Your torment is delicious.

[Kobajagrande]

PROTIP: When you replace something, the original thing isn't produced anymore. Yes the cows we have right now are going to have to die for us to replace them. You know what? They were going to die anyway. You know what we could do with the ones we have now? We could eat them like we would anyway.

So you're talking about decades now. The original argument is STOP BEING CRUEL TO ANIMALS RIGHT NOW!

I'd like to think that at least some of the stuff I said got through so you changed some of the oppinion, but I know that's hardly the case. Probably, you're just changing goalposts as we go, right?

You may now return to your scheduled closing you ears and lalalaing.

EDIT: Also, subsidies.

[Crissa]

I checked tonight (brave me) and a cheeseburger at In and Out costs $2.10 here. $1.80 for a hamburger. My balanced meal there (with extra lettuce, extra tomato!) came out as $5.

-Crissa

[Orca]

Orca, the undisputed fact is that you would need more space. Much, much more space.

I dispute this. There is certainly land which is most effectively used for some kinds of animal husbandry (e.g. NZ's hill country), but most agricultural land will produce much more food if used for horticulture.

Also, since you pretty much changed the flora of a place, you destroyed a local ecosystem. Not that you/Crissa care, right? Also, since you are probably clearing large parts of hillsides/forests (gotta use all the avaliable space, after all), you increase the potential damage from floods/heavy rainfalls.

WTF? Look, NZ's worst floods have happened when too much land was cleared - for cattle farms, usually. e.g. Cyclone Bola up near Gisborne. I've heard similar things have happened in other countries also. And where do you get the idea that a cattle farm is any sort of natural ecosystem? Or that it's unfertilised - they suck up huge amounts of nitrate-based fertiliser.

Also, you would probably need to use GM seed. Fuck all those organic stuff. We need quantities. However, GM seeds have one catch. Where once you planted several dozens different sorts of the same plant, now you plant only one. In case some disease manages to infect the GM plants, it will spread much more quickly and widely. It is quite literally putting all your eggs in one basket, and you know the basket will one day fall on the ground.

I know the green parties hate GM, but monocultures are hardly unique to GM, and even if you ban GM, there really still are lots of people producing non-GM seeds. Which don't have to be used for organic food production, most agriculture is neither GM nor organic. Maybe it's one or the other in America, I dunno.

Only, lets be realistic, money has to come from somewhere. Government gets money from taxes. Increased taxes mean less money for everyone else. It means less savings, less investments, higher interest rates, lower economic growth, higher unemployment. And again, we are talking on a large scale.

Bet you didn't think about all that, right?

Wrong. There are costs to any change in the pattern of food consumption, but there are also opportunities. It's up to the farmers to adjust to changes in consumer demand, not vice versa.

[Orca]

So you're talking about decades now. The original argument is STOP BEING CRUEL TO ANIMALS RIGHT NOW!

I'd like to think that at least some of the stuff I said got through so you changed some of the oppinion, but I know that's hardly the case. Probably, you're just changing goalposts as we go, right?

You may now return to your scheduled closing you ears and lalalaing.

EDIT: Also, subsidies.

I'm not part of some hive-mind opposing you. My opinion is that that cutting the amount of meat eaten in western societies would have direct health and environmental benefits (+lessening animal suffering, yes), and might help indirectly if it influenced the ambitions of non-western societies which see "eating meat=wealthy". I think the only way to achieve this is via convincing people, I don't see regulation as helpful. Particularly not the instant, absolute regulation you seem to imagine.

That's not changing goal posts, I just maybe didn't lay it all out in my first post about this. It may not match exactly with Crissa and/or Ceilingcat - no hive-mind, remember?

[Murtak]

You missed a step. How the fuck is that evil? They are property that would literally never exist at all if I didn't want to eat them.

By that reasoning torturing your own babies is fine - after all they would not exist without you.

Why is it evil to treat food like food? If you want to argue that needlessly doing those things is evil, I would at least respect your argument. But instead you argue that doing those things at all is automatically evil, even though they are done for obvious purposes.

But it is needless. You can totally let animals live a decent life before killing them. The only reason not to do is greed.

(no, you do not need animal flesh. Plenty of vegans and even fruitarians do just fine)

I also don't need to live in an air conditioned house with more than 20x20ft of space. But it is clearly better for me to do so. Likewise it is healthier for me to have access to meat, and be able to live life as a buff frisbee player on a college team than it is to not have access to those possibilities because I arbitrarily confine myself from eating meat.

Bullshit. You can get plenty of protein from veggies. But even going for the optimum diet will have you eat meat perhaps twice per month. What you are doing is less healthy than eating more veggies would be. And the meat you eat is less healthy than the meat from decently treated animals. Oh, and in the process of creating your cheap cheap meat you poison the earth the animals were raised on, the water supply and you raise bacteria immune to the antibiotics they were treated with.

I wouldn't even be surprised if factory meat was more expensive than "green meat" once you add in the cost for clearing up the mess.

Seriously, build a fucking super plant taco, I've been waiting for fucking ten years for a single meal that can provide all the right vitamins and appropriate proportions of protein/carbs/fat/ect.

I can go to a local supermarket and buy my animal-free protein right there. In fact I did so last Friday and this morning I ate some delicious faux meatballs.

The part where it takes fucking like 30 fucking hours of work to make one of them is the reason we don't fucking have one, and vegetarians are confined to rich people with lots of free time.

My sister is a fucking vegan and she manages sustaining that on part-time student jobs. As a vegetarian it is even simpler. Eat eggs (from decently treated hens). Done. Fuck, that was difficult.

[erik]

You missed a step. How the fuck is that evil? They are property that would literally never exist at all if I didn't want to eat them.

By that reasoning torturing your own babies is fine - after all they would not exist without you.

Skipped a step there.

Note that part of his statement was "They are property". Tsk tsk.

You first have to rebut the "animals are merely property" assertion before you can make the connection to Kaelik not-so-secretly wanting to kill babies. I like some animals and all, but I'd not value them as a fellow sentient creature. Seems like a tough sell on the baby-killer argument and I can't imagine it being worth anyone's time. Cost, efficiency and health arguments for changing how food is processed and dealt with are much more objective and serviceable grounds for contention (as you did in the rest of your post).

[shadzar]

You first have to rebut the "animals are merely property" assertion

Good luck with that int he US, people are still primarily considered property by any business and the government. Acceptable losses, etc.

Life has little to no meaning in the US, no matter what the species is. If it is something you want you take it, something in the way you remove it, without regards for anything other than yourself.

[Murtak]

You missed a step. How the fuck is that evil? They are property that would literally never exist at all if I didn't want to eat them.

By that reasoning torturing your own babies is fine - after all they would not exist without you.

Skipped a step there. Note that part of his statement was "They are property".

And that part is bullshit. Animals have senses, animals have feelings, animals can feel joy and pain. You can not possibly equate a horse, dog, cow or cat to a car or hairdryer. Mistreating your dog is not the same thing as throwing your alarm clock against the wall every morning. And if Kaelik really thinks it is ok to torture hundreds of cows just to get his low quality meat even cheaper that qualifies as evil to me. And dumb, for that matter.

But I am not assuming that, so I just did not address that point. I sincerely hope I was right in doing so.

[Kaelik]

By that reasoning torturing your own babies is fine - after all they would not exist without you.

...

And that part is bullshit. Animals have senses, animals have feelings, animals can feel joy and pain. You can not possibly equate a horse, dog, cow or cat to a car or hairdryer. Mistreating your dog is not the same thing as throwing your alarm clock against the wall every morning. And if Kaelik really thinks it is ok to torture hundreds of cows just to get his low quality meat even cheaper that qualifies as evil to me. And dumb, for that matter.

But I am not assuming that, so I just did not address that point. I sincerely hope I was right in doing so.

Once again, you are skipping steps. What part of "can feel joy and pain" automatically makes causing suffering evil? How do you feel about ants? Are you just going to deny that ants can feel pain and joy? Or are you going say that it's wrong to kill ants, and doing so is also evil? We do that for stupid reasons like comfort, which is exactly the same as killing animals for food, it's comfort.

What automatically makes "able to feel pain" the sole qualifier of worth? Why is it evil to not care about whether or not ants or cows feel pain?

Why do you think that having a specific neural system that exists to encourage you to avoid certain actions is so fucking important? Since Plants have a "neural" system determine the direction of sunlight and lean towards it, does that mean that getting in between the sun and a plant is a moral wrong that makes you evil?

But it is needless. You can totally let animals live a decent life before killing them. The only reason not to do is greed.

Actually 1) I can't let them live a decent life, I have no control over it. 2) Why should I give a fuck about whether they live a decent life? If I gain even a tiny little bit from killing an ant, I will do so. If I gain even a tiny little bit from shoving a cow in tight quarters, I will do so.

Bullshit. You can get plenty of protein from veggies. But even going for the optimum diet will have you eat meat perhaps twice per month. What you are doing is less healthy than eating more veggies would be. And the meat you eat is less healthy than the meat from decently treated animals. Oh, and in the process of creating your cheap cheap meat you poison the earth the animals were raised on, the water supply and you raise bacteria immune to the antibiotics they were treated with.

1) You don't know what I eat, so you can just shut right up about how much healthier I'd be if I ate less meat.
2) What part of "buff" did you not understand. In order to maintain my current Physique and build muscle, I must eat complete proteins after every workout, and more often than that really. If I don't get those, then I lose muscle. Period. Therefore, I do in fact need to either a) eat some fucking animals or b) memorize what amino acids are in each possible vegetable in what proportions and then construct combination meals at odd proportions to make certain that I get enough. Oh yeah, and run a lot more, because I would then be taking in way more carbohydrates per meal than I can eating meat.

That literally would deprive me of 2 hours every day for the rest of my life.

I can go to a local supermarket and buy my animal-free protein right there. In fact I did so last Friday and this morning I ate some delicious faux meatballs.

I think you are confused. I didn't ask for fake protein. I asked for a fucking meal. Make a fucking meal, and if you make it with no animal flesh, but with complete proteins, and correct proportions, it will be easier for me to eat that than personally constructed meals, and so I will. If you want to change people's actions, why not give them a reason, instead of just yelling at them for no reason about how ants have souls.

My sister is a fucking vegan and she manages sustaining that on part-time student jobs. As a vegetarian it is even simpler. Eat eggs (from decently treated hens). Done. Fuck, that was difficult.

Great. How much can your sister bench press? Once again. See, "buff."

And then you have to be stupid. "Eat eggs (from decently treated hens)" how is that different from "Eat beef (from decently treated cows)"

The point is that I'm not going to waste my time and money in order to research every fucking egg company, and then figure out were every restaurant buys their eggs, and then spend more money buying "good eggs" because I don't care about fucking chickens. You want to argue based on "health" 1) Learn something about health. 2) Don't randomly insert stupid "it's evil to hurt animals" shit in the middle. You want to argue morals, go back and meet your burden in proving that I should give a fuck about causing pain.

In the mean time, instead of eating eggs from decently treated hens, I will eat horribly treated cows/pigs/chickens/fish, and eggs from horribly treated hens. And just generally whatever is healthiest and easiest for me.

I do not fucking care about your fucking chickens. I care about the meal that I am eating, and none of that other shit.

[Kobajagrande]

I'm not part of some hive-mind opposing you.

OK, since you seem to think everything I say is addressed to you, here, this part will be directed to you:

You are lacking basic reading comprehension. In your two posts you have displayed such ignorance ranging from "no, because I said so" over "I'll dispute what you're saying by confirming what you're saying'' to "I'll dispute what you're saying by utterly ignoring what you said in a paragraph right above the one I'm quoting''.

And to make things worse, you fucking think everyone, in the entire world, watches what the US eats and eats according to them. That's so utterly stupid I'm left speechless.

Seriously, by this point, nothing you say anymore has any importance, because you've just displayed you are incapable of doing so.

[Murtak]

How do you feel about ants? Are you just going to deny that ants can feel pain and joy? Or are you going say that it's wrong to kill ants is also evil.

I would vastly prefer to not have to kill any ants ever. I generally take care to not step on any. But I am sure I have killed hundreds of ants. And I will kill more. That doesn't mean it's ok to kill them. And it certainly does not make it ok to kill them for sport or to save a couple of cents.

Why do you think that having a specific neural system that exists to encourage you to avoid certain actions is so fucking important? Since Plants have a "neural" system determine the direction of sunlight and lean towards it, does that mean that getting in between the sun and a plant is a moral wrong that makes you evil?

Get back to me when science understands plants better. Until then, I will prefer eating plants to animals. Mind you, if I could live a decent life not even killing plants I would do it.

Actually 1) I can't let them live a decent life, I have no control over it.

Sure. Buy non-factory meat wherever possible. Where it's not possible skip the meat every now and then. Mention to your restaurant of choice, your local supermarket, your friends, how you would totally buy meat from "happy animals".

2) Why should I give a fuck about whether they live a decent life? If I gain even a tiny little bit from killing an ant, I will do so. If I gain even a tiny little bit from shoving a cow in tight quarters, I will do so.

Isn't that the whole definition of evil? To not care about the pain of others if you gain anything from it?

1) You don't know what I eat, so you can just shut right up about how much healthier I'd be if I ate less meat.

If you eat factory meat, eating the same amount fo non-factory meat is going to be healthier. Period.

2) What part of "buff" did you not understand. In order to maintain my current Physique and build muscle, I must eat complete proteins after every workout, and more often than that really. If I don't get those, then I lose muscle. Period.

Yeah, yeah, I get it, you are Arnold fucking Schwarzenegger. Color me impressed with your amazing physique and get on with it.

Therefore, I do in fact need to either a) eat some fucking animals

I never told you to stop eating animals. I told you to stop torturing them.

or b) memorize what amino acids are in each possible vegetable in what proportions and then construct combination meals at odd proportions to make certain that I get enough. Oh yeah, and run a lot more, because I would then be taking in way more carbohydrates per meal than I can eating meat.

And I'm telling you people have already done that work and sell the finished product in prepackaged chunks which are even more convenient than meat because they spoil less easily.

I can go to a local supermarket and buy my animal-free protein right there. In fact I did so last Friday and this morning I ate some delicious faux meatballs.

I think you are confused. I didn't ask for fake protein. I asked for a fucking meal. Make a fucking meal, and if you make it with no animal flesh, but with complete proteins, and correct proportions, it will be easier for me to eat that than personally constructed meals, and so I will.

So if there are pre-packaged non-animals meals in the supermarket, cheaper than your existing meals which are better for you than hand-picked meals you woudl totally eat them? What kind of bullshit argument is that? What I can give you is the amount of fat, protein and carbohydrates in what's in my kitchen right now.

I have a fake roast with 25g of protein, 5g of carbohydrates and 17g of fat (per 100g). The meatballs weigh in at 18g/19g/18g. From what I can gather online the roast doesn't compare too badly to lean beef (2g/0g/22g) or chicken drums (11g/0g/18g). I have no clue whether there is anything without any carbohydrates at all, but 5% doesn't seem too bad to me. As for makign a whole meal, take some of that roast, put it in a pan, optionally add a few drops of olive oil, heat for a whopping 3 minutes with some peppers, serve with a small salad and some brown rice. I can get all of this in my local supermarket and making the whole meal takes less than 10 minutes, including chopping my veggies (unless I ran out of previously cooked rice).

My sister is a fucking vegan and she manages sustaining that on part-time student jobs. As a vegetarian it is even simpler. Eat eggs (from decently treated hens). Done. Fuck, that was difficult.

Great. How much can your sister bench press? Once again. See, "buff."

Your argument was "only the rich can afford to live as a vegetarian". That is bullshit. And clearly you realize is, which is why you change your argument.

The point is that I'm not going to waste my time and money in order to research every fucking egg company

Don't you have any local farmers left? Failing that, does the US have any controlled labels like the EU "BIO"-sign? It's not nearly enough, but at least that's a start.

Do you also want me to find a fishing boat that doesn't drag them onto the boat flapping and dieing slowly in a giant net before I eat fish? Fuck you. I like fish.

Are you too fucking dumb to keep a single sentence in your head for more than a couple of minutes? What part of "let them live a decent life before you kill them" is too hard to understand? Yes, they probably die horribly and that stinks. But the same happens when a shark eats them. Until this moment let them have their life. That is all I am asking. You on the other hand have repeatedly said you will happily torture an animal for years if you stand to gain a single penny from that suffering. How the fuck is that not evil?

[Kaelik]

I would vastly prefer to not have to kill any ants ever. I generally take care to not step on any. But I am sure I have killed hundreds of ants. And I will kill more. That doesn't mean it's ok to kill them. And it certainly does not make it ok to kill them for sport or to save a couple of cents.

...

Get back to me when science understands plants better. Until then, I will prefer eating plants to animals. Mind you, if I could live a decent life not even killing plants I would do it.

So long story short. You are motherfucking crazy, and not even worth talking to.

Isn't that the whole definition of evil? To not care about the pain of others if you gain anything from it?

No. The definitions of note for this are:

1) "Morally bad or wrong; wicked:"
2) "Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful:" IE, Everyone is made of pure evil because it impossible to perform any action without causing harm to something.
3) "Characterized by anger or spite; malicious:"

Since I am not doing this, it means that I am seriously exactly as equal to you by any definition. So tough shit. If you cause the farmer to lose one cent, you are in fact committing evil, that is, based on the definitions here, exactly as evil as torturing a cow.

So tough shit, no, hurting cows is not evil. Mercilessly torturing cows because you enjoy the screams of pain is not any more or less evil than drafting legislation to prevent cows abuse.

If you eat factory meat, eating the same amount fo non-factory meat is going to be healthier. Period.

False. Period.

Yeah, yeah, I get it, you are Arnold fucking Schwarzenegger. Color me impressed with your amazing physique and get on with it.

Sure, just dismiss my quality of life as totally unimportant to you. Fuck you. You are telling me that I have to care about the quality of life of fucking ants asshole, suck a nut, my quality of life is way fucking more important. The fact that you don't appreciate the part where doing what you suggest would make my life much much worse doesn't change the fact that it does.

I never told you to stop eating animals. I told you to stop torturing them.

Actually, you told me to eat meat like twice a month. Which means you told me not to eat meat on 26 days a month. Meanwhile, I demonstrated that to maintain my quality of life, I need to eat meat on those 26 days you told me not to.

And I'm telling you people have already done that work and sell the finished product in prepackaged chunks which are even more convenient than meat because they spoil less easily.

And I'm telling you they haven't and don't.

So if there are pre-packaged non-animals meals in the supermarket, cheaper than your existing meals which are better for you than hand-picked meals you woudl totally eat them? What kind of bullshit argument is that? What I can give you is the amount of fat, protein and carbohydrates in what's in my kitchen right now.

If you want me to take a different action than I am taking now, you need to make it more convent. Since these things currently do not exist anywhere that I go, I am not going to perform some other action that is worse than is harder for me and results in a lower quality of life.

Your argument was "only the rich can afford to live as a vegetarian". That is bullshit. And clearly you realize is, which is why you change your argument.

Well you don't ever actually say anything that makes sense, just make arbitrary imperatives that have nothing to do with the discussion, and call shit evil, so it's hard to keep track. Fine. Only Rich people can afford to be vegetarians. Counter example: A rich person who is a vegetarian. How was that supposed to help? She lives in the fucking EU and has two jobs, and has student advantages. She is not fucking poor.

Don't you have any local farmers left? Failing that, does the US have any controlled labels like the EU "BIO"-sign? It's not nearly enough, but at least that's a start.

Once again. Buying more expensive eggs and having to research what labels might or might not exist for the sole purpose of getting exactly identical eggs serves what purpose again? Eggs from tortured chickens are exactly like eggs from not tortured chickens.

Are you too fucking dumb to keep a single sentence in your head for more than a couple of minutes? What part of "let them live a decent life before you kill them" is too hard to understand? Yes, they probably die horribly and that stinks. But the same happens when a shark eats them. Until this moment let them have their life. That is all I am asking. You on the other hand have repeatedly said you will happily torture an animal for years if you stand to gain a single penny from that suffering. How the fuck is that not evil?

So what, you don't think it hurts animals to kill them? WTF. So once again, if you develop a way of killing people with no pain, you can just kill them whenever you want? Because killing things is okay, as long as they don't feel bad before you start killing them? By your logic I can eat fucking babies, because you consider cows equally as important as humans, and you can kill and eat them, as long as you don't confine them before hand.

WTF!

That is not evil, because animals don't matter. There is no reason to avoid causing animals pain at all. Not a single one. If you want to claim that causing animals pain is evil, then fucking tell me the fuck why causing pain is evil!

[Murtak]

That is not evil, because animals don't matter. There is no reason to avoid causing animals pain at all. Not a single one. If you want to claim that causing animals pain is evil, then fucking tell me the fuck why causing pain is evil!

I think that is as far as I am willing to talk to you. Welcome to ignore. I am going to have to find out how to remove Elensar and Shadzar, because I sure as hell don't want them on the same list as you.

[shadzar]

http://www.tgdmb.com/ignore.php takes you to your ignore list for whatever reason you need it.

Maybe Z needs to add a link in the menu at the top for it and those that don't know how to get to it.

[Kaelik]

That is not evil, because animals don't matter. There is no reason to avoid causing animals pain at all. Not a single one. If you want to claim that causing animals pain is evil, then fucking tell me the fuck why causing pain is evil!

I think that is as far as I am willing to talk to you. Welcome to ignore. I am going to have to find out how to remove Elensar and Shadzar, because I sure as hell don't want them on the same list as you.

Wait, so you are now putting me on ignore because you have discovered that I think it's okay to harm animals? Really? Like that wasn't obvious from the fact that I eat meat?

And so you take two other people who are also okay with harming animals, as evidenced by them being meat eaters off of ignore so that they won't be associated with someone who thinks it's okay to harm animals?

I was attempting to determine if you had just never considered why you believe pain to be immoral, and what pain exactly is, or if you are too stupid to actually be able to consider that any other perspective might exist.

But... Well, you answered that question pretty resoundingly when it took you 5 pages to figure out that people who enjoy meat do not think it is evil to harm cows.

[TOZ]

I think that is as far as I am willing to talk to you. Welcome to ignore. I am going to have to find out how to remove Elensar and Shadzar, because I sure as hell don't want them on the same list as you.

Um, wat?

You're worried about having two people you'll likely never meet being on a meaningless list on a internet messageboard with another person you won't meet either? For a single reason completely unrelated to why you put the other two on ignore?

While you're at it, put me on there, since I eat meat too and am unashamed about it.

[ubernoob]

I also eat meat. It is delicious.

[Crissa]

Actually, the original argument was that Americans are hypocrites about other people torturing animals for taste, since they torture them without a taste or nutrient benefit.

Don't be an ass, TOZ, I just ate a burger yesterday, for instance. Sheesh.

-Crissa

[Utterfail]

I just prepared my turkey for tommorrow. Also, this thread pretty closely parallels a discssion (which devolved into whargaaarble) between my friends about if it was evil (DnD alignment) to use poisons. It's pretty hilarious.

[TOZ]

Don't be an ass, TOZ
-Crissa

I'm pretty sure that's impossible.

But seriously, I don't understand what the point of 'omg im ignoring you, but yur so worst than these guys I dun want u on the same list as dem' is. He doesn't want to listen to Kaelik, fine, put him on ignore. Trying some 'you're worse than shadzar' crap to make him feel bad is fucking pointless.

Edit: Reviewing his post, I was wrong about why he was ignoring him. So, TL;DR Shut up about who you're Ignoring.

[Kaelik]

Actually, the original argument was that Americans are hypocrites about other people torturing animals for taste, since they torture them without a taste or nutrient benefit.

Don't be an ass, TOZ, I just ate a burger yesterday, for instance. Sheesh.

-Crissa

That may be your argument, but that is not Murtaks argument.

The reason Murtak put me on ignore is very specifically because I do not think it is evil to cause pain to animals.

Since you also ate some meat, I'm going to assume that slitting a cows neck and let the blood drain out, then making that cow into a burger is the sort of thing that you would be okay with. IE you also do not think it is evil to cause pain to cows.

So for Murtak to be even a little bit logically consistent, he would have to put you on ignore as well. Also, pretty much every single gaming den poster, since all of us appear to find it not evil to cause pain to cows.

[Murtak]

But seriously, I don't understand what the point of 'omg im ignoring you, but yur so worst than these guys I dun want u on the same list as dem' is. He doesn't want to listen to Kaelik, fine, put him on ignore. Trying some 'you're worse than shadzar' crap to make him feel bad is fucking pointless.

Edit: Reviewing his post, I was wrong about why he was ignoring him. So, TL;DR Shut up about who you're Ignoring.

You are right. Looking back that was silly. At the time I wrote it I was genuinely shocked. I am going to clarify my stance once again, just in case anyone is interested.

I believe causing someone else to suffer is a bad thing. So is killing them. That does not mean I condemn eating animals. Many things are bad. Animals get killed or wounded or sick in the wild too. And of course I do value my own quality of life. But I do believe we should minimize the suffering we cause. How much work or money we are willing to expend to help others (be they humans or animals, friends or strangers) obviously varies from person to person. And that is fine. But what is not ok is to say "I don't care how many animals suffer how badly for how long - if it saves me a single cent, a single second or it amuses me I will do it".

And that's basically my point. I don't mind if people value animals less than human. Heck, I do that myself. I do mind it when they do not value them at all.

[Crissa]

I do not think it is evil to cause pain to animals.

I suppose we can't argue that point. Your ethics are yours.

-Crissa

[Kaelik]

I do not think it is evil to cause pain to animals.

I suppose we can't argue that point. Your ethics are yours.

-Crissa

Actually, you totally can argue it. And the point I was trying to get to is to find out what the reason for believing that causing pain to animals is evil is.

I can of course give a very clear reason why it is not, because, and here's the important part.

Things being evil or not is not an axiom to me, or anyone else with a well thought system of ethics. It is a conclusion.

Apparently, the same is not true for Murtak, but I would have liked to have been wrong on that account.

[Judging__Eagle]

Everyone here who has said anything about meat being good is patently lying.

Meat isn't really good, fuck, it's not usually very healthy either.

It also has less protein by mass than plants we can eat and grow.

Seriously, hemp hearts have more protein by mass, and immediately absorbable to boot, than any meat does. Hemp Hearts clock in at 30-ish percent protein (35.something% to be accurate). Plus, you know, having more omega-6 than... well... anything. >_> [link; my family has been buying this brand of hemp hearts for.... a while, going on 3 years now].

Soy, soy is 36% wiki link

While meat, heh. meat.

Seriously think of how much every motherfucker and their mom harps about how meat is good "for the protein".

How does Meat compare to beans and seeds?




The most that meat tends to reach is under 30%; and that's lamb. Everything else is around 20% of total mass being protein. [MEAT!].



Here's the thing:

When it comes down to it, meat is delishiuss. From fish to pork (but not too much, pork can be a bitch to digest); or horse and cow; it's all tasty, tasty muscle, organs, blood and then spices and fixin's thrown in for good measure.

I love the taste of meat. I prefer my steaks to be raw and bloody; and feel that a lot of the flavour and nature of the cow is lost when you cook the meat so that it becomes solid, or worse... shrinks.

I love to crunch the bones of poultry, and cracking open shellfish to get at the cooked white muscles inside. Heck, I don't even mind eating meat raw if I know that it's safe, or I'll just sear it on a frying pan to be safe.

I have absolutely no issues with eating dog, horse, pig, crab, lobster, squid, mollusks, smoked or preserved meat. Hell, eating a squirming fish that has its fillets tastefully arranged to form a sculpture is something that interests me.

I'll eat them, and only flavour or poor cooking will make me not want to eat that serving.

But, to be completely honest, as much as I love the taste of meat, I've reached the point where I can't eat meat for two different meals in two different days. If I eat more than a certain amount of meat, I get ill and dread the sight, smell and appearance of it. I crave fruit, vegetables, grains, sugars, dairy; anything except for meat.

One thing that I do limit myself on is any kind of jerky, and I hardly ever eat smoked meat or sausages. Jerky is far too salty, and sausages have shitpiles of preservatives, plus smoked anything is hell on your body, and I can feel it after eating too much smoked or cured beef or pork.


To be fair, I won't eat stuff that I know is endangered or at risk of extinction. The idea of monkey, chimpanzee, gorilla, tiger, panda or polar bear steaks... well, it does make me feel a bit sad. Sad enough that I would be very upset at anyone who could actually offer up such a meal. Some things just go beyond decadence and hedonism, abetting the murder of a species is one of them.

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srsly though, hemp hearts are 1/2 oil, we could grow them, press them, and burn it as fuel.

the ridiculous state that Canada is in about Cannabis is retarded, and in the US it's doubly retarded, I mean, holy shit, the 1st two copies of Declaration of Independence were printed on hemp paper.

the fact that in it's natural fibres make clothing that will last the rest of your life is probably why we don't use, and use cheaper, breakable cotton instead.

the fact that you can manufacture stuff with other materials means that people won't use it to make anything from cellophane to explosives, plastics or paper.

oh, and hemp paper is archival grade paper, the shit won't yellow, age, crack or rot as easily as wood pulp paper would.

we could seriously save forests by using hemp paper.

this stuff is just so crazy.