[Pathfinder] Just to kick a man when he's down.

Mr. Bane · Post by **Mr. Bane** » Sat May 30, 2009 8:53 pm

" Just generate all of the powers from a script. "

That's what Ruby is, a scripting language.

MartinHarper · Post by **MartinHarper** » Sat May 30, 2009 10:39 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why and how does a sorcerer get a spell that completely blankets the city with a teleport/scry blocker spell?

"Cloister" is from a magic item, it seems:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat May 30, 2009 11:48 pm

So it's like in Yu-Gi-Oh, when the protagonist is on the losing end of a card duel with no cards left in his hand and only one on the field... and he miraculously draws a card which lets him and his foe draw cards until their hand has five of them! (this actually happened in an episode, by the way. Graceful Charity I believe)

Totally not a case of inventing new shit on the fly to force the plot you want!

angelfromanotherpin · Sun May 31, 2009 12:10 am

Cloister's existence actually makes a lot of sense. It was researched by Dorukan who used it to ward his dungeon which was designed to protect the plot object. Making it epically difficult to scry on or divine the existence of such an object is a very sensible idea.

And once someone else got their hands on Cloister, why wouldn't they use it on their base of operations?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 31, 2009 12:57 am

And once someone else got their hands on Cloister, why wouldn't they use it on their base of operations?

Because of the difference in size between a metropolis and a tower.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:04 am

Yeah, maybe you didn't see the enormous dungeon complex housing (among other things) a civilization of goblinoids and every defunct monster from previous editions of the game. The tower's just the tip of an iceburg.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:18 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Yeah, maybe you didn't see the enormous dungeon complex housing (among other things) a civilization of goblinoids and every defunct monster from previous editions of the game. The tower's just the tip of an iceburg.

Maybe your sense of scale is completely off, seeing as how in the link MartinHarper provided us we have a bigass castle (that's probably comparable in size to the original tower) that's 20th of the size of the city?

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun May 31, 2009 1:52 am

FrankTrollman wrote:4e is a weird case, because they actually created a format that is really fast to write and uses up incredible amounts of page space to cover basic concepts. In short, it looks to me like a ruleset that was designed by and for freelancers who knew they were going to be paid by the word (or possibly the page).

Not only that but the fact that every class has its own unique power list means that you'll pretty much always have the ability to make a career off nothing but slight modifications to classes and throwing on some bullshit flavor text to make the class seem different.

sake · Post by **sake** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:06 am

angelfromanotherpin wrote:It was researched by Dorukan who used it to ward his dungeon which was designed to protect the plot object.

Oh god don't remind me about that shitty fight from that god damn prequel comic.

Start of Darkness wrote: Dorukan: I am Dorukan, epic Wizard, you soultrapped the hippie elf chick I had the hots for, prepare to die!

Xykon: Not so fast, first you have to listen to my speech about how tiny my penis was- I mean, how I'm such a powerful badass that can brute force my way through any challenge.

Dorukan: What the hell? Are you a Dragon Ball Z villain now?

Xykon: Screw you! My plot armor lets me defeat you by casting nothing but Meteor Storms and Energy Drains.

Dorukan: Huh... funny how I forgot have to any protection against Level Drain even though I started a fight with an undead mage. *dies*

Redcloak: Hey, can we get back to me being a billion times more interesting and better written a villain than Xykon?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:12 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Maybe your sense of scale is completely off, seeing as how in the link MartinHarper provided us we have a bigass castle (that's probably comparable in size to the original tower) that's 20th of the size of the city?

Look the effect is plausible, right? It makes sense that it would exist, right?

So now we're just quibbling about the target area of an epic spell? What the hell?

Maybe the city is bigger than Dorukan's dungeon. I'm not sold given that the dungeon contains rooms large enough to have flying races across, but let's assume that. Even if that's the case, why would we assume that the spell's target area is at maximum the dungeon's size?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:25 am

Maybe the city is bigger than Dorukan's dungeon. I'm not sold given that the dungeon contains rooms large enough to have flying races across, but let's assume that. Even if that's the case, why would we assume that the spell's target area is at maximum the dungeon's size?

It doesn't, but it just goes back to the fact that the author casually disregards the limits of the D&D campaign to move his plot along.

I mean, really, epic level spells on throwaway magic items?

I haven't read Start of Darkness, but that dumbass fight V had with Xykon shouldn't have happened. Meteor Swarm was always a useless pansy spell, even moreso in 3.5E - WHICH THE COMIC SAID IT WAS USING IN THE FIRST ISSUE - but the fact that fire resistance now applies to each attack rather than per-round in 3.5E makes it completely useless against anymore with a fire resistance of 10 or more.

So why exactly would V not have fire resistance spells prepared? Why would he not have effects that protected him from negative energy prepared? They're not even high level, they're bullshit low-level effects. The only reason why V would not have them would be because of plot induced stupidity or (more likely) the author nixed all of those spells off of his list except for those that would artificially make a combat longer. Which... doesn't make any fucking sense, because we've seen two occasions where V buffs Roy the hell up.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sun May 31, 2009 2:48 am

As a side note, Pathfinder makes meteor swarm marginally more useful by only applying fire resistance once against it.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun May 31, 2009 3:01 am

Oh sure. That sort of thing is a given. The OOTS are supposed to be 13th-14th level or something - way out in crazy superhero town. And there are epic casters around, which should break the universe smack in half. And yet the characters are still riding around on horses like they're in Lord of the Rings with a higher FX budget for the casters. Except for that cleric duel.

OOTS doesn't model 3.5, it mimics what most people think 3.5 looks like.

I don't know about the unbuffed thing either. Xykon never Meteor Swarms V, or indeed hits him with anything but Energy Drains prior to the Dispel Hammer, when V clearly laments the destruction of his defenses. I'm not sure what defends a person against Energy Drain except Death Ward, which is a Divine spell, so V wouldn't have had it.

Also, the headband isn't a magic item that casts Cloister. It's the material focus for the spell.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun May 31, 2009 10:49 am

Several different items. That should be standard gear for anyone at that level.

Also, Enervation + Metamagics = better.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:03 pm

Roy wrote:Several different items. That should be standard gear for anyone at that level.

I don't suppose you could actually name any of those items?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:05 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Roy wrote:Several different items. That should be standard gear for anyone at that level.
I don't suppose you could actually name any of those items?

Soulfire armor enhancement. Death Ward armor (and possibly shield). Cast the spell using UMD.

And then there are other options, even in core only like 'get a CE or LG naga to make you a scroll' or 'get a dragon to make you a scroll' since these creatures can cast divine spells as arcane spells, thus you get arcane scrolls of Death Ward which you scribe in your book and cast normally.

That's probably not even all of them.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:13 pm

Roy wrote:Soulfire armor enhancement. Death Ward armor (and possibly shield). Cast the spell using UMD.

So, armors that the Wizard can't wear (neither of which appear in the DMG), and the use of a cross-class skill with a dump stat. Those are some quality options you're describing there, man.

And then there are other options, even in core only like 'get a CE or LG naga to make you a scroll' or 'get a dragon to make you a scroll' since these creatures can cast divine spells as arcane spells, thus you get arcane scrolls of Death Ward which you scribe in your book and cast normally.

Yeah, Naga with crafting feats are totally easy to get ahold of. And absolutely everyone accepts that you can convert divine spells to arcane spells that way.

All of that is before I even mention that Necromancy is one of Vaarsuvius' barred schools.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:41 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Yeah, Naga with crafting feats are totally easy to get ahold of. And absolutely everyone accepts that you can convert divine spells to arcane spells that way.

All of that is before I even mention that Necromancy is one of Vaarsuvius' barred schools.

Correction for the sake of, well, correctness: You don't actually have to find a Naga with a crafting feat - they just have to have the spell, since you're a Wizard and you have Scribe Scroll without even trying (unless you took substitution class features).

SRD, Creating Magic Items wrote:Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

It's still not an option in the best of times for Vaarsuvius due to barred school, and the technique probably isn't in active use in the OotS world.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:01 pm

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:12 pm

Roy wrote:

This cogent and well-reasoned comment is truly an exemplar of Roy's continued valuable contribution to the Den's discussions. Bravo, sir.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:19 pm

???

What the fuck are you guys on? Limited Wish, duh. What goddamn wizard doesn't have this spell in their book and what goddamn wizard doesn't have it on permanent speed dial once they start casting 9th level spells?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:52 pm

Yes, that's a far more reasonable suggestion. There is indeed no good reason (apart from the general build unoptimization that's endemic in the series) for V to not either have Limited Wish or have cribbed it from one of his two remaining melds to defend himself.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:25 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Roy wrote:
This cogent and well-reasoned comment is truly an exemplar of Roy's continued valuable contribution to the Den's discussions. Bravo, sir.

If you'd prefer, I could just write a page or so dedicated to the immense stupidity required to think 1: Wizards can't use armor and shields. 2: Their campaign world is somehow limited to core only despite all sorts of homebrew stuff and STARMETAL. 3: They were actually playing by the rules in the first place. Among many other things.

For fuck's sake, Soulfire is in THE SAME FUCKING BOOK AS STARMETAL. What the fuckity fuck fuck?!

However an eyerolling smiley summarizes your wrongness and Fail much more succinctly. And without carpet F bombing the forums.

Cielingcat · Post by **Cielingcat** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:29 pm

Rich actually had part of the deal be that V couldn't copy any Divine spells via Limited Wish or Wish.

I do agree with Lago about most everything he said though. I honestly am only reading OotS now because I'm invested in seeing how it plays out; a lot of the things in it annoy me, but it still manages to be good enough that I want to see it to the end.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:32 pm

Actually, it appears that V did have energy drain protection (and mind blank), although the soul splices didn't benefit from it (and given the soul splices aren't in the rules anyway ...). All the buffs were dispelled by Superb Dispelling anyway, so after that point it's irrelevant.