 con damage a round is kinda overkill at level 4, isn't it?

Yeah, I'd say so. Imagine that as a CR 4 opponent against a party. That's a TPK in a can.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Extra Arms has a level 6 prereq, if I recall correctly. Also, if I recall correctly, this is for a damned good reason (the same level a fighter will be getting iterative attacks).

You get (natural attacks) OR (weapon attacks AND (slam attack OR secondary natural)). Not both.

Currently, this is 4 claws and bite. The slam is overridden. Alternatively, with Multiattack, I think you could do 4 weapons and (slam or bite).

Too good for level 4.

[virgil]

What about the thri-kreen?

[Amra]

Firstly, SunTzu is right and the slam attack is overriden; you don't get it in addition to the "claw" natural weapon attacks (which are modified to being slam attacks by Fist of the Ghoul but still don't stack).

Seoncdly, SunTzu is right again and you've got to have 6 levels for each iteration of the feat you take.

Thirdly:

A feat with the [Fiend] tag can only be taken by a creature who is a Fiend. For this purpose, any creature from any lower plane is a Fiend regardless of its alignment. Further, any elemental or outsider with an Evil alignment is a Fiend regardless of its plane of origin.

Neither Sahuagin nor Ghouls are from lower planes, nor are they elementals or outsiders... how does the character have access to this feat? Is it the case that you've allowed it as a sahuagin mutation despite the character not otherwise meeting the prerequisites? And where is the bonus feat coming from?

I don't know what the rest of the party makeup is, but it looks more than a little as though you may have been somewhat too accomodating of your player's requests!

EDIT: What about thri-kreen? Sure, they get extra limbs but they're not doing paralysis, Con damage and negative levels with every blow. Even their poisoned bite attack is only 1/day and looks distinctly weaksauce beyond the first couple of levels. That's not to say that they can't be made into complete cheesemeisters, because they can, but you'd be hard-pressed to come up with something for them at 4th level that looked as tough as what you/your player have put together.

[virgil]

The motivation behind the Extra Arms feat was because of the sahuagin mutant, which is an established monster. As for the thri-kreen, why are they being off-handedly dismissed? From what I can tell, they would be nearly identical to the sahuagin mutant in terms of unarmed pain. The sahuagin has Multiattack as a racial bonus feat, but I was requiring a feat to get another pair of arms; while the thri-kreen starts with extra arms for free, so a feat would have to be spent to get Multiattack.

Both are 2HD creatures (thus treated as two levels in said monster), and I know the LA would/should be ignored for at minimum the thri-kreen.

The paralysis, Con damage, & negative levels are all from being a ghoul with one level in monk. Hell, any race that has just two claw attacks would be pretty close since the ghoul template gives them a free bite attack (thus three attacks per round doing this).

EDIT: The way the class is worded, I'm slightly confused, because it sounds like it's an additional attack...

A Monk has a natural weapon Slam in addition to whatever else he is capable of doing. As a natural slam attack, if he uses no other natural or manufactured weapons he adds his Strength and a half to damage and may make iterative attacks if he has sufficient BAB. If the slam is used with other weaponry, it becomes a secondary natural attack...

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, you can claw/claw/claw/claw/kick.

The Saughin aspect should be CL 3 (from CR 2). Assume that it has the non-elite stat array; it's attribute adjustments should be Dex+2, Con+2, Int+2, Wis+2. If it's elite (as per Tomes), then just Con+2. It has a medium (+2) BAB. Nothing about becoming a ghoul (probably a lacedon) specifically obliviates the weakness to certain water types, although they won't 'drown' in air if they don't need to breath. That gets you Dex+2.

So the final character is level 5, and should have significantly lower attributes. They'll still be a blender (5 attacks + negative levels + con damage + low DC paralysis is monstrous), but not quite as crazy.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Being a blender at level 6 is perfectly fine. This is the level where fighters can TWF with iterative BAB.

Scoring 5 attacks at level 4 is a bit crazy. The only sure-fire way I can think of, non Tome, off the top of my head to do this is:

TWF+Rapid Shot+Bite attack+Boot Blade.

I would give him the arms as flavor (and carrying and manipulation, and everything otehr than attacks), and then make him take the feat at level 6, and give them some function.

You can cheese out a thri-kreen, but this is beyond what you can do with it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Actually, a thrikreen ghoul monk would probably be at least as deadly.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, except that Thri Keen have LA and Racial HD, so yeah, they are just as deadly at level 7.

The point is that if you are seriously giving 2 or more extra attacks for zero LA and 2 Racial HD, you are wrong.

The Fighter class sucks non-Tome, but sometimes people take it for two levels.

Would you dip two levels in a base class that gives +2 to 5 stats and grants an extra attack at each level? Of course.

Giving someone 5 attacks at level 2 is dumb, because then they can do things like add Monk and Ghoul.

[virgil]

Someone's actually arguing for the +2 LA of a thri-kreen in the XPH (which would still be a level 6 build, not 7; 5 if we use Savage Species to opt out of its psionic powers)?

Now, I will mention to the player the mistake with the Tome conversion; which looks like it would make the stat mods +2 Dex & +2 Con or Wis (with ECL 3 for sahuagin ghoul). So he'd have to either drop the paralysis ability or the 2 Con damage (lose ghoul or monk level) to stay at level 4.

If I were him...
Sahuagin Ghoul, Monk 1
Abilities: 18, 8, 14, 12, 16, 14 (he has a Strength item)
AC 21 (+6 natural, +2 armor, +3 Wisdom)
Saves +6/+4/+8
Full Attack: 4 claws +7 (1d4+4), bite +5 (1d4+2), slam +5 (1d8+2)
* 2 Con, negative level

EDIT: Forgot about the fact he was wanting to take the Experimental Stock background, opting for a natural weapon in exchange for a penalty to initiative. It's been more than a few days, so I'm half thinking that might have helped my acquiescence towards the Extra Arms feat.

Not to say I disagree with the overall assessment of what I initially showed you guys, but what about the above mini-setup with the reduced ability scores and loss of a ghoul level (probably better than losing a monk level)?

Also, does the [Unliving] tag remove the undead's immunity to fatigue and exhaustion because of the bestowed Constitution score? Heck, does it remove all of the immunities associated with non-Constitution?

Constitution
A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yeah, except that Thri Keen have LA and Racial HD, so yeah, they are just as deadly at level 7.

The thri-kreen is CR 1, so with the Tome method that should have been used for the saughin (see my post above), it could come out to character level 2. They'd probably be about as deadly at level 4.

If you're going to compare two characters created by different rule systems, I don't want to hear it unless you're comparing the systems.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, except that Thri Keen have LA and Racial HD, so yeah, they are just as deadly at level 7.

The thri-kreen is CR 1, so with the Tome method that should have been used for the saughin (see my post above), it could come out to character level 2. They'd probably be about as deadly at level 4.

If you're going to compare two characters created by different rule systems, I don't want to hear it unless you're comparing the systems.

The 'Tome system' is not universal. It is supposed to be judged based on the actual abilities.

I don't care if you find a CR one creature with no stat mods 2HD and 7 attacks a round. That combined with Monk and Ghoul is yes, fucking too powerful.

Seriously, are you smoking crack? By your logic Kobolds are level .5 and so if you play a Kobold you can be a level 2 Wizard at ECL 1.

Yes, various CR 1 creatures exist and make no sense as ECL 2 creatures. welcome to the MM.

If you have a TWFing Fighter with Demonic whatever he still only gets 3 attacks at level 1, not 7. So no, you can't have an ECL 2 creature with 7 attacks and 2HD and some stat mods.

[ubernoob]

Six natural attacks that deal shit for damage at level 4 is actually ok. He'd end up doing more things like trip and disarm (because the damage isn't as important).

Adding negative levels and con damage on top of each of those attacks is kinda overkill. Frankly, Enervating Touch doesn't belong in the same game as Tome rules. Under normal rules, undead characters are very hard pressed not to have LA and will have trouble getting more than three natural attacks a round at any level.

Under tome rules, you can get the undead type at level 1, a bite attack for a single level, and an extra natural attack for a trait.

Here's what you need to do:
A) Enforce the level six prereq for extra arms.
B) Don't let Enervating Touch shenanigans in the game.

You do both of those things and it ends up being something like this:

2 Monster HD/ Monk 1/ Ghoul 1
2 base natural attacks, 1 bite, 1 slam. All of them do 2 con damage on top of some other shit damage.
He gets some less stat boosts than you initially had per Tome conversion.

You end up with a PC that has a decent AC, on the RNG attack bonus with four attacks that each deal 1 con damage but shit regular damage.

Compare with say, a level 4 halfling halfling hurler...
Hurler has less AC
Hurler has better relative to hit (touch AC)
Hurler does basically the same damage (15 damage per hit compared with about seven per hit, so even damage against enemies with 8 HD, so slight edge to the hurler)
Hurler has better skills
Hurler isn't immune to some stuff
Same number of attacks.

Essentially, you'd have a slightly more narrow halfling hurler with better defenses.

But yeah. Don't mix Enervating Touch with Tome rules and enforce the level prereq on extra arms and you should be fine.

[virgil]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

[ubernoob]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

Could have sworn ennervating touch was from libris mortis. The one from the tome allows a cha based save to resist if I'm reading it right, so is no big deal.

[virgil]

I thought that the save is in reference to the one you make the next day to remove the negative level, like every other one in the game.

If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

[Kaelik]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

Well since some crazy people think that applying the ECL=CR+1 to anything in any book counts as Tome, Thrikeen Monk Ghoul with expiremental stock has either 7 natural attacks at level 4 or 9 attacks. Can't remember how many arms Thri-keen have. Also the Con damage and negative levels.

[Roy]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

Well since some crazy people think that applying the ECL=CR+1 to anything in any book counts as Tome, Thrikeen Monk Ghoul with expiremental stock has either 7 natural attacks at level 4 or 9 attacks. Can't remember how many arms Thri-keen have. Also the Con damage and negative levels.

4 normally. I dunno what all that does though, so eh.

[ubernoob]

I thought that the save is in reference to the one you make the next day to remove the negative level, like every other one in the game.

If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

I bet that's what it is referring to.

In any case, 2 con per hit with shit actual damage is pretty fine with 4 attacks or so at level 4. Stacking on negative levels to each attack and breaking four attacks is kinda overkill though. Maybe just not have the player take the enervating touch feat and don't give him more than two claws+bite+tentacle?

[Kaelik]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

Well since some crazy people think that applying the ECL=CR+1 to anything in any book counts as Tome, Thrikeen Monk Ghoul with expiremental stock has either 7 natural attacks at level 4 or 9 attacks. Can't remember how many arms Thri-keen have. Also the Con damage and negative levels.

4 normally. I dunno what all that does though, so eh.

Experimental stock gives a tentacle, Ghoul gives a bite, Monk gives a slam, added to 4 claws= seven attacks.

That would be at ECL 4 if you used the Tome ECL=CR+1 system without ever actually thinking about what you were dealing with.

Of course, the way to progress this character is Fiendish Brute, get Harmless Form, use that to get into Warshaper and then deal arbitrary numbers of negative levels (obviously you should be limited to only X tentacles, but still, X is always going to be a couple more, and you can go back into Brute for Extra Arms over and over so that you are always 7+ attacks ahead of a monk with TWFing who doesn't get negative levels.)

[virgil]

And now he contemplates dropping half of it and going...

Paizo Half-Orc (+2 Str/Wis, -2 Int) Ghoul Fiendish Brute 3/Monk 1
21, 8, 16, 10, 18, 10
Feat: Enervating Touch, Combat School, Multiattack
AC 20 (+4 natural, +2 armor, +4 Wis)
Saves +7/+8/+7
2 claws +9 (1d4+7), bite +7 (1d6+4), slam +7 (1d8+4)
* Negative level, 2 Con

[CatharzGodfoot]

Wait, not mixing Tome rules with itself?

As for sheer volume of attacks, going pure Tome, the lowest level I can think of would be 2 by being a Tiefling Ghoul Monk 1/Fiendish Brute 1 (4 natural attacks); maybe 5 if we throw in a tentacle attack from the Experimental Stock background trait.

Well since some crazy people think that applying the ECL=CR+1 to anything in any book counts as Tome, Thrikeen Monk Ghoul with expiremental stock has either 7 natural attacks at level 4 or 9 attacks. Can't remember how many arms Thri-keen have. Also the Con damage and negative levels.

4 normally. I dunno what all that does though, so eh.

They have a bite too.