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TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

老子 wrote:If only that meant shit. But if you model a bullet hitting a body as an elastic collision (for simplicity) then you will see that the actual work exerted, and hence the damage done, by the bullet will be the same in the original situation and when we reduce its mass by 5/6th assuming its momentum is conserved. Edit: *elastic
Man, I'd love to see you have an epileptic fit over something *really* important... like how you take your coffee.

We're talking about a game that has elves and vampires and dragons and magic that routinely violates fundamental laws of physics.

Let me reiterate...

We're talking about a GAME.

I'm about to just label you as a troll and move on with my life. Nobody is this obtuse without it being intentional or having a really bad case of Asperger's or something.
Last edited by TheFlatline on Sun May 30, 2010 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

老子 wrote:I mean seriously, why are you babbling nonsense when you could say "it reduces the mass of things by 5/6ths."
You couldn't eliminate mass, only convert it into energy. Your argument is a fail on multiple levels.

Now you're the one who isn't making any sense, using your hyper "everything must follow the laws of physics" argument.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa »

Well, 'it's a game' is usually a terrible argument. 'Why are coins floating in mid-air?' isn't something you'd accept in Shadowrun with 'it's a game'.

But as long as it fits the genre...

-Crissa
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Post by TheFlatline »

Crissa wrote:Well, 'it's a game' is usually a terrible argument. 'Why are coins floating in mid-air?' isn't something you'd accept in Shadowrun with 'it's a game'.

But as long as it fits the genre...

-Crissa
I'm not saying "It's a game" justifies the Movement power. I'm saying "it's just a game" is a perfectly good argument against getting your nipples in a twist over a power that has been explained in half a dozen different ways, including "you're already suspending your sense of belief by playing an elf who can conjure fire by concentrating real hard".
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa »

And I'm saying not to get too simplistic with the arguments.

Certainly at least we gave a half dozen examples of 'but why'.\, you're right, but it's too easy to slip into douchenozzle mode.

-Crissa
TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

Crissa wrote:And I'm saying not to get too simplistic with the arguments.

Certainly at least we gave a half dozen examples of 'but why'.\, you're right, but it's too easy to slip into douchenozzle mode.

-Crissa
Two points for using "douchenozzle" instead of "douchebag".

And you can't accuse anyone in this thread of not trying to explain our points of view. I'd say that anyone who gets frustrated took the high road first.
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Murtak
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Post by Murtak »

"It's a game", "it's magic" or "it's a story" is not sufficient to violate the internal logic of your game or story. It's plenty to violate real life physics. In the world of Shadowrun, certain spirits can make stuff move faster in a weird way. As long as this mechanic is consistently applied and supported in fluff all is fine. Shadowrun has movement-supported supertankers and VTOLs, you do not get pilot roll penalties for being under the effects of movements, in short, the internal logic of the world works.

That the movement power does not necessarily violate physics as we understand them is just icing on the cake.
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Post by Username17 »

kzt wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Use of the Movement power does not make things impact any harder or fall apart from stress or become impossible to control. Primarily a balance issue with speeding up weaponry (and I include ramming people with drone cars as "weaponry"), but also to prevent arguments about what the fastest speed a garbage truck could handle if hypothetically it gained a whole lot of velocity without actually heating the engine any hotter.
What's odd is that the SR2 version of movement didn't work that way. It was noted as being able to cause the target to crash or take damage due to forcing it to perform maneuvers at unsafe speed. This was the version on Predator and Prey, not sure what was in the core SR2 book as I never got that, but the P&P notes said they replaced the core powers if there was conflict.
I'm pretty sure Predator and Prey was 3rd edition. Yeah, 3rd Edition movement was incredibly weird. They put in an attempt to "fix" Movement by having it involve die rolls that sped up or slowed down vehicles by multiples of the vehicle's Acceleration value. It was supposed to make the Movemented Tankers go away, which of course it did not do. Like at all.

Since you were going to be accelerating normally with a tanker while using movement on it, and the rolls were pretty easy, it actually just took some number of seconds to achieve full super speed on any vehicle going point to point through the air or water - meaning that the "nerf" wouldn't really be noticed by industrial movement magic at all.

On the flip side, since it was based on the acceleration value of the vehicle and the number of hits, and not on the current speed, the "nerfed" value of Movement could be used to telekinetically hurl parked cars into store fronts. Like, with Force 2 Spirits.

The SR3 Movement "nerf" was actually so bizarrely overpowered that when SR4 came around, everyone pretended it had never happened.

-Username17
kzt
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Post by kzt »

P&P refers to SRII core and Grimoire II pages. It came out in 1998, like SR3, but it's SR2. Development was Mike M. and this Randal Bills guy....

Was the SR3 craziness in the errata? It's not in my SR3 first printing, it just says "The being may increase or decrease a subjects movement rate withing the terrain it controls, multiplying or dividing the rate using the beings's essence."
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Post by Username17 »

kzt wrote:P&P refers to SRII core and Grimoire II pages. It came out in 1998, like SR3, but it's SR2. Development was Mike M. and this Randal Bills guy....

Was the SR3 craziness in the errata? It's not in my SR3 first printing, it just says "The being may increase or decrease a subjects movement rate withing the terrain it controls, multiplying or dividing the rate using the beings's essence."
Huh. OK. I just associate 1998 as being "SR3" but sure. Of course, being as Magic in the Shadows wouldn't have been out yet, it would refer to Grimoire II pages by default.

The "nerf" to Movement came in paragraph 2 of Movement. That's page 13 of Critters. Gotta admit here: I don't have a copy of the SR3 core on me - it's in storage back in the US. But in any case, Critters was 1998 too (and written by Mike, Rob, and Kenson).

1998 was a year of the powers that be trying to rewrite Movement so that wouldn't involve cars traveling at 500 KPH. But they ended up with Earth Elementals being able to telekinetically crush people with parked cars even at low force. By SR4, the entire experiment had been judged a failure.

-Username17
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