Changes For Fiends and Rich Baker

[JonSetanta]

Interesting. Gimme time to read and extrapolate. I remember mention of the Hells being in Astral, which is a really WoD kinda thing, but I dunno.. not enough info yet for opinions...

[Crissa]

Simple, a bit too much layercake for me, but...

...Not really D&D, either.

What does this have to do with making the game better? No more planescape with weird timeflows?

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

No more planescape? No more shitty, nonsensical cosmology? I mean sure, this one ain't too great either, but it's better than the Great Wheel.

[RandomCasualty]

1191315762[/unixtime]]No more planescape? No more shitty, nonsensical cosmology? I mean sure, this one ain't too great either, but it's better than the Great Wheel.

From the sound of it, the great wheel can still exist, they just exist as regions within the astral or whatever.

Aside from adding the Fey Wild and getting rid of the ethereal, I don't really see many changes.

[Cielingcat]

Damnit, there goes my enthusiasm.


As an aside, what the hell is so great about Sigil? I seriously cannot understand why everyone creams themselves over it. I mean, sure, Planescape: Torment gave it a good light, but you don't see me calling FR the best setting ever just because it had Baldur's Gate.

[Koumei]

NWN is the reason I like Forgotten Realms, though, so I imagine PS:T is the reason why people go crazy for Sigil.

[JonSetanta]

Sigil = you can buy or steal anything rare you could ever want (if you survive the random encounters) without divine intervention fucking up your day.

However, once you leave Sigil it's all fair game to Polymorph your skin into maggots or muscle tissue into acid or whatever D&D gods do when you piss em off too much.
So yeah guess I never fully understood the appeal either.

It's the City of Doors yet you can access those same portals through the Astral!
And it's just as random!

[Koumei]

1191321841[/unixtime]]or whatever D&D gods do when you piss em off too much.

They send 4 level appropriate encounters after you each day until you're strong enough to kill them.

[Cielingcat]

D&D gods are cartoon villains?

[tzor]

1191288941[/unixtime]]Discuss

As wit everything, the devils in the details, but this is a complete reversal of the complex n dimensional 1E etherial/elemental/astral model and does seem to embody the KISS principle.

More importantly, we've got dead people! (No really look at the 3E RAW there is no way to directly communicate with the spirit of the dead - speak with dead is really animate dead brain - other than to ask a yes no quesiton of "do you want to be resurrected?") This brings up all the classical myths of going to the land of the dead to bring back or to talk to the spirits of the dead. That's what necromancy really is after all, talking to the spirits of the dead to gain secret insight and information.

It might be good, it might be bad. More likely the later, but it might be fixable.

[Koumei]

1191329145[/unixtime]]D&D gods are cartoon villains?

Of course they are. Think about it for a moment and it all makes perfect sense. I fully expect them to use Minor Image to make it seem like solid walls have tunnels in them, only to fall for their own 'trap' one minute later.

[JonSetanta]

1191327409[/unixtime]]

1191321841[/unixtime]]or whatever D&D gods do when you piss em off too much.

They send 4 level appropriate encounters after you each day until you're strong enough to kill them.

[cthulhu]

1191319751[/unixtime]]Damnit, there goes my enthusiasm.


As an aside, what the hell is so great about Sigil? I seriously cannot understand why everyone creams themselves over it. I mean, sure, Planescape: Torment gave it a good light, but you don't see me calling FR the best setting ever just because it had Baldur's Gate.

Having never played it except PS:T i like the flavour text better than FR for example?

[Cielingcat]

Yes, but what about it is so good? It may be because the majority of my exposure to it is via WotC forums, but to me the setting seems to be composed of "this NPC is better than you can ever be, and your purpose is to do meaningless tasks for him. If he gets angry you die instantly with no save. Now bend over."

[Koumei]

You're seriously not meant to meet that NPC. She is like traffic lights: essential for the city to run smoothly, and there are some basic rules that she dictates, but you don't go and talk to her, or get given quests by her.

But I think it does come down to how you're exposed to it - I played a really good 3.5 campaign which lacked some of the stupid stuff like Clerics losing spellcasting power based on where they are. If your primary exposure is the WotC boards, well, we know what their mental capacity is like.

[Catharz]

1191383617[/unixtime]]Yes, but what about it is so good? It may be because the majority of my exposure to it is via WotC forums, but to me the setting seems to be composed of "this NPC is better than you can ever be, and your purpose is to do meaningless tasks for him. If he gets angry you die instantly with no save. Now bend over."

I get the feeling that you haven't actually read any of the Planescape modules. There were certainly things which some people found annoying (giving planars cockney accents), but I don't think a lack of player direction or level-appropriate encounters was ever much of a problem.

Sigil was great because it let low-level players have a lot of variety. Unlike the Astral, you don't have to be in god mode to get there, and the game ends up looking more like Time Bandits than 'you own greyhawk'.

It makes it incredibly easy for a DM to make things different just by change of scenery. Tired of dungeon crawling in Pandemonium? No problem, we can give you a dungeon crawl in Mechanus, or the undercity, or in Yggdrasil or near Ilsensine's caverns, and it will seem completely different.

Perfect opportunities to try out different monster sets, bluff your way past fiends which could tear you apart, and the DM can always throw in an escape route (in the form of a gate).

Sigil itself is nice because it's a base of operations that's always near by. You can have a wilderness adventure in the Beastlands, but when you need to resupply there's probably a way to get to your safe-house in Sigil. Because it's the planar metropolis the DM can decide to put anything he wants there. People like to badmouth the Lady of Pain as some sort of spiky DM penis extension, but really she's just flavor text for why you can have normal PCs in a reasonably stable area on the outer planes. And the city itself is probably better described than Waterdeep.

Plus the illustrations are awesome. Tony DiTerlizzi is a great artist, and the production values over all were pretty high. It's hard to overstate how much better Planescape was, aesthetically, than most of the other settings.

In addition, the added player races have a lot of appeal. I mean, why play the same old elf ranger when you can be a tiefling wizard? I'm sure that some people were thrilled with the option of playing a 'taur with the base rules as well.

Obviously all of this will result is backlash from those who haven't been able to enjoy its good points and see only what seems to be the fandom doting on it like priests of a dead god.

[Draco_Argentum]

PS:T made it seem pretty cool as long as you like the belief = reality philosophy.

[JonSetanta]

Oddly, Psions can access Astral much sooner than Arcane casters.

Not to derail but what's everyone's opinion on that? Should Astral, and in same vein Elemental and Shadow planes, be accessed at low, mid, or high levels?
My vote is relatively low for viewing, recon, and communication, but mid levels (around 10+) for bringing the physical body there. After all, Teleport is SL5.
Maybe even at character level 7, since Dimension Door has that potential (yet doesn't.)

[Username17]

Before the 3.5 revision, dimension door left you on the Astral Plane if the target location wasn't open. So there's ample precedent for the spell being used as a gateway to the Astral - people did it for years before Andy Collins said no.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Ohoho!

[RandomCasualty]

1191476277[/unixtime]]Oddly, Psions can access Astral much sooner than Arcane casters.

I always felt the astral was closer connected to psions than wizards.

Generally when you hear the terms "Astral projection" you're almost always talking about psionics, at least in everyday life. D&D is about the only game that has it as a spell but not a psipower.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah but I mean (and sorry to post so often) even if it's "flavor" a Psion shouldn't be able to accomplish at low levels what a L17 Wizard must use a L9 slot to do.
I'd like that kind of inter-dimensional travel balanced between classes, across the board so to speak.

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Astral Traveler[br]Psychoportation[br]Level: Psion/wilder 1, psychic warrior 1[br]Display: None[br]Manifesting Time: 1 hour[br]Range: Touch[br]Target: Creature touched[br]Duration: See text[br]Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)[br]Power Resistance: Yes (harmless)[br]Power Points: 1[br][br]This power allows you or a creature you touch to participate in an astral caravan created through use of the astral caravan power. While participating in a journey allowed by the astral caravan power, you must hold the hand of both your fellow passenger ahead of you (or the caravan leader) and your fellow passenger behind you (unless you happen to be the last in the hand-linked line). If you or any one of your fellow passengers breaks the hand-to-hand link for 2 consecutive rounds, the impetus through the Astral Plane provided by astral caravan fails. See the astral caravan power for more information.[br][br]All those who are part of the caravan who are capable of performing purely mental actions, such as manifesting a power, may do so while maintaining hand-to-hand contact with their fellow travelers. When astral travelers begin their journey, each one is connected to the Material Plane by an insubstantial silvery cord. Very few weapons exist that can damage a silvery cord.[br][br]The last creature in the line of those making up the caravan is sometimes referred to as the rear guard, because he or she has one hand free and can use it to wield a weapon without relinquishing his or her grip on the next traveler in line. The weightless, subjective environment of the Astral Plane allows the caravan to flex and bend as necessary to bring the rear guard’s weapon to bear.

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Astral Caravan[br]Psychoportation[br]Level: Nomad 3[br]Display: None[br]Manifesting Time: 1 hour[br]Range: Personal[br]Targets: You and touched willing creatures[br]Duration: See text[br]Power Points: 5[br][br]You lead a caravan into the Astral Plane, leaving the Material Plane behind. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you wish, but only if you know your way (see below).[br][br]You can bring other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects have each manifested astral traveler and are linked hand to hand with you at the time of the astral caravan’s manifestation. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey that causes you to break hand-to-hand contact, your companions are stranded wherever you leave them. Because the planes are a dangerous place, those who lead astral caravans usually choose to manifest this power only if they have a large party of travelers assembled. Sometimes groups of lower-level adventurers may hire you to lead forays beyond the Material Plane.[br][br]The astral caravan power lasts while you and your fellow travelers maintain your original formation, until (1) you reach your intended destination plane, (2) you desire to end the power while still traversing the Astral Plane, (3) you or anyone traveling with you breaks the hand-to-hand chain connecting the travelers for 2 consecutive rounds, or (4) the power is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel psionics. When the power ends, you and your fellow travelers halt in whatever portion of the Astral Plane you happen to be traversing (the Astral Plane is in many ways subjective in location; in any event, one place on the Astral looks much like any other).[br][br]While you are traveling through the Astral Plane, those natives who happen to glimpse you and your fellow travelers perceive you to be moving at a speed of 30 feet (you can’t run), with you flying in the lead and your fellow travelers strung out behind you, each linked to the next by one hand.[br][br]Depending on your knowledge of the planes, your journey through the subjective space that is the Astral Plane may take a longer or shorter period of time. For each 24 hours you travel, make a Knowledge (the planes) check. Unless a location is particularly hard to find and well guarded, or conversely easy to find and well advertised, the average DC for an astral caravan journey should be set at 20. You cannot take 20 on this check, though you can take 10. Each check may be modified by your degree of familiarity with the destination or by some connection you have with the place; see the tables below.[br][br]Destination Knowledge (the planes)   [br]Knowledge							Check Modifier[br]None*								    n/a[br]Secondhand (you have heard of the destination)	-10[br]Firsthand (you have visited before)			+0[br]Familiar (you have visited three or more times)	    +5[br]*If you have no direct knowledge of your destination, you must have some connection to it in order to travel there; see below.[br][br]Knowledge (the planes)   [br]Connection 					Check Modifier[br]Likeness or picture of destination		+2[br]Object from destination				   +4[br]Planar Cartographer’s map of destination    +10[br][br][br]Each successful check indicates that you are one step closer to your goal. To finally arrive at your location, you must succeed on six checks within a span of 12 days. (If you fail to make six successful checks within the first 12 days, you can continue to make one check per day until you get the requisite six successes within a span of 12 consecutive days). When you successfully make the requisite number of checks, the journey ends, and you appear on your chosen plane within 10-1,000 (1d% x 10) miles of your intended destination on that plane.[br][br]Augment: If you spend 2 additional power points, this power weaves a quasi-real filmy membrane around yourself and all those adjacent to each other in the caravan (being linked by hand is not required if this membrane is used). You remain visible within the translucent, amorphous enclosure. You can pick up or drop willing passengers, easily reaching through the film. Anything you hold is enveloped by the film. Any attacks made through the enclosure in either direction have a 25% miss chance due to the rippling membrane.[br][br]When you manifest this power in its augmented form, your apparent speed to those observing on the Astral Plane is 40 feet, and you can make a Knowledge (the planes) check once every 12 hours to attempt to make it to your destination (six successful checks within 12 consecutive days still sees you to your desired goal).

compare to:

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Astral Projection[br][br]Necromancy[br]Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Travel 9 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 30 minutes Range: Touch Targets: You plus one additional willing creature touched per two caster levels Duration: See text Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes[br][br]By freeing your spirit from your physical body, this spell allows you to project an astral body onto another plane altogether.[br][br]You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.[br][br]You project your astral self onto the Astral Plane, leaving your physical body behind on the Material Plane in a state of suspended animation. The spell projects an astral copy of you and all you wear or carry onto the Astral Plane. Since the Astral Plane touches upon other planes, you can travel astrally to any of these other planes as you will. To enter one, you leave the Astral Plane, forming a new physical body (and equipment) on the plane of existence you have chosen to enter.[br][br]While you are on the Astral Plane, your astral body is connected at all times to your physical body by a silvery cord. If the cord is broken, you are killed, astrally and physically. Luckily, very few things can destroy a silver cord. When a second body is formed on a different plane, the incorporeal silvery cord remains invisibly attached to the new body. If the second body or the astral form is slain, the cord simply returns to your body where it rests on the Material Plane, thereby reviving it from its state of suspended animation. Although astral projections are able to function on the Astral Plane, their actions affect only creatures existing on the Astral Plane; a physical body must be materialized on other planes.[br][br]You and your companions may travel through the Astral Plane indefinitely. Your bodies simply wait behind in a state of suspended animation until you choose to return your spirits to them. The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means, such as dispel magic cast upon either the physical body or the astral form, the breaking of the silver cord, or the destruction of your body back on the Material Plane (which kills you).[br][br]Material Component: A jacinth worth at least 1,000 gp, plus a silver bar worth 5 gp for each person to be affected.

EDIT: ugh stupid TAB things fucked.. well you get the idea. They can do it at L5, maybe L1, I'm sorta confused about the 'caravan' thing vs. the L1 power.

[RandomCasualty]

1191485089[/unixtime]]Yeah but I mean (and sorry to post so often) even if it's "flavor" a Psion shouldn't be able to accomplish at low levels what a L17 Wizard must use a L9 slot to do.
I'd like that kind of inter-dimensional travel balanced between classes, across the board so to speak.

Thing is that if you're using the astral to get to other planes, it's not a real transport spell, more of a plot device. Basically portals to other planes only exist to where the DM wants them to go, so it's no different from just finding a portal on the prime material and walking through it.

This is one element I thought planescape did right. If you want low to mid level planar exploration, just have a bunch of natural portals, you don't need to explain them or what not. Just treat them like plot devices, because that's what they are. If the plot calls for a portal to require a key to use then so be it. Sometimes old portals fail and new ones are discovered... you know... whatever happens to suit the plot at the time.

And it's easy to write stories out of that. So if you want The iron fortress of Dis to be easy to get to, you just create a portal there, if not, then you've got to go the old fashioned way. That's the way pretty much all fantasy tends to work.

Also, astral projection versus astral caravan. Projection effectively makes you unkillable, caravan doesn't.

[JonSetanta]

But the cheese is that Psion can make such Planescape portals anywhere, any time. I'd like Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard, and any other full-casters to do that, maybe even Paladin and Ranger too (but that's a big maybe)

[RandomCasualty]

1191485612[/unixtime]]But the cheese is that Psion can make such Planescape portals anywhere, any time. I'd like Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Bard, and any other full-casters to do that, maybe even Paladin and Ranger too (but that's a big maybe)

I don't think that's a power we should give any class until high levels. Even then, it's very difficult to tell a story when characters can go anywhere at any time.

Some DM controls are useful to structure the story in a way that makes sense.