Frank and K, don't make me beg.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:59 pm

Well now you've can bring your army with you!

You do have supporters, right now Squirrellord is filing in but he's not frank or k level yet. It started with the barbarian thread and Some ideas got posted and ....

If we just turn over when the other "camp" has numbers well you've turned the world over to morons. Why? Because of ego? Or is it the adage of arguing with fools you've suffered the brunt of it for so long...
I do understand if you don't come back.
Further,
I did wonder how many design changes they implement by whats suggested on thier boards...

Nihlin · Post by **Nihlin** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:04 pm

Koumei wrote:Didn't you know? The internet is serious fucking business. Cue the many pictures with that very message.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:17 pm

What the hell? Of course you should take talking on forums seriously.

You are talking with real people and both you and they are taking real time out of your real lives to do so and discussing things you are deeply interested in and care about.

It's in no way magically less serious than exchanging letters via the post, talking on the phone or having a face to face conversation.

And if you think "it's on the internets, hur hur hur!" is an excuse to behave like an idiot and fuck about (you know who you are) when people are trying to have a genuine dialogue then you are both an idiot and a complete dick head.

edit: not to pick on you nihlin, I wrote this before your lightning waste my fucking time reflexes got your post up, but your post on this thread about stuff real people really care about pretty much demonstrates my point.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:29 pm

PhoneLobster wrote: And if you think "it's on the internets, hur hur hur!" is an excuse to behave like an idiot and fuck about (you know who you are) when people are trying to have a genuine dialogue then you are both an idiot and a complete dick head.

I haven't seen much genuine dialogue on the Paizo forums where Frank posted, or in many threads here, for that matter. Not to mention that I don't deeply care for the game mechanics of hobby games to get worked up about them.

Edit: Playing a game for fun is self-explanatory.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:43 pm

Jerry wrote:
PhoneLobster wrote: And if you think "it's on the internets, hur hur hur!" is an excuse to behave like an idiot and fuck about (you know who you are) when people are trying to have a genuine dialogue then you are both an idiot and a complete dick head.
I haven't seen much genuine dialogue on the Paizo forums where Frank posted, or in many threads here, for that matter. Not to mention that I don't deeply care for the game mechanics of hobby games to get worked up about them. I just play to have fun, y'know?

Well most of the genuine dialogue is about game mechanics here (just look at the stickies), also in the Own creation section. I don't know why you keep saying "I play for fun"...isn't that pretty much given since you are playing a game. Since none is getting paid to play this game I would assume they are playing for fun.

Much of the real work up is because somebody starts throwing insults and it just spirals down from there.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:49 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:What the hell? Of course you should take talking on forums seriously.

You are talking with real people and both you and they are taking real time out of your real lives to do so and discussing things you are deeply interested in and care about.

PhoneLobster's got a good point, guys; it takes a lot of time, effort, and money to post a comment on a public forum that anybody can sign up for.

Much of the real work up is because somebody starts throwing insults and it just spirals down from there.

I guess saying that I play for fun was redundant. I understand. It's because anybody could join a message board like Paizo. Just give out your e-mail address, and you're good to go! And that's enough motivation for trolls to spam.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:57 pm

Jerry wrote:I think that you're taking Internet message boards too seriously.

Lurk more.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 1:58 pm

Surgo wrote:
Jerry wrote:I think that you're taking Internet message boards too seriously.
Lurk more.

It's 4chan all over again!

NOOOO!!!

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue May 20, 2008 2:29 pm

I really hope everyone does play for fun. It'd suck to only play because someone is holding a gun to your head.

However, there are different ways to achieve that fun. Some won't have as much fun if there is a real problem with the game world (such as inconsistencies or... the word that I can't think of at the moment that refers to a lack of realism within the context of a world where it's accepted that flying men throw balls of flame). Many others don't enjoy a game where one person is the star of the show and everyone else just pretends to be useful.

Plenty also create content just for fun - nearly all of us can own up to that one.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue May 20, 2008 2:38 pm

Verisimilitude
Or just some plain old internal consistency.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:23 pm

Midnight_v wrote:Well now you've can bring your army with you!

You do have supporters, right now Squirrellord is filing in but he's not frank or k level yet. It started with the barbarian thread and Some ideas got posted and ....

If we just turn over when the other "camp" has numbers well you've turned the world over to morons. Why? Because of ego? Or is it the adage of arguing with fools you've suffered the brunt of it for so long...
I do understand if you don't come back.
Further,
I did wonder how many design changes they implement by whats suggested on their boards...

It doesn't matter who has the numbers. It matters that even if you got the entire forum to agree upon a methodology that wouldn't matter because Jason refused to have a genuine or meaningful acknowledgment of reported bugs. Jason refused to recognize a methodology or a design goal, and that means that the entire forum is just for show.

Testers find bugs. They report bugs to the development team. The development team then responds to those bugs and sends the new product back to testers. It's an iterative process that solves problems. But on the Paizo board, Jason has refused to commit to responding to or even acknowledging the bugs that the testers find. So there really aren't any testers. There's just focus groups.

The development team doesn't care about your input, so there is no reason to give any. And there certainly isn't any purpose served in doing any actual work in producing that input.

And that's the bottom line. And that's why it pays to be a dick on the internet. Because I could get to the bottom of it and discover that right at the beginning at Alpha 2 instead of having to slog through months of hopeful submissions and exhaustive testing only to discover that none of that effort meant dick come August.

-Username17

K · Post by K » Tue May 20, 2008 5:00 pm

I know for a fact that several of our suggestions have been implemented by Jason. He's just wants to pull a Gygax and take credit for them.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:37 pm

K wrote:I know for a fact that several of our suggestions have been implemented by Jason. He's just wants to pull a Gygax and take credit for them.

I think that you earlier said that the only suggestion he took was a flavor decision or something.

FrankTrollman wrote:And that's the bottom line. And that's why it pays to be a dick on the internet.

Just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously. Seriously, if that's your tactic, you shouldn't be surprised that you got kicked off when the mods kept telling you to "knock off the flaming." Not to mention that you contradicted yourself once.

You said in a Paizo thread that "people like you were being silent about what they liked, and complained about what they didn't like, so it's your turn to be quiet and shut up.

Then, sometime in this thread, you said that Jason Bulman wanted people to like his shit.

So it seems like you are criticizing all sides.

Not to mention that the point that you were trying to make did not have to take two weeks worth of posting. It didn't seem like you were getting "right to the point."

You're an enigma, Frank. I just don't get you.

K · Post by K » Tue May 20, 2008 9:06 pm

Jerry wrote:
K wrote:I know for a fact that several of our suggestions have been implemented by Jason. He's just wants to pull a Gygax and take credit for them.
I think that you earlier said that the only suggestion he took was a flavor decision or something.

When I say we, I mean Frank and I.

He took my flavor suggestion in a very clear and traceable way. I won't point it out because he's the kind of guy who would change it back if he thought he couldn't take credit for it.

He also made changes to solve Frank's Wish Economy (using one of Frank's proposed solutions that he posted) and to nerf blink rogues (a completely unnecessary move that only came up when there was dissension in Frank's playtest model).

There are a number of other ideas that we've popularized that have been adopted, but because we've popularized them they are in the ongoing conversation that is DnD so we can't direct take any direct credit for their application to Pathfinder.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:37 pm

To Frank and K: Plenty of various companies make D&D products, and not a lot of them are balanced or play-tested thoroughly. What is it about Paizo that grabbed your attention?

FrankTrollman wrote:
It doesn't matter who has the numbers. It matters that even if you got the entire forum to agree upon a methodology that wouldn't matter because Jason refused to have a genuine or meaningful acknowledgment of reported bugs. Jason refused to recognize a methodology or a design goal, and that means that the entire forum is just for show.

Testers find bugs. They report bugs to the development team. The development team then responds to those bugs and sends the new product back to testers. It's an iterative process that solves problems. But on the Paizo board, Jason has refused to commit to responding to or even acknowledging the bugs that the testers find. So there really aren't any testers. There's just focus groups.

The development team doesn't care about your input, so there is no reason to give any. And there certainly isn't any purpose served in doing any actual work in producing that input.

And that's the bottom line. And that's why it pays to be a dick on the internet. Because I could get to the bottom of it and discover that right at the beginning at Alpha 2 instead of having to slog through months of hopeful submissions and exhaustive testing only to discover that none of that effort meant dick come August.

-Username17

I asked earlier about this, and nobody has provided me a link or source yet. Can you provide analysis that they don't care what their consumers want?

Frank wrote:I didn't fail to play by their rules, I refused to verbally felate their staff. And since the Paizo boards are actually for generating praise rather than contribution, that was a far more grievous sin in their eyes

Meh. To me, it seems that they didn't like that you were arguing with Lich-loved and Aubrey because they disagreed with your ideas. The fact that your more exaggerated posts "you're a terrible scientist and terrible human being..." were taken seriously, and thus, people saw you as a troll.

K · Post by K » Tue May 20, 2008 11:27 pm

Jerry wrote:To Frank and K: Plenty of various companies make D&D products, and not a lot of them are balanced or play-tested thoroughly. What is it about Paizo that grabbed your attention?

They said "open playtest."

We like DnD. We'd like to see a version we could play in a convention with new people without any hassle. As a decently respectable company, they have a unique opportunity to accomplish this goal.

An open playtest also means that there is the potential that with a good argument and some sound numbers backing us up we could actually get corrections to several of the unusuable mechanics of the best version of DnD to date, and with Paizo's backing these corrections would be accepted by a large enough number of gamers that we'd have a viable community playing a good game.

Several threads popped up after we left asking Paizo about their methodology. You can search them out if you like, but in general Paizo stated that they don't really care about analysis. They want to know how "cool" things are.

By their actions, they are cherry-picking ideas without crediting anyone and allowing bullies to dominate the boards. Either one is pretty shady behavior, but I'm not returning because clearly this is NOT an open playtest.

It's a marketing focus group, and that's seriously a waste of my fucking time.

PS. I'm also personally insulted that I got banned for a week without even an email explaining the issue or giving me a chance to explain myself, especially after I was the one to call for a moderator to cool things down. (though I suspect that a company man's alias tried to get me to provide evidence, which is cowardly behavior beneath notice in my book.).

I'm not justifying my actions, but being publicly taunted without provocation over several weeks by an asshole with pretensions of high-mindedness is not going to encourage me to donate my time and energy to help someone else's profit margin.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:10 am

K wrote: Several threads popped up after we left asking Paizo about their methodology. You can search them out if you like, but in general Paizo stated that they don't really care about analysis. They want to know how "cool" things are.

PS. I'm also personally insulted that I got banned for a week without even an email explaining the issue or giving me a chance to explain myself, especially after I was the one to call for a moderator to cool things down.

Edited: Alright, I know enough, now. Let's just let the past be the past.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:13 am

Jerry wrote:
K wrote: Several threads popped up after we left asking Paizo about their methodology. You can search them out if you like, but in general Paizo stated that they don't really care about analysis. They want to know how "cool" things are.

PS. I'm also personally insulted that I got banned for a week without even an email explaining the issue or giving me a chance to explain myself, especially after I was the one to call for a moderator to cool things down.
Ooh, the big bad corporation is picking on the little guy. Let's just move on and let the past go to rest.

It's not because of relative size; that's offensive from anyone to anyone. And have you answered to the name "Captain Bleach" before?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:28 am

Bigode wrote:
Jerry wrote:
K wrote: Several threads popped up after we left asking Paizo about their methodology. You can search them out if you like, but in general Paizo stated that they don't really care about analysis. They want to know how "cool" things are.

PS. I'm also personally insulted that I got banned for a week without even an email explaining the issue or giving me a chance to explain myself, especially after I was the one to call for a moderator to cool things down.
Ooh, the big bad corporation is picking on the little guy. Let's just move on and let the past go to rest.
It's not because of relative size; that's offensive from anyone to anyone. And have you answered to the name "Captain Bleach" before?

So I wasn't the only one thinking that.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:31 am

I'm pleased that I wasn't the only one thinking that.
Edit: Heh.

Little dude, if you want to move on, why the fuck are you bringing it up?

K · Post by K » Wed May 21, 2008 1:55 am

Jerry wrote:
K wrote: Several threads popped up after we left asking Paizo about their methodology. You can search them out if you like, but in general Paizo stated that they don't really care about analysis. They want to know how "cool" things are.

PS. I'm also personally insulted that I got banned for a week without even an email explaining the issue or giving me a chance to explain myself, especially after I was the one to call for a moderator to cool things down.
Ooh, the big bad corporation is picking on the little guy. Let's just move on and let the past go to rest.

If they had the nuts to say "we timed you out because the shit was getting too thick, and you went over the line", then they'd have my grudging respect.

But there was no email. No warning. My account just didn't work one day.

It shows a fundamental lack of respect of me as a person. If they can't take thirty seconds out of their day before publicly shaming me, then they don't deserve my regard. Period.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:12 am

Voss wrote:I'm pleased that I wasn't the only one thinking that.
Edit: Heh.

Little dude, if you want to move on, why the fuck are you bringing it up?

Sorry. It seems that with this thread, you guys seem to still have it sore over what happened.

I'll stop now. The point has been driven through enough.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:47 am

Sore? Not really. People 'round here are just fairly open about their contempt for people who act like shitheads, or are just plain stupid. Its much healthier to let it all out, rather than try to repress that shit.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:55 am

Alright, Voss, that's fine with me,.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:30 am

Fuck off with the image macro shit.

PL wrote:You are talking with real people and both you and they are taking real time out of your real lives to do so and discussing things you are deeply interested in and care about.

It's in no way magically less serious than exchanging letters via the post, talking on the phone or having a face to face conversation.

Gaming discussion of all kinds < nearly everything. Prime example, most of us dumped 3.P. If it was something that mattered we'd stay on and try to make a difference.

The Gaming Den

Frank and K, don't make me beg.

Hmm...

Re: Hmm...