[4e] Psion Preview

[mean_liar]

I think the larger concern is that in the spell system you have tiered powers that decrease in power and are necessarily more limited in higher-power effects than a psion.

Assuming psionics and spells are roughly equivalent in effect, the result is that psionic novas present an even swingier, unbalanced and unpredictable in-game effect than spellcasting. This increased ability to power-dump is assumed to be a problem by those that don't quite like psionics because of all the things that spells do, psionics has the potential to do even more of.

Personally, I don't think that using the same effect repeatedly is necessarily bad. I also wouldn't call psionics as a system "broken".

That said, I would agree that as a system it presents more potential problematics for a GM and the game than spellcasting, simply based on the ability to nova.

[Kaelik]

PR:

DUDE STEW IS FUCKING BORING BECAUSE YOU"LL BE EATING THE SAME STEW FOR THE NEXT MONTH WHILE I"LL BE EATING LOTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS!

[Psychic Robot]

Because the psion has only one power, amirite?

[Crissa]

...Except the snack-pack guy actually has more food than the stew-pot guy...

Even if they have the same number of options.

-Crissa

[Psychic Robot]

Really missing the point there.

[NineInchNall]

PR:

DUDE STEW IS FUCKING BORING BECAUSE YOU"LL BE EATING THE SAME STEW FOR THE NEXT MONTH WHILE I"LL BE EATING LOTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS!

Then, and I know this will sound totally fucking insane, don't use the same power over and over and over.

You keep saying (as far as I can tell) that

1. Having more fun and adventuring longer are both goals.
2. Using spells from multiple tiers of power is more fun.
3. Using spells from multiple tiers of power allows the character to adventure longer between rests.
4. Doing 2 and 3 will achieve your goals (1).
5. You won't do 4 unless mechanically forced to.

The only thing I can conclude from the above is that you are incapable of goal oriented behavior. Your Sorc vs. Psion comparison is a perfect example of what I mean. You present the Sorc's action pattern as a model for the behavior you desire. Then, with a Psion that has the potential to exactly duplicate the model, you willfully depart from model and in so doing choose to avoid those things that you consider goals.

Further, and this strikes me as totally hilarious, you say that the psion would have to be retarded not to go full power every round ever, while simultaneously saying that going full power every round ever per se is retarded. You really can't have it both ways.


EDIT: Again, I'm not trying to take sides here, just commenting on the arguments I find off kilter.

I think the larger concern is that in the spell system you have tiered powers that decrease in power and are necessarily more limited in higher-power effects than a psion.

Now this is a claim that is reasonable and can actually be tested and demonstrated with math.

[MartinHarper]

Using spells from multiple tiers of power allows the character to adventure longer between rests.

I don't see how this is true. If you want to pace yourself over multiple encounters, you're best off using a max level power in round one and then plinking with a crossbow/whatever, rather than using two mid level powers.

[NineInchNall]

That appears to be the claim. I wasn't commenting on its veracity. *shrug*

[Psychic Robot]

If you want to pace yourself over multiple encounters, you're best off using a max level power in round one and then plinking with a crossbow/whatever, rather than using two mid level powers.

That's...that's the opposite of pacing oneself.

[Kaelik]

1) PR, Is a level 1 power augmented to full PP worse than or equal to a level 5 power (assuming 5 is your current maximum)?

2) No NiN, I don't think it makes adventuring longer to use lesser effects. I think it makes you use more varied effects to have to use lower power levels. There is a reason Versatile Spellcaster is a feat, it's because Sorcerers will pay actual resources to convert lower level slots into higher level slots at a worse conversion ratio than Psion PP.

The issue is that it is more mechanically effective to spam your best power when you can use all your power to do so, unless their is something stopping you.

Sorcerers have something stopping them, and this forces them to use different varied effects.

It is not mechanically optimal for a Psion to use anything less than full augmentation outside of a few very limited circumstances.

The purpose of tiered spell levels is precisely to encourage variety at the expense of what might be optimal.

This is of course based on the following two assumptions.

1) Players will have their characters do what is most powerful.

2) Game Designers who wish to encourage other behaviors, such as variety, should design the game to support that.

[Kaelik]

And yes PR, a single maximum manifestation followed by crossbows is the most conservationist tactic.

Compare your previous example of Energy Ray at 10PP with a 20th level Manifester.

Assuming that Energy Ray at 20 does twice the damage of Energy Ray at 10:

You do 40 damage, then 40 damage, expending 20 PP

The conservation tactic does 80 damage, then 1d8 damage, expending 20pp.

Hey look, more damage per PP.

[NineInchNall]

1) PR, Is a level 1 power augmented to full PP worse than or equal to a level 5 power (assuming 5 is your current maximum)?

Ooh! Ooh! I can answer this one! It depends on the type of power. Some of them (damage powers, I'm looking at you) scale pathetically with augmentation. On the other hand, some of the powers are actually designed appropriately for the augment system. Examples of this sort include psionic charm, which with enough points spent functions as charm monster.

So, yes, there can be powers worth augmenting to 9 pp to use alongside actual 5th level powers.

Then, of course, there are the powers that just auto-scale like spells. Metamorphosis comes to mind.

[Psychic Robot]

And yes PR, a single maximum manifestation followed by crossbows is the most conservationist tactic.

Compare your previous example of Energy Ray at 10PP with a 20th level Manifester.

Assuming that Energy Ray at 20 does twice the damage of Energy Ray at 10:

You do 40 damage, then 40 damage, expending 20 PP

The conservation tactic does 80 damage, then 1d8 damage, expending 20pp.

Hey look, more damage per PP.

Except...no. That's so entirely mind-numbingly wrong that I can't even comprehend how you managed to write that with a straight face. I'm not sure what your definition of "conserve" is, but it must be a different one that mine.

[CatharzGodfoot]

And yes PR, a single maximum manifestation followed by crossbows is the most conservationist tactic.

Compare your previous example of Energy Ray at 10PP with a 20th level Manifester.

Assuming that Energy Ray at 20 does twice the damage of Energy Ray at 10:

You do 40 damage, then 40 damage, expending 20 PP

The conservation tactic does 80 damage, then 1d8 damage, expending 20pp.

Hey look, more damage per PP.

Except...no. That's so entirely mind-numbingly wrong that I can't even comprehend how you managed to write that with a straight face. I'm not sure what your definition of "conserve" is, but it must be a different one that mine.

That's a nice failure to understand arithmetic, PR.

[hogarth]

That said, I would agree that as a system it presents more potential problematics for a GM and the game than spellcasting, simply based on the ability to nova.

I still don't understand what definition of "nova" you're using where:
using 13x 5th level powers = nova
using 10x 4th & 5th level spells != nova

Is 11 the nova threshold? 12? Or is using level (N-1) powers not a nova but level (N) powers is?

And what kind of crazy houserules are people using where psions have exactly one power known?

[Psychic Robot]

That's a nice failure to understand arithmetic, PR.

Fail.

Note that the definition of "conserve" does not include "maximizing damage per round."

I'm still awaiting answers on the following:

1. Why is it bad to allow a player to spam his most powerful ability each round?
2. Why is it bad to allow a player to spam the same ability each round?
3. How is it poor game design to have linear-scaling abilities?
3a. How is it better game design to non-linear scaling abilities?
4. Why is it bad to allow a player to nova?

[sake]

Wow... it's been four pages since anyone has actually talked about 4E psion.

[CatharzGodfoot]

That's a nice failure to understand arithmetic, PR.

Fail.

Note that the definition of "conserve" does not include "maximizing damage per round."

In D&D it does.

I'm still awaiting answers on the following:

1. Why is it bad to allow a player to spam his most powerful ability each round?
2. Why is it bad to allow a player to spam the same ability each round?
3. How is it poor game design to have linear-scaling abilities?
3a. How is it better game design to non-linear scaling abilities?
4. Why is it bad to allow a player to nova?

Why not just give a psion something like 15 spell slots, and have all of her powers automatically max out? Same effect, but without all the useless bookkeeping.

[Psychic Robot]

That doesn't even address anything that I wrote.

[Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp]

If you as a designer want players to use different powers, then you as a designer need to give players incentives to diversify their power choices.

Simply relegating that players only have so many 5th level spells and then requiring them to cast their next spell that is 4th or lower is not an improvement.

[Username17]

That doesn't even address anything that I wrote.

Why would anyone address what you wrote? You still haven't addressed the point that spending one action to pay twice the power points to do twice the damage and then spending future turns spending zero power points and plinking away with a crappy light crossbow is objectively more damage and superior to spending two actions spending half as much each time.

Doing your biggest thing and then pnkng away wth a crossbow is conservation. Conservation of power points is sti using your best power over and over again, it's just using it less often. And since you didn't even pretend to reference the actual mathematics that prove that to be the case, you can fuck al the way off.

-Username17

[Psychic Robot]

...So, does anyone in here have an actual argument as to why psionics are bad, or is it just "I don't like it"?

[NineInchNall]

Doing your biggest thing and then pnkng away wth a crossbow is conservation.

Which is basically how you play an Egoist or Telepath. I have no fucking clue how the other disciplines are supposed to function in any way approaching nominal efficiency.

[Crissa]

It isn't psionics that is bad, but the PP system which allows you to fire off the same ability until you are out of power.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

Doing your biggest thing and then pnkng away wth a crossbow is conservation.

Which is basically how you play an Egoist or Telepath. I have no fucking clue how the other disciplines are supposed to function in any way approaching nominal efficiency.

Well as pointed out, a Psychokinest need merely calculate exactly how many power points he needs for each fight, then blow exactly that many as fast as possible before plinking with a crossbow.