Right.
First things first.
This is probably the last thread I'll participate in on the bboy boards.
It has taken me an unusually long amount of time to decide to reply. Usually, I practice the "a samurai must make a decision within 7 breaths" style of decision making – going with what appears right, or, if no moral decisions function into it, fun or convenient.
In this case however, I'm dealing with something extremely unpleasant. It reminds me of posting on stormfront, or, to use a less offensive example the black isle politics board (which is where the link to stormwatch, along with the suggestion to bash the people there came from. Some people have no grasp of irony).
I fear that I will lose my temper. I fear I will not be able to make my points simple and understandable. I'm already perturbed and slightly afraid upon discovering that people I've interacted with on daily basis react to "Hitler killed the wrong 6 million Jews" with nothing more than an "eh" and I'm ill at ease at the prospect of discovering their further reacting to this argument.
After all, this post is going to be very long. Still, if you believe… actually, you might want to read this post regardless of what you believe. It will contain, for the most part, facts. Not "facts according to" – facts that both sides are willing to accept, or even proclaim, more or less loudly. There will be no conspiracy theories, insane troll logic, or statements that would be an invitation to commit violence IRL. All debatable opinions will be noted with the appropriate tag.
(The above comes from a political forum I frequent. At certain times, people grow tired of having to ascertain that the sky is blue [except during the night time, when clouded, and when viewed by a colour blind person] and the grass is green [except when it's dead, painted a different colour or genetically improved]) at the beginning (as well as every few pages) of an argument). At the risk of offending someone, most of the items below are the basic "sky and grass" facts, that you'd probably accept in order to start the discussion. They are blindingly obvious, and if you don't accept them (IMO and IME) you're probably uninformed, naive, stupid and/or fanatical.)
I'd like to thank Frank for making my last posts on bboy about something. Or another. While the above regarding violence IRL stands true, as well as my… very poor opinion of anyone who believes I, my family and friends should be dead, based on us belonging to an ethnic/religious/national group rather because of personal knowledge of who we are. I also appreciate the easily disproved… claims… that the argument is full of. I even wondered briefly whether the above is some sort of very subtle parody, then I remembered what I remember about the poster.
I'd also like to thank Maj. For the link. For her relatively courageous behavior. And for making my worldview simpler. After all, we all enjoy simpler worlds, and one in which anyone tentatively pro-Muslim believes that Israel should be destroyed deep down inside, and is simply to cowardly to say so is fairly black and white.
This post will have a lot of Nazi/Holocaust comparisons. I've read "Adam, son of a dog" the other day, Frank has been nice enough to bring them up, and I'm a Jew in the land of Israel, so…
Now, on to the facts proper?
Not quite. This is a slightly off-topicish psycho-analysis. Or "ruminations on the how's and why's". I enjoy trying to comprehend the various motives of people who do things that baffle me. At times, I even go as far as asking them (which rarely goes well. The prevailing answer is "I don't know, because." * Shrug* ). And, with time, I've managed to learn to arrive at something that sounds like it makes sense and doesn't fall apart after further interaction after having a relatively brief, but information filled exchange with the subject.
In any case, this refers to the age old "why is he picking on ME?". Or, more specifically, why Israel? Or even more specifically, what's with the "Nazis, South Africans and Israelis" string? It's a distinguishing thread that goers through a lot of similar rants as the worst atrocities commit ed in the last 50 years. That's… interesting. In case anyone forgot, in that time period we've had
Rwanda Sri-Lanka (Tamil's Cambodia, not to mention Russia and China and
and so forth. Few people are actively insane enough to claim that the above aren't many, many, many, many times worse that what even the Arabs claim Israel to be. And yet… the lack of interest is incomparable. The reasons?
Well, nobody could claim that Israel being populated by Jews has anything to do with it. After all, identifying being Anti-Israel with being an Anti-Semite has long been announced a straw man, an ad-hominiem attack upon the Anti-Israelis, etc. Just because the Arab/Muslim rhetoric mixes anti-Israeli and anti-Semite feeling freely, as does Neo-Nazi rhetoric, doesn't mean I should insult the person who thinks that Hitler killed the wrong 6 million Jews by assuming s/he/it is an Anti-Semite. (Yes, I am using "Frank" and "People who think like him" more or less interchangeably. Some are more forward about their feelings, some are less, but at their core, they're quite similar)
What else could it possibly be? America supporting Israel? That's an interesting subject for a discussion – the way countries supported by America are are viewed by the western world and certain parts of the American left – but it's
quite long, and doesn't tie quite as neatly with South-Africa.
It's white vs brown/black (natch, most Israelis are actually brown, and quite a few are black. But you wouldn't know it if you didn't live here). Very simple, if presented properly. Captures the undeveloped mind and heart. Brown people may slaughter brown people by the millions, and black people may slaughter black people by the hundreds of thousands, but… it doesn't film well. It's hard to tell them all apart, and you have to work in order to turn it into a simple "right and wrong", oppressor and oppressed issue. And who needs to work to understand or care about a situation?
Hey, if you have an alternative hypothesis that doesn't echo my thought back at me, and isn't completely insane, share it. I've been wondering about the issue myself, for quite some time.
…
And, to deconstructing the posts proper.
Jews, Arabs and Britt's during WW2.
I dislike… nay, I loathe the excuse of "other people have/would have done worse". I would hate to use something as stupid as "other countries ruled by the British used the opportunity of WW2 to attempt to free themselves. Some of them actively co-operated with the Axis to do so." No. That's pointless.
Instead, I will talk about Ben-Guiron's promise to "Struggle with the British oppression as if there is no Nazi enemy, and help fight the Nazi enemy as if there was no British oppression" (recently adapted into "Make peace as if there are no terrorists, and fight terrorists as if we're not making peace" proving how much more retarded our politicians have grown over the last 50 years. Battalions of Israeli volunteers have enlisted to fight the Nazi enemy, paratroopers (yes, it's stupid but true) have been landed in Europe to help the local partisans (resistance fighters) and agents have been sent to attempt to help the local Jewish population. Not nearly enough was done, but that's… Simultaneously,they undermined the local British rule in Israel. Which:
A) Hasn't exactly hampered the forces actually fighting the Germans.
B) If anyone needs an explanations to the why's of it, have been capturing and sending ship-fulls of Jewish refugees right back into the ovens. Naturally, that would have been improper during the war, so they sent them into… detainment… camps on local islands. Etc, etc, fairly boring stuff really.
But… what about the Arabs, presumably the good guys, because they weren't working against the local British rule (mostly because the local British rule was pro-Arab through and through)? Why, their
leaders were meeting Hitler and enlisting troops into the Waffen SS. (Again… these are the facts. The Arabs in no way deny them, the Mufti is Arafat's hero.)
Honestly, when I read that particular "working against the British" bit, I wondered (for the first, but not the last time) whether it is a subtle parody, an attempt to build an argument that anyone with the barest hints of historical knowledge could tear apart…
Regarding the "Israelis are Nazis" in general. This is another moment that fascinates me. The why's an how's of it. Maybe the Arabs/Palestinians are masters of propaganda. Maybe they're pretty good at shouting down the opponent with a witty "No, YOU'RE stupid" rejoinder. Or maybe the world is just anxious to believe certain untruths. In any case… Arab leaders have cooperated with Nazi officials. Arab leaders (both those in the 1940's and those that came latter) talked admiringly of the Nazis long after the war. Arabs have served in the Waffen SS. Arab rhetoric borrows freely from the Nazis (again, facts. Also, see below re – Arab speeches) . Arab caricatures re: Israel and the Jews might as well have been traced from Der Spigel circa 1936. "Mein Kampff" is a bigger seller in the Arab world today than it ever was in Germany (this amusing fact brought to you by the Egypt, Jordan and Lebanese governments). And yet…
[opinion]And yet, the Israelis, who have trivialized the Holocaust so in their home land. The same Israelis who (popular satirical bit, not quite as funny without the context) are willing to compare parking regulations to the Nirenberg laws, and the parking maid writing them a ticket to Hitler, are shocked into a stupor when they run into actually anti-Semites.Israelis are unwilling and somewhat unable to believe that the people who constantly proclaim their desire to kill all Jews are similar to the Nazis, and are much less than willing to enter a shouting competition to proclaim "No, actually
you're the one that's similar to a Nazi, and it's ironic that you're accusing us of the same".[/opinion]
[opinion]People on the right wing often sees things through a spectacle of some colour. "He's doing this because he's from ethnicity X/religion /Y and has secret plans Z". But… people on the left wing often just see pain a picture of the way things should be from within their mind, and place it right over the reality. A white man has a "racist pig" cut-out in front of him at all times, black people walk around with "poor victims" cut-outs blocking them. Same thing with what people say.
Back in 1995, I participated in a "meeting of cultures, facilitate a friendly exchange" with a group of Palestinians. And the young liberals who came along (and, let's face it, myself) were quite surprised at just how much they hated us. The peace process was in full swing, as far as we were concerned a peaceful resolution to the conflict was in sight. They… thought otherwise. They wanted us driven across the sea as the "realistic" option, and into it as the ideal one. Students hand-picked as the less radical elements. Some of my friends managed to ignore the above and return to their "all anyone wants is peace" habits. Some became rabid right-wingists. And I… I started actually listening to what the Palestinians leaders are saying. It's amazing how few people actually bother to do that, instead "knowing" what the Palestinians want based on pretty little pictures inside their own heads.
Another interesting point is the radically different interpretation of the texts. This is an interesting point… The Palestinians don't bother to lie. I mean, people don't actually listen to what they're saying, so why not come out and say what they think, want and what their aims are? They're saying absolutely out loud, that the final goal of any and all negotiations is the destruction of Israel. The radically tolerant part, the one that it took Palestinian leaders 40 years to actually accept without killing anyone who suggested it, is the willingness not to destroy it all at once. The willingness to accept arms, money and control of territory for the promise of being willing to talk to Israel about a peace process at some point in the future (this, btw, is what happened between 1990 to 1995). The willingness to entertain the idea of accepting more money, guns, and permanent control of most "conquered territories" for a 5 year cease-fire (the most radically tolerant idea yet).
Back to radically different interpretations of the text… let's keep it simple. When the Israelis talk (and talk, and talk) of their burning, urgent desire to actually have a permanent peace with anyone and everyone, at any cost, that's dismissed as lies. Nefarious intentions. And yet when Arabs and Palestinians openly declare that they have no ultimate goal other than the destruction of Israel, it's dismissed… in reality, they're exaggerating, trying to intimidate someone are really fluffy bunnies all around… (yes, lame text, the point is still clear I hope)[/opinion]
A small aside, that I couldn't figure out where else to place (I do hope you'll forgive me for wandering a little. I'm certain this post is fascinating enough that you're jumping with glee at the thought of additional bits of information).
Israeli Arabs aren't
denied the right of serving in the IDF. They
posses the right not to serve there, if they wish. The
Druz serve, and relatively speaking a larger percentage of the Druz serve in combat units than of the Jews. Quite a few Bedouins serve. Some Arabs serve, but they ostracized, beaten, and occasionally murdered. This is not surprising, after all, the Palestinians execute "cooperators with the Zionist enemy" on live television (now, in the middle of the peace process, whenever)(again, facts).
Another departure – re: the countries that America supports.
Ignoring the fact that the list presented is a bit less than full, how about we make another one? Countries that are frie… at pea… are willing not actively engage in hostile acts against Israel. Want to know what they have in common? Political, economical, publicity and even (relatively speaking) stability benefits. It's actually fairly simple – relatively sane, semi-western style democratic, econfiltered= peace with Israel. Or is it vice-versa? At the same time, more third-world, more insane, unstable, theocratic = rabidly attacking Israel. I wonder if there's some sort of lesson to be found here. [opinion]Egypt receives the better share of what's formally "money going to Israel" + modern arms for the army. Which is odd, seeing how a part the peace treaty with a country that's extremely unlikely to go to war with anyone other than Israel is better arms for that countries army.[/opinion]
The
Genocide that the Israelis are currently conducting against the Palestianins.
Did I mention how annoying it is to argue "the grass is green, the sky is blue, learn the meaning of the word before you use it?" It is, mind. A war isn't a genocide. A war where innocent people get killed isn't a genocide. Hell, up until 1939, what was happening in Europe wasn't a genocide. A genocide is the systematical eradication of an ethnicity. If slightly stretched, it might include a religion and, possibly, attempting to exterminate everyone in a nation. When two nations or more are in a state of war for over a century/50 years, and the population of one (X) grows in the order of several magnitudes, and does so much faster than the other's (Y) , that's a pretty big hint that Y isn't committing genocide on X.
Naturally, the usual response to that we're unwilling or unable to do so. International pressure, America's unwillingness to cooperate, whatever. That's… interesting. Since 1976, the Likud (of which Kadima isn't actually a continuation. It's more of a
Progressive Party to Likud's GOP) has been in power on several occasions. And yet… the Palestinians are still around. Nothing in the in the party programme talks about genocide, and in fact, it was during one of their terms that Israel's
most right-wing party who's party platform included the
Forcefull Transfer of the Palestinians/Disloyal Arabs was declared illegal. Presumably,the forces that be didn't allow it to exist because killing all of them would be so much easier. In fact, in the last 50 years, the Arabs themselves admit to having killed more Palestinians than they Israel has ever killed (see below), but we'll ignore that, because Arabs? The good guys.
So. It's a genocide that isn't actually happening at the moment. A genocide that we've been preparing for for the last 100 years. A genocide that we're not talking about, have no plans for, and in fact, is only revealed to Frank and his ilk, in prophetic dreams. Man, I bet the people in
Rwanda Sri-Lanka (Tamil's Cambodia etc would have been happy to be the victims of such a genocide.
The Palestinians would't be but their "genocides" are a gamble, anyway. Whenever the friendly host discovers that armed terrorists are less than polite house guests, and are really quite anxious to take power, it all becomes a matter of "which side is better armed and more ruthless". Syria and Jordan in one case. Most factions other than the Palestinians in Lebanon in another.
UN Resolutions.
[opinion]Do you remember the Rwanda etc part from the beginning of the post? Maybe you should go back and re-read. Does the conclusion still make sense?
Let's play a little game.
It's called "gooogle for UN resolutions against Israel. Now google for UN resolutions against the USSR, USA, China, Sri-Lanka, Cambodia, Anything in Africa".
The UN is a biased body that is hostile to Israel.[/opinion]
Last, but not least. "Both sides are just as bad." "I don't delude myself to believe that the Israelis are the good guys." And other phrases that make me throw up a little in my mouth, from people who are otherwise sane and intelligent.
To which… I could go into comparsions, analogies, etc, but…
Dresden.
Roosevelt's Internment Camps for Japanese-Americans. These aren't local fuck-ups. Or isolated incidents. These are bad, bad things, done as a result of government policy (and I didn't even mention the USSR). By the good guys in what's arguably the last war where the difference between the good guys and the bad guys was clear. And yet… where are the people claiming that the bombing of Dresden and the Blitz cancelled each other out, and both sides were equally at fault? Where are the people claiming that "both sides had concentration camps, and both sides are equally fucked up"?
Make no mistake, such people exist. But their rants are discounted as the crazy ravings that they are. For obvious reasons. At best, "Both sides are equally messed up" is the equivalent of the lazy and apathetic "I don't vote because all those bastards are alike". At worst…
This world doesn't have any saintly exalted heroes. The best amongst them are of a slightly less tarnished grey. It does have villains.
Roosevelt has to manipulate the living hell out of everyone to get the USA into the war. And he did so both for reasons both LG and personal/political and due to simple foresight and an instinct of preservation. He chose a monster nearly as evil as Hitler as his ally, and did a lot to pacify him, including
betraying a nation into his hands. And yet… he was fighting monster. And he won.
You don't get people who don't fuck up. Make mistakes, on whatever level, have people do stupid, cruel, evil things in times of war. And yet.
We want to live. Live, like normal people, like everyone. (this is from an old movie with Christopher Walken. Cheesy, but I like it. True to life).
Does anyone actually doubt that Israel would jump all over an offer from everyone to leave us the fuck alone? That this isn't our main desire?
We want to keep on existing. They don't want us to exist. It may be a strawman, but it sure is a durable one, having survived 50 years and several wars.
And, yes… the people who want would wish to be left in peace are the good guys. Stupid and flawed though they are. And the peple who wish to kill them all,the people who collaborated with the Nazis, the people who killed more Arabs in the last 50 years than the Jews ever did, etc… they are the bad guys.
PS - Why didn't I make any comparsions to the things the US did recently or less than recently? Because I didn't really go into specifics anyways, and because I presume that Frank advocates the destruction of the US. If that's not the case, then it's another hurrah for hypocracy.
