[Pathfinder] Just to kick a man when he's down.

[Psychic Robot]

I hardly think it to be at all fair or sane to compare a multi-classed, multi-book conglomeration to a single book character.

You're right. However, he started with a Strength of 12, and he lacks a cloak of resistance (or a cloak of displacement, which is like AC, but with more cake). Furthermore, the fighter has chosen his feats pathetically--why on Earth would he blow feats on the Weapon Focus line? That was the sort of feat chain that was cute when we were younger and stupid, but to take it as a game designer is reprehensible, and it demonstrates how incompetent the Pathfinder team are overall.

Devastating Blow is fuckyeah awesome. All Pathfinder fighters should be wielding scythes and taking that feat chain. I repeatedly tried to explain why making the feat usable for those specializing in two-handed weapons and why making it a crit (rather than multiplying damage) was a poor choice, but to no avail. My friend plans on buying the book upon its release, but I hope to convince him of doing otherwise.

This is very much NOT any kind of endorsement for the quality of Jason's fighter; as choosing a better selection of magic items (sticking to core, of course) will multiply his character's potential.

"Jason's fighter" is a piece of shit. Adding numbers does not make the fighter work. It makes him better, but it does not improve him in such a way that makes the fighter not a turd. Many people have offered alternative suggestions, and multiple posters have pointed to Races of War as good source material for the fighter fix.

Jason and Co. have ignored all of them in favor of the circle-jerks of people like Aubrey the Failformed.

[Leress]

Here is one I did real quick so it's not really optimized.

Fighter X
Male human fighter 14
NG Medium humanoid
Init +6; Senses Perception xx
DEFENSE
AC 33, touch 15, flat-footed 31; (+26 armor, +3 deflection, +2 Dex, +2 Natural Armor)
hp 92
Fort +16, Ref +13, Will +11 (+15 against fear)

OFFENSE
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +3 greatsword +24/+19/+14 (2d6+13/17–20)
Ranged +3 composite(+3) longbow +24/+19/+14 (1d8+10 19-20x3)
STATISTICS
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +14; CMB +xx; CMD xx
Feats: Power Attack, Overhead Chop, Vital Strike, Improved Critical (Heavy Blade and Bow), Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Lighting Reflexes, Backswing, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Point Blank Shot, Precise shot, Rapid Shot

Skills : xx
Languages Common, Halfling
SQ armor training +3, bravery +4, weapon training (heavy blades +2, bow +3, polearms +1)

Gear: +3 Full plate (light fortification), +3 Ring of Protection, Cloak of Resistance +5, Bracer of Archery Greater, Amulet of Natural Armor, Gauntlets of Orge Power, 5,350 for other shit.
----------------------------------------
Pretty much just using vital strike to burn the the shitty attack for more damage. Since it applies to both ranged and melee I use the Improved version with Rapid Shot.

----------------------------------------

Also after reading the character traits pdf (they are optional)
I could take Dangerously Curious to get UMD as a class skill (as well as a +1 bonus) and some other one (Reactionary or one of the +1 Save boosters)

All of the Character traits are power boost of course some are better than others. (+1 to a save is better than +1 to damage when you flank) These were once known as "half-feats" but that doesn't change how unbalanced they are amongst themselves.


*Will calculate damage later

[CatharzGodfoot]

But they want to be able to illustrate their iconic fighter TWFing. Of course, really supporting that in the mechanics would be going too far...

[Josh_Kablack]

This devastating attack is made at a +23 bonus and it deals 3d8+21. Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor.

And as an off-the top of my head trivial comparison a level 14 Transmuter can be packing 7 (or more) Disintegrates which are a +10 ranged touch attack that can hit targets 240' feet away, and deals 28d6 unless a DC 28 fortitude save is made, in which case it still deals 5d6.

(Assuming Int of 22, Greater Spell Focus, Dex of 14)

[Caedrus]

This devastating attack is made at a +23 bonus and it deals 3d8+21. Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor.

And as an off-the top of my head trivial comparison a level 14 Transmuter can be packing 7 (or more) Disintegrates which are a +10 ranged touch attack that can hit targets 240' feet away, and deals 28d6 unless a DC 28 fortitude save is made, in which case it still deals 5d6.

(Assuming Int of 22, Greater Spell Focus, Dex of 14)

And then you pull out your metamagic rods, put on your stat-booster items, buffs, and so forth.

And Disintegrate isn't even a particularly good spell!

[FatR]

While I understand, that signature characters shouldn't be seriously optimized, this one is really a huge pile of fail. Even CR 12 monsters overpower and outmaneuver him easily. And Will +3... having Will this small at level 14 isn't a roleplaying choice, it is being unplayable.

[Kaelik]

Of the nine SRD monsters of CR 14 we have:

Will save DC 22 or death.
Will save DC 18 or death, after the DC 21 aura of -2 on amongst other things, saves.
Four Dragons (Sure they could cast Confusion, but they'd never think to because the idea of someone not making the save on a 2 is weird.)
DC 20 Will save or be stupid, also DC 18 or be slowed.
Then comes a Werewolf.
And finally, a DC 18 confusion, 19 hold monster, and 21 go die.


Of the 9, one of them forces no will saves, of the other eight, the lowest DC (and this is a dragon casting without any equipment) is DC 15, greater then 50% chance of completely negating the fighter. (IE Slow and or Confusion).

Also, as a joke, the Fighter can't penetrate the DR on 5 of the nine creatures. Like, literally no damage taking average.

[Username17]

But they want to be able to illustrate their iconic fighter TWFing. Of course, really supporting that in the mechanics would be going too far...

Isn't their iconic TWFing rules simply that they disabled the option of using sneak attack with it and now it sucks for every character instead of "every character who isn't a pounce rogue?"

I don't understand the logic behind taking an option that was woefully underpowered except for one iconic character type and then leaving it essentially as-is but nerfing it for that one character.

-Username17

[sake]

Just once I'd like to see a version of D&D where Two Weapon Defense is actually the intro feat (or even *gasp* a baseline ability) to the TWF chain instead of the other way around.

[virgil]

I never heard of them removing the option of sneak attack with TWF, but I'll look around their site a bit for that. I do know they intend for sneak attack to work against corporeal undead and constructs now.

One thing I did find out is that they're undoing that stupid ruling with Quicken Spell and sorcerers back to where it works again. And dispel magic is seeing a major change; no level cap on the check, only dispels the most powerful active spell, and greater dispel removes one spell per four caster levels (starting from highest level).

[virgil]

I should note that the star blocks in these previews are built to show off specific themes and new rules bits, not to create a super optimized character. That, and I think that a fun weakness can really help to define a character. For Valeros, having a poor Will save sort of fits.

[Caedrus]

I should note that the star blocks in these previews are built to show off specific themes and new rules bits, not to create a super optimized character. That, and I think that a fun weakness can really help to define a character. For Valeros, having a poor Will save sort of fits.

There is a fucking difference between "super-optimized" and "viable" and "waste of space," Jason. You want that spot in-between, not "laughably useless with descriptions that insult our intelligence, like "this devastating attack" or "goodies hidden for the math savvy.""

[Roy]

I hardly think it to be at all fair or sane to compare a multi-classed, multi-book conglomeration to a single book character. This is literally their rendition of a core, PHB-only, sample fighter, and you're pulling out several splatbooks as well as intra-party circle jerks. And I'm also not terribly certain how those are level 1 stats, because there's no way in hell that I could make a level 1 character with physical stats of 16/20/16 and still conceive of having mental stats of higher than 8.

This is very much NOT any kind of endorsement for the quality of Jason's fighter; as choosing a better selection of magic items (sticking to core, of course) will multiply his character's potential.

Did you read the post? It doesn't fucking matter because even after accounting for the stat drop it still comes out far better.

It's level 1 stats because he has /16 Strength/. Except that 4 of that is from an item so he actually is far worse. Imagine a level 14 anything with a 16 or a 12 in its primary stat. It doesn't fucking matter how many classes you have at this point, you are made of Fail.

A level 1 could easily get 12 Str and 16 Con... not that they'd want to, but since all the dex does is let him gimp himself further with fucking TWF this build is functionally identical stat wise.

This devastating attack is made at a +23 bonus and it deals 3d8+21. Note that Valeros can move 30 feet during this charge, despite wearing a breastplate. This is due to his armor training, which allows him to move at full speed while wearing such armor.

And as an off-the top of my head trivial comparison a level 14 Transmuter can be packing 7 (or more) Disintegrates which are a +10 ranged touch attack that can hit targets 240' feet away, and deals 28d6 unless a DC 28 fortitude save is made, in which case it still deals 5d6.

(Assuming Int of 22, Greater Spell Focus, Dex of 14)

Wait a sec. Aren't charges supposed to be double moves? Which means this fucker went from a 40 foot charge to 30 feet. Congratufuckinglations.

This is on top of the damage fail. Seriously. This fucker could roll max damage and barely tickle anything at the level. 45. Lulz. Note average level FIVE enemies have about 125% as much health... thus it cannot OHKO something NINE levels lower.

I never heard of them removing the option of sneak attack with TWF, but I'll look around their site a bit for that. I do know they intend for sneak attack to work against corporeal undead and constructs now.

One thing I did find out is that they're undoing that stupid ruling with Quicken Spell and sorcerers back to where it works again. And dispel magic is seeing a major change; no level cap on the check, only dispels the most powerful active spell, and greater dispel removes one spell per four caster levels (starting from highest level).

Awesome. So now super buffed casters are even better, since other casters are less capable of removing their wards. Standard Paizil Fare.

But they want to be able to illustrate their iconic fighter TWFing. Of course, really supporting that in the mechanics would be going too far...

Isn't their iconic TWFing rules simply that they disabled the option of using sneak attack with it and now it sucks for every character instead of "every character who isn't a pounce rogue?"

I don't understand the logic behind taking an option that was woefully underpowered except for one iconic character type and then leaving it essentially as-is but nerfing it for that one character.

-Username17

Paizil Logic is an oxymoron. You're not supposed to understand it. There's nothing to understand, as it is the 'professional' equivalent of drunken monkeys playing darts.

I should note that the star blocks in these previews are built to show off specific themes and new rules bits, not to create a super optimized character. That, and I think that a fun weakness can really help to define a character. For Valeros, having a poor Will save sort of fits.

There is a fucking difference between "super-optimized" and "viable" and "waste of space," Jason. You want that spot in-between, not "laughably useless with descriptions that insult our intelligence, like "this devastating attack" or "goodies hidden for the math savvy.""

Glitterdust, got them all.

Even with a starting Int of 16 you end up with 25 after your circlet and level bonuses. DC 19 without even trying. 75% chance to auto negate the mook for near zero resource expenditure.

[Username17]

For reasons that defy ready analysis, Pathfinder characters are supposed to have lower stats - at least for warriors. For example, Wish s being modified such that last time I checked it was only useful for characters who only had one stat they cared about. That right there is going to really hurt a 14th level Fighter. So some of the lower numbers are because of Pathfinder rules intended to keep high level warriors from having nice things.

However the thing where we open up any monster book and throw him at a 14th level enemy and he dies without accomplishing anything is just pathetic. The Greater Shadesteel Golem has DR of 15/Adamantine and has an AC of 33. It's really just extremely sad.

-Username17

[Roy]

More standard Paizil fare. And as is usually the case with it, you have more fun playing with the packaging than the product. Along those lines...

Let's see how low we can go, finding stock mobs that utter annihilate his gimp. Bonus points if someone has linked the Paizils to this thread already.

[Username17]

More standard Paizil fare. And as is usually the case with it, you have more fun playing with the packaging than the product. Along those lines...

Let's see how low we can go, finding stock mobs that utter annihilate his gimp. Bonus points if someone has linked the Paizils to this thread already.

Well... he can do 10 physical at range and a d6 of fire. So any opponent with DR in the 10/whatever range can force him into melee regardless of speed. That's exploitable with an animated object, but that's a weird make-a-monster so that's kind of cheating.

The first thing that jumps into my head is the Huge Fire Elemental. CR 7. It's ambiently immune to all of Valeros' bullshit, because for some reason it's all Fire based. Also it can take a single move as fast as Valeros can double move. Also it has DR 5/-. And Spring Attack (with reach!). He has Fire Resistance, so it should be a plus for him, but honestly that fire does 2d8 damage and is grinding him down on top of the fact that it does more damage to him than he does to it. He has more hit points, but it is crit immune and he is only crit resistant. So against this monster half his level, it's a pretty even fight.

But really that Will Save is just too fucking brutal. He doesn't fair super well against an Allip (CR 3). If he fails a DC 16 Will Save it gets to attack him for 2d4 rounds before he gets to make another Will Save. It hits him on a 14, and does a d4 Wisdom Drain. So it'll probably take 4 hits, or about 9 attacks for it to drop him. So if he fails two of his babble saves in a row (a 36% chance), he's probably going down. So against a CR three Allip, this character has about a one in three chance of not surviving the night.

-Username17

[Fuchs]

Game Devs should stop making characters themselves, and just let the optimizers go at that.

[hogarth]

Also, as a joke, the Fighter can't penetrate the DR on 5 of the nine creatures. Like, literally no damage taking average.

Note that in the Pathfinder Beta rules, a +3 weapon (not one enhanced with GMW) can bypass DR/silver and DR/cold iron, so that's actually 3 creatures, not 5.

The rest of the criticisms are spot on the money, though.

[DeadlyReed]

They posted the iconic sorcerer.

[Iron Mongler]

They posted the iconic sorcerer.

Fort +6

It's like we're really jumping to the other end of the spectrum here!

5th (4/day)—cone of cold (DC 22)
4th (6/day, 5 remaining)—dimension door, ice storm, stoneskin, wall of fire

wat

Cone of Cold? Ice Storm?

BURNING HANDS!?

If the attack misses by 5 or less, one of your figments is destroyed by the near miss. Area spells affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments. Spells and effects that do not require an attack roll affect you normally and do not destroy any of your figments.

why????

[Roy]

They posted the iconic sorcerer.

Link to the Fail?

Frank: Good points. Though I was more thinking in terms of 'most enemies at this level will do it' and not just some of them, because you know they'd just whine about the latter claiming it's a team game (as if not being able to take on something 20-50% of your level, alone were somehow defensible).

I'm guessing the cut off is around level 10, as in most stuff 4 levels lower can curbstomp him with trivial ease, thus he can't even handle mooks. But as the MM1 is not organized very well it's hard to tell.

Edit: Indeed. Standard Con, a Con item, and the base save alone should be getting +7 or +8 and that's before counting the cloak/superior resistance, etc.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

Guys, I'm really at a loss here. Wasn't Jason Bulmahn the one who wanted people to playtest stuff, but it seems here he is the one who makes a character who hasn't been playtested.

I really wonder, what's it gonna take to demonstrate to these people that they don't know how to design? I mean, do we have to make youtube videos and literally show people us rolling the dice?

I'm very curious about your thoughts.

--Bill

[Iron Mongler]

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog

Feast your eyes.

[hogarth]

Guys, I'm really at a loss here. Wasn't Jason Bulmahn the one who wanted people to playtest stuff, but it seems here he is the one who makes a character who hasn't been playtested.

I really wonder, what's it gonna take to demonstrate to these people that they don't know how to design? I mean, do we have to make youtube videos and literally show people us rolling the dice?

I'm very curious about your thoughts.

--Bill

I certainly don't agree with everything Jason said and done, but to be fair it's a no-win situation. If he makes radical changes, he pisses off the people who like the status quo and compatibility with existing 3.5 products. If he doesn't make radical changes, he disappoints the people who expected something different from 3.5.

I think he's been pretty clear all along -- if you hate 3.5, you'll hate the Pathfinder RPG too.

[Username17]

I think he's been pretty clear all along -- if you hate 3.5, you'll hate the Pathfinder RPG too.

The problem is that what most people wanted was "Just like 3.5 but with some broken crap fixed."

They've made it abundantly clear that they have no intention of fixing any problems. Or even of employing a methodology that could identify problems. That Fighter, for example, is totally unplayable in 3.5. The fact that it even got published indicates that they aren't playing this game. Let alone analyzing anything.

-Username17