D&D Essentials: Ask me anything.

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Krakatoa
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Post by Krakatoa »

FrankTrollman wrote:Dude, Krakatoa is just a fucking Tone Troll and is unworthy of serious debate. Does he take issue with any of Lago's complaints? No. He attacks Lago for being close minded in general. Close minded apparently meaning "doesn't like stuff that Krakatoa likes".

It's pathetic.

-Username17
Yes, I'm the pathetic one here. :roll:

I don't care whether Lago likes anything I like or not, I was just demonstrating that he exhibits a ridiculous know-it-all attitude, as if he knows more about DnD than the people who designed it.
fectin
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Post by fectin »

Krakatoa wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Dude, Krakatoa is just a fucking Tone Troll and is unworthy of serious debate. Does he take issue with any of Lago's complaints? No. He attacks Lago for being close minded in general. Close minded apparently meaning "doesn't like stuff that Krakatoa likes".

It's pathetic.

-Username17
Yes, I'm the pathetic one here. :roll:

I don't care whether Lago likes anything I like or not, I was just demonstrating that he exhibits a ridiculous know-it-all attitude, as if he knows more about DnD than the people who designed it.
That would be like a pilot knowing more about a plane's flight envelope than the engineers. Crazy!
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

Considering its been designed by committee, its entirely possible that he does know more than any single creator about DnD4e.
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Post by Zinegata »

Re Gleemax:

It was WoTC deciding to royally fuck up the WoTC forums because somebody in the company said "Hey, if Facebook can make millions by providing a social network service, why can't we?"

Unfortunately, they subcontracted it to some schmuck company that was consistently late with implementing promised features. And they hired an utterly terrible community manager (Mike Lescault aka Gamer_Zero) to "manage" the community. And by "manage", I mean he engaged in petty bickering with his support staff, pissed off entire sections of the forums whenever he posted, sided with the assholes like the 4E Avengers because they blindly followed the company line, and was so ineffectual that he couldn't even say if Duel Masters was still a WoTC product or not.

One almost gets the impression this entire fiasco was created just to get Randy Buehler fired.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:You didn't notice? Here's a fun experiment: open up a copy of the latest errata and then go to the errata boards.
I'm not referring to the Errata boards though, which was a largely post-release phenomenon.

I'm referring to how Wyatt is claiming that they seriously listened to idiots like the 4E Avenger crew when they were still designing the base system.

The core CharOp people weren't the hottest designers, to be sure. But at least guys like Caelic understood that there is a lot of merit to the criticism that simply twin striking every turn can get really boring really quickly.

As opposed to the 4E Avenger folks who still deny to this day that the basic attack is now, in fact, an urban legend. :P
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth »

Krakatoa wrote:
I don't care whether Lago likes anything I like or not, I was just demonstrating that he exhibits a ridiculous know-it-all attitude, as if he knows more about DnD than the people who designed it.
I certainly agree that if Lago created his own game, it would be an unplayable, unmarketable loaf of shit (more so than 4E D&D). But that doesn't necessarily make his criticisms wrong.
Last edited by hogarth on Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:See: the Cleric/Warpriest debacle.
Elaborate, please.

Also, something I've noticed from the MM is that 4e monsters have a lot of abilities. I have a feeling that every encounter needs to be well-rehearsed to make it run well. That's not necessarily bad, but I suspect it's a lot more difficult than in 3e.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

hogarth wrote: I certainly agree that if Lago created his own game, it would be an unplayable, unmarketable loaf of shit (more so than 4E D&D).
No one brought up ANYTHING about me designing my own RPG but you just had to get in your little sneaky, passive-aggressive, mewling little puss punch in there, didn't you?

Or if you are going to resort to this type of (micro)penis waving, you could at least provide a sliver of an example. Like 'Lago's idea on multiclassing are dumb' or 'Lago loves sucking the cock of ease of play in order to fish for audiences that aren't there'.

You do this cowardly shit all of the time, hogarth and it's annoying as fuck.
Psychic Robot wrote: Elaborate, please.
The cleric class is a goddamn mess. While it was (and in some respects still is) very powerful, it's also really fragile. The class design, like all PHB originals, is all over the place and the fact remains that while the cleric has some very strong powers, for the most part the class is a turkey. It's split down the middle (though not as badly as the paladin or the warlock), has schticks that don't synergize, and the strength of its powers are all over the map.

This could have been fixed very easily if they just gave the more abusive cleric powers (righteous brand, consecrated ground, etc.) a well-deserved nerf... but the FLIP side to that is that they needed to show the class some love. But in the Dragon articles, the cleric is the most persistently shat-upon of the PHB originals. The powers published, with perhaps one or two, were too few and too unhelpful. So when the inevitable nerf came, the cleric (especially the Razor Cleric) was left holding the bag.

It was about at THIS time the people designing the PHB3 realized that they had run out of ideas. This is why you had useless concepts like the Battlemind and the Seeker. So they went, 'hey, you know what would be nice? If we published a divine healer frontliner class that doesn't suck!' and we have the warpriest. The problem is that A) this is a direct thumb in the eye to all of the Razor Cleric players beforehand, to have a class that was 'just the same, but better' and B) the warpriest didn't have enough good powers at the onset to justify its existence. While the chassis is very, very solid the powers are turkeys. So we got two underpowered classes when we used to have one marginally-overpowered class because WotC decided that people were morons who would buy fixes just because they said it was fixed. But given the very existence of Essentials, is anyone surprised?
Krakatoa wrote:I don't care whether Lago likes anything I like or not, I was just demonstrating that he exhibits a ridiculous know-it-all attitude, as if he knows more about DnD than the people who designed it.
You don't need to be a physician to tell someone that their leg is broken. Obvious flaws don't need any special kind of expertise to be pointed out. I personally think that it's more arrogant to go 'you weren't there, how would you know?!' or 'where's YOUR RPG?', like you need special training to point out that the Emperor Has No Clothes.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Krakatoa
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Post by Krakatoa »

I'm not expecting you to make your own RPG. In fact, I'm sure some of your criticisms are perfectly accurate (as I'm also sure some of your criticisms are wrong, because I've played the game for myself.) But if you (general you, not just Lago) think acting like a smug-ass nerd is the best way to convince WOTC that 4E is unworkably flawed, then you'll probably be dissapointed.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
hogarth wrote: I certainly agree that if Lago created his own game, it would be an unplayable, unmarketable loaf of shit (more so than 4E D&D).
No one brought up ANYTHING about me designing my own RPG but you just had to get in your little sneaky, passive-aggressive, mewling little puss punch in there, didn't you?
We were on the topic of "I know better than the game designers".

I'm sorry I punched you in your pussy, though.
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Post by Username17 »

Yah, hogarth goes on ignore. We don't need that kind of shitty trolling on this board.

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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Lago: When you say "warpriest," do you mean "runepriest"?
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

PR: Yes.
Krakatoa wrote:But if you (general you, not just Lago) think acting like a smug-ass nerd is the best way to convince WOTC that 4E is unworkably flawed, then you'll probably be dissapointed.
I don't want them to fix the flaws. That ship sailed after the onslaught of March errata. On the off chance that a game designer or someone with WotC's ear comes to the boards and is offended by the content, it's actually a win for me if someone decides to ignore the complaint because they didn't like how they delivered it. I want them to ignore the flaws and keep building on them and adding more so that the edition crashes early and we can move on with their lives.

When 5E rolls around, I'll be my nice and charming self again. I might even get a sockpuppet, wipe the slate clean. And as long as 5E stays potentially fixable, I'll be nice about it.

... of course, this is all running under the delusion that anyone would actually care enough about what I write to make a decision on it in the first place. Which I don't. Let's get real, TGD ain't exactly a happening place.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Krakatoa wrote:(as I'm also sure some of your criticisms are wrong, because I've played the game for myself.)
Some of my criticisms boil down to preference, to be frank. I mean, when I say that the ritual system is non-functional, I just mean that it's non-functional to me. Some people non-ironically like it even after they're aware of how it works inside and out. I also personally loathe how Andy Collins intentionally made it so that racial feats are better than non-racial feats, but again that just boils down to preference. Maybe they actually wanted a game where dwarven battleragers were the OTR for fighters and that you'd get a kick in the nuts for picking anything else.

In those occasions, I can't really say anyone is wrong or not wrong. We're just flinging opinions at each other at that point.


... what I CAN do, however, is point out where the game designers claim they want their rules to do one thing but actually do another. Since 4E bills itself as the most balanced edition of D&D yet and goes out of its way to fix perceived flaws to an extent not seen in any other TTRPG, this actually makes it really easy to find things to complain about. In addition to parts of the rules where they fuck up their own black box system so it doesn't do what they want it to do (like Skill Challenges or the treasure system).
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Zinegata »

Nobody really thinks that what Lago posts will get WoTC to change their mind. Lago included. Probably. If not then I need to keep hitting Lago in the head until his brain rights itself.

What Lago's doing is to engage in criticism by way of showing alternatives. As in, "instead of doing this retarded shit, we should do this instead!"

Which isn't a bad thing as long as you recognize this is the case and avoid getting all butthurt about nothing.

So can we now go back to how Titanium Dragon ruined 4E?
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tzor
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Post by tzor »

fectin wrote:That would be like a pilot knowing more about a plane's flight envelope than the engineers. Crazy!
Considering that the engineers never put their plane in a wind tunnel ... not crazy at all. :razz:

By the way, did you know that the original ocean crosing passinger airplanes had square windows? Eventually they crashed because the stress on the square window caused metal fatigue. If that happens to real engineers, imagine what happens to game designers who put in this "cool feature" without really testing that cool feature under all possible conditions.
fectin
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Post by fectin »

I have heard of at least one specific aircraft model with a switch that was known (by pilots) to crash planes. As in, "press here to die."
So yes, sorry the sarcasm wasn't clear enough before, but users very often know more about how the system works than designers do.
Their proposed solutions are not always quality, but that's a different issue.
Last edited by fectin on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
Windjammer
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Post by Windjammer »

Re: thread title

I'm about to finalize my review for the Essentials DM kit. I gave the free review copy to a friend who might enjoy it. I don't. The adventure is pretty decent, if a straight rip off of Star Wars episodes iv-vi (join the rebel alliance, defeat your own HQ [Hoth] then take on enemy HQ to free princess/baron from oppressors).

What makes me rate it extremely low is that the "DM book", which allegeldy contains "all the rules" you ever need as a DM (p.4), does not contain rules for making your own monsters or traps. Ok. But it actually doesn't contain a section on how to build a dungeon either. A freaking dungeon! The word "dungeon" does not appear in the index. In fact, the only time dungeons get mentioned at all is three sentences in the section "encounter theme: underworld". I'm serious. This is the first DM book which doesn't think creating dungeons is "essential" for Dungeon Mastering.

And, oh, the section on skill challenges doesn't explain the skill system, nor does the rest of the book. Also, the chapter on combat leaves out lots. So much for "contains all the rules you need as a DM".
Last edited by Windjammer on Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Krakatoa
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Post by Krakatoa »

I guess the theory is that if DMs want more in depth instructions they'll have to buy a DMG or the Rules Compendium, cuz those are some pretty glaring omissions for an entry-level product.

Well... as much as anything DnD can be considered entry-level. Seriously if WOTC wants to attract new players then they should look at building a rules-lite game that lets newbies get the general idea down before having to deal with pages of abilities and number-crunching buffs.
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Post by Swordslinger »

Essentials isn't for the hardcore RPG player. It's for the casual who just wants to play a class that can get away with using simple tactics and not suck completely.
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Post by TheWorid »

Swordslinger wrote:Essentials isn't for the hardcore RPG player. It's for the casual who just wants to play a class that can get away with using simple tactics and not suck completely.
Except that it's not even good at that, as a result of all the crap you have to fiddle with to make/update your character.
FrankTrollman wrote:Coming or going, you must deny people their fervent wishes, because their genuine desire is retarded and impossible.
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Shazbot79
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Post by Shazbot79 »

Krakatoa wrote:I'm not expecting you to make your own RPG. In fact, I'm sure some of your criticisms are perfectly accurate (as I'm also sure some of your criticisms are wrong, because I've played the game for myself.) But if you (general you, not just Lago) think acting like a smug-ass nerd is the best way to convince WOTC that 4E is unworkably flawed, then you'll probably be dissapointed.
The whole point of this board is to criticize game design. It's like a QA thinktank for RPG's. The members here look at what doesn't work in a particular game, and then propose ways to fix it. That's what the gaming den is for, and that's why people hang out here...even though they constantly argue and punch eachother in the pussy.

As a fan of 4E (mostly) it would be easy for me to look at guys like Frank and Lago and say that they are just being petty assclowns and complaining for no good reason...but if you pay attention to their posts, you'll find that their criticisms of the actual rules are usually spot-on accurate...and this is because they have actually played the game extensively and intimately familarized themselves with the rules. Lago could build a 4E character who could put anything you or I would come up with to shame. These cats KNOW the game...probably better than most of the people who think it's some sort of RPG nirvana.

My advice to you...pay attention and stop looking for a fight. You might just learn something, and you might find some decent ideas to pilfer for your own game...in case you find something that needs houseruling.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar »

Thanks to the Den, I will never finish my fantasy heartbreaker.
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Shazbot79
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Post by Shazbot79 »

mean_liar wrote:Thanks to the Den, I will never finish my fantasy heartbreaker.
I will eventually. I just won't bring it here for critique because I'd like to live under the delusion that I've created something playable.

Something I've noticed about fantasy heart breakers though...they don't pay a lot of attention to the whole magic thing. I mean sure, they have magic systems...but most either port over D&D's classic spell list (if it's a retroclone) or go the whole "sword and sorcery" route, which means that magic is too under-powered and impractical to make a magic user worth playing.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

I feel embarrassed asking this, but I missed it when it first came up.

Someone define "Fantasy heartbreaker" for me.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Sashi
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Post by Sashi »

Let me google that for you

TLDR: "Here's my version of D&D. Wow! I'm a genius and going to make a million dollars!"
Last edited by Sashi on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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