Making magical bling

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:03 pm

I like the idea too. Of course, the Wand of Wonder doesn't need any, nor do items that work like that.

As for the ghost touch weapon, it could be that ghosts can seriously treat their weapons as ghost touch for the purpose of stabbing you in the face.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:55 pm

As for the ghost touch weapon, it could be that ghosts can seriously treat their weapons as ghost touch for the purpose of stabbing you in the face.

That is too big a disadvantage for the advantage of merely being able to stab them in the face at all (or without an uncontrolable 50-50 annoyance).

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:48 pm

No, because it means you can hurt them, but they could always hurt you by touching you with the deathly chill of the grave.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:16 am

In fact, I wouldn't use it as a disadvantage because it isn't.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:56 am

So, in exchange for the ability to hurt them, I get to be hurt back by them equally much.

No thanks. I'll go for something that doesn't say "and they can kick your butt".

If hurting ghosts is relevant, they already can influence the material world without being able to stab me in the face.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:22 am

They can stab you in the face. The disadvantage isn't.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:25 am

Not necessarily. Presumably, if I have to have a magic weapon to stab them in the face at all, they need something equivalant.

If its 50-50 (normally), then as you said, its a nondisadvantage. But its not that great an advantage to be able to do it 100%, either.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:33 am

Elennsar wrote:Not necessarily. Presumably, if I have to have a magic weapon to stab them in the face at all, they need something equivalant.

If its 50-50 (normally), then as you said, its a nondisadvantage. But its not that great an advantage to be able to do it 100%, either.

No, they don't. Incorporeal touch.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:35 am

They still have to be able to touch me to begin with.

Since Talisman is not talking about just D&D items, D&D rules on their ability do so don't always apply.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:41 am

Elennsar wrote:They still have to be able to touch me to begin with.

Like that's hard for someone who makes no noise and goes through the walls.

Elennsar wrote:Since Talisman is not talking about just D&D items, D&D rules on their ability do so don't always apply.

Who cares about D&D rules? I care about when a story about a ghost who couldn't affect the living/material in any way (especially hurt) without equipment was told. (If someone happens to have an example, at least say whether you think it's common.)

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:45 am

Being able to pass through walls might be because ghosts are uneffected by physical objects...which doesn't translate as "can effect".

As for a ghost who couldn't effect the living: Plenty of ways to effect the living without stabbing them as a ghost. Some even hurt. But "stab with sword" may or may not require being solid.

I'm not familiar enough with ghosts to generalize, which is why I used "Not necessarily" to begin with. It may be doable without any trouble (and I'm the disadvantaged one), but it isn't required to be the case.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:56 am

Chill touch, domination, telekinesis: they don't care, you do.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:00 am

Clarify that a bit? I think I got about two thirds of the way to understanding.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:03 am

Incorporeal beings worth a crap don't need external help to threaten in most if not all stories. Corporeals seem to do for retributing. So, "making both equal" == just win.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:05 am

True. However, if the ghost can stab me and do the other things (available whether it can stab me or not), I'm just adding to the list of ways it can hurt me.

I'd be better off with a defense than a way to hurt it.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:11 am

Elennsar wrote:True. However, if the ghost can stab me and do the other things (available whether it can stab me or not), I'm just adding to the list of ways it can hurt me.

I'd be better off with a defense than a way to hurt it.

Given that you might not have any way to attack it, that seems weird at best - especially with the fact that incorporeals are seldom concepted as beings that'd be especially more threatening holding weapons (except the poltergeists, who just toss physical objects and thus make the issue moot).

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:18 am

Well, if its a choice between "being able to ignore it entirely" and finding something that would give me the ability to get rid of it that's not "stab with a sword", and "can stab with a sword and make it able to do even more to hurt me in the process.", stabbing a ghost with a sword is not such an advantage that I'd feel better off.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:55 pm

It'll hardly hurt you any more, and it's highly unlikely that you'll find something able to entirely ignore it.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:59 pm

Yeah, ghosts often are able to actually set people on fire, and said people are SOL unless they've got magic help.

Now, you might prefer less of a disadvantage, but anyone with half a brain would like that, but that's not good for game balance.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:12 am

The goal is for it to be something that isn't overly penalizing. Not something that has either no effect (which this doesn't if they can't otherwise stab me in the face) or too little effect or too big an effect.

I don't want to find out that my ghost hunting sword made me more likely to be killed by ghosts rather than less.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:33 am

Elennsar wrote:The goal is for it to be something that isn't overly penalizing. Not something that has either no effect (which this doesn't if they can't otherwise stab me in the face) or too little effect or too big an effect.

I don't want to find out that my ghost hunting sword made me more likely to be killed by ghosts rather than less.

It's called a drawback for a reason.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:35 am

And I'm using the sword for a reason, which means that the overall impact of using the sword to hunt ghosts should be in favor of me beating ghosts and surviving to hunt more ghosts, rather than making me feel that I'd be better off with another sword, even a mundane one, because the drawback is much bigger than the benefit.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:38 am

Except that it isn't, because you don't need the sword for the ghosts to do 1d4 con with a touch attack

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:39 am

Using this sword has multiplied the number of ways you can attack the ghost by INFINITY. The ghost, on the other hand, gains a crappy attack against you.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:42 am

Except that it isn't, because you don't need the sword for the ghosts to do 1d4 con with a touch attack

Using this sword has multiplied the number of ways you can attack the ghost by INFINITY. The ghost, on the other hand, gains a crappy attack against you.

You know, if I meant "D&D ghosts", I'd say so. Why is everyone and their mother in law quoting what D&D ghosts can do?

I can hit a D&D ghost 50-50 without it being a sword that lets me strike ghosts as if they were solid as a specific "this is magic" power.