Make everyone decent at the social minigame or get rid of it

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

ckafrica wrote:Care to share?
It's all thoroughly shared already.

Find my older threads on social combat, and there are more than one, or for a slightly more cursory but recent mention just have a look at the discussion involving me toward the end of the Gaijin Activities thread.

Ultimately there is a significant difference of opinion between me and the "nerf social rules now!" crowd in that I'm more than happy to adopt the idea that effects similar to those of d20 Charm, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are both acceptable and the ideal goal of a complex social mechanic. (note this is the effects, not the rather broken methods of those rules)

While they apparently want complex social mechanics that never give out effects as powerful and "mind control like" as that. And that's just not acceptable. If you can never actual do something as powerful as making a friend or ally then it doesn't deserve the status of a mini game.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

mean_liar wrote:
ckafrica wrote:It's not to say that characters need to be absolutely equal in all situations. Barbarian bob should have strong social skill when dealing with warriors and intimidating people. Petee the Poet should stand out when impressing teenage girls and nobility. Roger the rogue shines when gleaning information from lowlifes.
This actually is what I'm advocating as a stopgap for DnD socializing.
So, if the current premise is that people can contribute more-or-less equally in the two arenas of 'in-combat' and out-of-combat'; then the new premise would be that there are three arenas: 'combat,' social,' and 'non-combat non-social.'
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

In short, yes. More specifically, just as combat can have a lot of nuance (constructs/constricted quarters/flying/etc) social situations would too that would favor certain characters over others.

It's not so much being able to contribute necessarily equally, but rather having at least some avenue where you can contribute a situation. At some point the GM's role as storyteller and stage-setter comes in; if the player of the barbarian wants to have a social roleplay stage then a game set among patrician nobility won't favor him, and the GM should probably write some way for the game to migrate to an arena where his contribution would be meaningful.

The remaining problem that has no answer (PL - we understand you feel that no problem has been answered) is that magic obviates the non-combat non-social aspects of the game, at least in DnD.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

mean_liar wrote:The remaining problem that has no answer (PL - we understand you feel that no problem has been answered) is that magic obviates the non-combat non-social aspects of the game, at least in DnD.
Actually that remarkably enough isn't a massive problem.

It is barely a problem at all.

"non-combat/non-social" is another way of describing "everything else" or rather, everything outside actual formal rules resolution.

These things, like lock picking, often involve a dice roll. But there are a number of defining aspects to them.

1) Dice may be rolled but the difficulties, circumstantial modifiers and often even the basic character bonuses involved are close enough to entirely arbitrary as not to matter.

2) Resolution is very quick, and very simple. One dice roll, or less, at least as long as you aren't in "skill challenge" wank fantasy land.

3) Usefulness of abilities depends on arbitrary context. Having a +5 to lock picking means very little since the GM basically will throw down DCs pretty much as he likes, and since there are probably five other ways to get past or through that locked door. But it is of even less value when you consider that it only becomes useful at all if the GM happens to throw locked doors at you, or if you seek them out. Alternately they could be, contextually, of massive value, for little or no real reason. The GM, the story or the players can just happen to arrange things that way. Whatever.

4) These abilities are all pretty easy to just bypass. Failing to track some guy doesn't end the game or even the adventure, no picking a door lock means pretty little when you can kick it in, teleport through the wall, break a window, go around, or just go find some other way to spend your time.

5) Many of these things would be best resolved without a dice roll at all. A lot of these things are pretty risk free and relatively valueless actions in the long run. Having the ability "pick locks" could about 99% of the time just as easily be resolved by saying "I pick the lock with my lock pick ability" and the GM saying "Yes you do". Indeed most of the time the game would be better off resolving this largely arbitrary bullshit in this manner.

So anyway the sum total of all this means that basically anything that falls into "quick and arbitrary" cracks between the real rules is both just short of valueless and also just short of impossible to balance.

And that's OK because what you do is admit that it is just quick and arbitrary, stop WANKING about pretending it's real formal resolution, support it in a quick and arbitrary manner and make sure you never trade out combat (or other genuinely formalized) power for it. Then you just give out the abitrary shit in whatever (separate) scheme you like, because who the fuck cares?

+15 to profession (basket weaving) is NEVER EVER worth +5 BAB, but it may or not be worth more or less than +7 profession (gold prospector) and no one gives a damn.

Having one guy get +20 extra from a spell is mildly annoying but ultimately not really largely more or less arbitrary than the base system itself.
RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

PhoneLobster wrote: Ultimately there is a significant difference of opinion between me and the "nerf social rules now!" crowd in that I'm more than happy to adopt the idea that effects similar to those of d20 Charm, Diplomacy, and Intimidate are both acceptable and the ideal goal of a complex social mechanic. (note this is the effects, not the rather broken methods of those rules)

While they apparently want complex social mechanics that never give out effects as powerful and "mind control like" as that. And that's just not acceptable. If you can never actual do something as powerful as making a friend or ally then it doesn't deserve the status of a mini game.
If you're going to make social stuff that powerful, then PCs shouldn't be immune to it and should have to play it like everything else.

My main problem with the concept of powerful social systems is that most people want PCs to be completely immune to that minigame, which is just stupid IMO. I like the rules to be equal on both sides.

One reason I find magic teaparty to be a good social resolution is that it is a very equal system. the DM plays the NPCs and the PCs play the PCs. And that's at least equal on both sides.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Thu May 28, 2009 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:If you're going to make social stuff that powerful, then PCs shouldn't be immune to it and should have to play it like everything else.
Yes, regardless of the power in fact, yes, of course PCs should be effected. Not doing that is stupid and wrong and eliminates more than half the benefit of having the damn system.
One reason I find magic teaparty to be a good social resolution is that it is a very equal system. the DM plays the NPCs and the PCs play the PCs. And that's at least equal on both sides.
Which is why I think that's the perfect resolution method for the majority of simple social encounters and that a social combat system should kick in as an almost meta game event to partially hand control of a character between players. You know the routine...
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