Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[ggroy]

[Psychic Robot]

The point buy system should also be tweaked so that it doesn't punish certain character concepts. (What do you mean that orcish shaman don't work?)

[Leress]

with defense stats of AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.

Why have three stats yet four defense stats? Isn't AC and Reflex pretty much the same thing?

[ggroy]

[RandomCasualty2]

The point buy system should also be tweaked so that it doesn't punish certain character concepts. (What do you mean that orcish shaman don't work?)

Yeah, honestly I figure they should just drop the idea of racial stat mods altogether and just set some racial maximums for starting ability scores. So if you really want a 20 in your strength you have to be a half orc or something, but you still have to buy that 20.

[ggroy]

[Heath Robinson]

Yeah, honestly I figure they should just drop the idea of racial stat mods altogether and just set some racial maximums for starting ability scores. So if you really want a 20 in your strength you have to be a half orc or something, but you still have to buy that 20.

I'm far more comfortable with both racial and cultural stat minimums. It is the difference in the upper limit that makes certain races mandatory choices for particular classes, rather than the flat bonus. It doesn't matter how you got 20 strength, it just matters that you actually have that much. Requiring that you drop more from other stats for 20 Strength just means that you have lower stats elsewhere, since maximising your one or two most significant stats is of prime importance, from what I hear.


I kind of want to do this to SR4, now.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I do think that we can tide people over by making Concentrate/Endurance Constitution and calling the influence-line of skills Charisma.



But anyway, Sacred Cows. What do you guys think of the overall idea of implementing old sacred cows to get rid of newer ones? Not necessary? Earlier in this thread I mentioned that 5E should make steps to superficially pander to the Old Skool gamers. Except that a lot of things the Old Skool gamers want are bad for the game--and if you change it around enough you not only lose the marketing benefit of bringing back old stuff but you actually make them angrier.

That said, even though I don't care for the Dark Sun conversion a lot of 4E fans are genuinely excited at the conversion. It's stuff like this that makes me think that this kind of fan appeal can work out.

[Heath Robinson]

But anyway, Sacred Cows. What do you guys think of the overall idea of implementing old sacred cows to get rid of newer ones? Not necessary? Earlier in this thread I mentioned that 5E should make steps to superficially pander to the Old Skool gamers. Except that a lot of things the Old Skool gamers want are bad for the game--and if you change it around enough you not only lose the marketing benefit of bringing back old stuff but you actually make them angrier.

That said, even though I don't care for the Dark Sun conversion a lot of 4E fans are genuinely excited at the conversion. It's stuff like this that makes me think that this kind of fan appeal can work out.

Certain kinds of fans have bought into the franchise in such a manner and can be incited to purchase new material so long as their communities don't consider it too different from what they remember to be the nature of the game. So, you can persuade these people to buy into a game by incorporating old sacred cows to compensate for removing other ones.

However, you have to question what old sacred cows they care about enough that their inclusion will compensate for the slaughter of newer ones, and whether any of the earlier incarnations of that market are still around. You also need to consider competition, of which there is much - aren't there a number of free OD&D emulators around? Pathfinder is absorbing the 3.5E nostalgics as well.

[Koumei]

Just reintroduce THAC0 an all the vets will return no matter what else you do.

[ggroy]

[tzor]

And Wisdom automatically increases as you age*, and thus as you get older, your hearing and vision improve.

Yes it does. And I will stand by that until my dying breath. Just wait until you are older, then you will understand. (So why don’t old people see and hear better than young people? Damage and disease; a concept that is not normally covered under standard role playing game rules. Every loud noise you hear damages your hearing. Diseases slowly attack your vision. Your ability to notice more and more things increases, while at the same time, the information from your eyes and ears is constantly degrading. In a world with cure disease common all that shit goes away, along with arthritis and other crap old folk hate.)

[tzor]

I would be happy enough with four stats:

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Intelligence
• Wisdom

Sure, some folks would be unhappy that Charisma went away, but I think once they realized that it meant that Orcs could be great leaders by taking the "Great Leader" trait without having to suck at hitting people with a greataxe that you'd win over plenty of converts.

Frank, my biggest complaint with your idea, (which simply appears to move the social influence stat to a feat) is that it is arbitrary. Why not use the same argument with intelligence? (Taking the “Super Genius” trait would allow you to be an intelligent person without having to suck at hitting people with a greataxe.) Why not use the same argument with all the stats. (You can even go the Time Lord route where your stats are basically fixed as a result of your race so that all humans have stats of X Y and Z and base all your customization on your skill set.)

[RobbyPants]

And Wisdom automatically increases as you age*, and thus as you get older, your hearing and vision improve.

Yes it does. And I will stand by that until my dying breath. Just wait until you are older, then you will understand. (So why don’t old people see and hear better than young people? Damage and disease; a concept that is not normally covered under standard role playing game rules. Every loud noise you hear damages your hearing. Diseases slowly attack your vision. Your ability to notice more and more things increases, while at the same time, the information from your eyes and ears is constantly degrading. In a world with cure disease common all that shit goes away, along with arthritis and other crap old folk hate.)

I'm pretty sure she was joking.

[CatharzGodfoot]

And Wisdom automatically increases as you age*, and thus as you get older, your hearing and vision improve.

Yes it does. And I will stand by that until my dying breath. Just wait until you are older, then you will understand. (So why don’t old people see and hear better than young people? Damage and disease; a concept that is not normally covered under standard role playing game rules. Every loud noise you hear damages your hearing. Diseases slowly attack your vision. Your ability to notice more and more things increases, while at the same time, the information from your eyes and ears is constantly degrading. In a world with cure disease common all that shit goes away, along with arthritis and other crap old folk hate.)

If only. Actually, age-based hearing loss can occur irrespective of exposure to loud noises or disease. So can loss of optic muscle tone. The eyes can be damaged by sunlight, so good luck curing that.

[Username17]

The answer for why to not drop Intelligence and Wisdom is multipart:

First, Magic in D&D is ridiculously broad and powerful. Maintaining a hard disconnect between half of it and the other half isn't just good for the grognards, it's good for the game.

Second, of all the "NADs" Will is the best. Ref frankly blows, but if it got folded into AC it would be pretty decent. But Willpower is still the one that not only drops you from the fight, but makes you attack your allies as well. Combining it with your "not getting surprised" test (perception) is frankly overpowered. Putting spotting ambushes and seeing through illusions onto a different stat is a good idea. And it's only possible if there are at least two mental stats.

And finally, too much reductionism makes people see the strings and the gears. Part of the purpose of the game is to get people to lose themselves in it. If the rolls become too easy to comprehend, they actually stop being interesting. Deceptively simple only works if the simple is actually deceptive.

---

Constitution doesn't do anything, and Charisma makes you the protagonist. This is a cooperative role playing game, everyone is the fucking protagonist.

-Username17

[tzor]

If only. Actually, age-based hearing loss can occur irrespective of exposure to loud noises or disease. So can loss of optic muscle tone. The eyes can be damaged by sunlight, so good luck curing that.

Blind man sees again after stem cell transplant … but I thought we were talking about magic which cures everything!

[angelfromanotherpin]

… but I thought we were talking about magic which cures everything!

Speaking of...

[CatharzGodfoot]

… but I thought we were talking about magic which cures everything!

Magic doesn't undo aging penalties. The best you can hope for in D&D (in that respect) is hopping into a clone.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Magic doesn't undo aging penalties.

Which is of course stupid because you can't swing a stick without hitting at leat three immortals in heroic fantasy.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Magic doesn't undo aging penalties.

Which is of course stupid because you can't swing a stick without hitting at leat three immortals in heroic fantasy.

Well, you can be immortal and just never take aging penalties. Just hope that you hit monk 20 (or whatever) before middle age.

[Starmaker]

Well, you can be immortal and just never take aging penalties. Just hope that you hit monk 20 (or whatever) before middle age.

And that's why in Tomes immortality seriously grows on trees. It was supposedly a big deal in AD&D with all the ageing effects around and unfortunately 3E left this sacred cow unconscious instead of dead.

[Doom]

… but I thought we were talking about magic which cures everything!

Magic doesn't undo aging penalties. The best you can hope for in D&D (in that respect) is hopping into a clone.

Alternatively, you can elminate the possibility of aging entirely, as in DnD4.0. Aging isn't fun, after all.

Actually, Dungeons and Dragons did have those somewhat scary Potions of Longevity...I reckon those didn't exist in 3E, tho.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Aging isn't fun, after all.

Yeah. That's why they took it out of the game.

I hate 4E as much as anyone but everytime I hear one of the grognards whine about 4E taking out genuine inconveniences to the game as dumbing it down it makes me wonder why they even play games. They should just piss on an electric fence while a prerecording of Gary Gygax's voice tells them how elite and hardcore they are for not taking the easy way out.

[shadzar]

everytime I hear one of the grognards whine about 4E taking out genuine inconveniences to the game as dumbing it down

Explain, or name a few instances?