Can someone explain to me what's going on in Greece?

K · Post by K » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:11 am

If we'd get inflation by printing money to pay off the debt and that's bad, what's the downside to simply writing off the debt or doing emergency alteration of the debt interest rates?

I know the answer is "some people with lots of money get boned" and "rich people won't take our debt," but I don't really see that as compelling arguments in these economic times.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:15 am

K wrote:If we'd get inflation by printing money to pay off the debt and that's bad, what's the downside to simply writing off the debt or doing emergency alteration of the debt interest rates?

Well, historically, it's worked pretty well for countries that did just that - defaulting on it or threatening to do so and thus renegotiating the debt to something much more reasonable.

Wait, "it works just as intended and the country ends up much better off in a way the people in the country can appreciate" isn't really a downside, is it?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:40 pm

The interesting things about Argentina are two:

The first is that newspapers, talkshows, and bankster technocrats talk about the dire warning of Argentina as if it were an actual thing. If you read "serious commentary" on Argentina, you would think that after the default the economy was in ruins and the government reduced to burning money just to keep warm. The second thing to understand is that the actual economic history of Argentina looks like this:

Analysts were puzzled and stunned when the President of Argentina was reelected this year with a 37% bulge over her closest competitor and warned Argentina of dire consequences. But... they've been warning of dire consequences for Argentina for ten fucking years. At this point, an Argentinian economic setback wouldn't be the banksters being provided right, it would be stopped clock syndrome.

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:16 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Jesus Christ, why are people so flipping out about inflation? Yes, it sucks and disproportionately hurts the .1%, but considering every other alternative it's the best of bad options.

It depednds on who you are. Generally people with "fixed" incomes tend to be worried the most. That's a smaller and smaller set of the population every year, even Social Security has an inflation based COLA on it.

Having spent my high school years in that wonder era of Carter's inflation, the only problem I see is the "math is hard" problem (adjusting for inflation) and the "When I was a kid you could get a piece of Bazzoka Gum for a penny, now you can't get crap for a cent" old geizer problem.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:57 am

Back on topic:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/ ... IJ20111111

Greeks are fucked.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:34 am

You know how France has been holding Germany's cock while it pisses on the rest of Europe? It's not actually working out that well for France any more:

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:43 am

What is that chart measuring? I can see the timeframe, and "some number", and the red line mapping the rapid increase of "some number" over time, but I think I missed the bit where it says whether its French debt or the strength of the German economy over everyone else or just the cost of croissants and pretentiousness.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:49 am

I believe it has something to do with how hard people are trying to get rid of some sort of bonds.

EDIT: Ah, it's how big people want the 'rate of return' on certain bonds to be, according to the comments on the blog posting.

EDIT2: Here's the page it's from: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=.FRGER10:IND

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:51 am

Koumei wrote:What is that chart measuring? I can see the timeframe, and "some number", and the red line mapping the rapid increase of "some number" over time, but I think I missed the bit where it says whether its French debt or the strength of the German economy over everyone else or just the cost of croissants and pretentiousness.

It says right on the chat. It's the France:Germany10-year-spread.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:54 am

So, basically, it's how risky France's bonds are compared to Germany's bonds?

EDIT: According to someone or other?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:58 am

Koumei wrote:What is that chart measuring? I can see the timeframe, and "some number", and the red line mapping the rapid increase of "some number" over time, but I think I missed the bit where it says whether its French debt or the strength of the German economy over everyone else or just the cost of croissants and pretentiousness.

That is the interest rate spread between France and Germany. So that's the amount more interest that France has to pay on their 10 year bonds than the Euro Core does. Now, for the first half of the year, the spread was less than half a percent, meaning that France was basically "Core Europe" as far as investors were concerned. This month however, interest rates have spiked and France is paying almost 2 percent more than Germany, which means that it is catching up rapidly to Spain.

The Sarkozy Response has been to note that France is hitting a slowdown and that revenue will fall short of projections for the year, so he is proposing additional cuts in order to make the slump even worse. And for some reason, investors don't think that a French recessionary spiral combined with a do-nothing central bank is a recipe for them getting their money back if they lend it to France.

And with Italy already in the firing line and France lining itself up for the Guillotine, that's 2 out of 3 of the largest economies in the European Economic Union facing default prospects within two years. It's rapidly approaching a point where the ECB couldn't stop a Euro breakup even if they suddenly decided that they had a mandate to do so.

-Username17

Daiba · Post by **Daiba** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:18 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:And for some reason, investors don't think that a French recessionary spiral combined with a do-nothing central bank is a recipe for them getting their money back if they lend it to France.

My favorite part of this international economic debacle is that investor 'confidence' has become so ideologically enshrined that the people in charge are ignoring what the investors are actually doing. Also that investors worldwide base their risks on Keynesian analysis but the owners of capital constantly shout for supply-side economics, real business cycle theory, and other bullshit.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:22 pm

An interesting little tid-bit from Time about how one way to view the recent political shake-ups in Greece and Italy is as being driven by the interests of the banks.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:43 pm

Important tidbit, those delivering the austerity medicine are (surprise), real Fascists:

http://exiledonline.com/austerity-fasci ... -doctrine/

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:18 pm

So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:34 pm

sabs wrote:So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF

You're just an Oligarchist in both cases. Not a Fascist or a Patriot.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:36 pm

@sabs

Protestant work ethic (read: self-flaggelation) and neo-Calvinism. Hunter S. Thompson explains it.

Is also unimportant. Why? See, the Bankstas have also supported Muslim millitants:

http://exiledonline.com/wn-blog-day-17- ... l-of-econ/

http://exiledonline.com/wn-blog-day-22- ... ol-around/

Is not about ideologies, is about who serves the Bankstas and who doesn't:

http://exiledonline.com/rightwing-blogg ... rotesters/

The Bankstas support anybody as long as they are batting for their teaam.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:53 pm

Wait, you brought it up.. but it's unimportant?
Are you fucking kidding me?

That's your go to line?
Oh, and you're insulting Calvinists for what reason again? What the fuck does that even have to do with it?
Wait, you're saing that Hunter S Thompson, a member of the ULC was a Calvinist? Do you even know wtf Calvinists are?

and what the fuck is Neo-Calvinism?
And where does the Protestant Work Ethic come into any of it?

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:22 pm

Explanation:

*I* brought up that the Bankstas are supporting real Fascists (as in Nazi supporters). You brought up the comparison to Republicans and asked why they act like they do. I gave an explanation. Here's the long version:

http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/02/ ... calvinism/

Then I brought up, that the Baknstas will support ANYBODY who sells their fellow countrymen to them.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:51 pm

sabs wrote:So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF

Rich Americans stand to save money on taxes with US austerity. European austerity is threatening the long term stability of the European economy, which... stands to make rich Americans lose money.

The connection seems pretty clear to me.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:40 pm

Keeping up, Italians revolt against the Bankster Goverment:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/technocra ... er-governm

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:02 pm

sabs wrote:So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF

Many in Europe also don't see the difference between a facist and a flag waving real American patriot.

K · Post by K » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:49 pm

ishy wrote:
sabs wrote:So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF
Many in Europe also don't see the difference between a facist and a flag waving real American patriot.

To be fair, not many Americans see a difference either.

I mean, the Tea Party creeps the fuck out of most of us and they aren't even the worst example.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:22 pm

K wrote:
ishy wrote:
sabs wrote:So I'm confused.
In Europe, if you are pushing Austerity, you're a Facist.
In the US. If you are pushing for Austerity, you're a flag waving, real american patriot republican,.

WTF
Many in Europe also don't see the difference between a facist and a flag waving real American patriot.
To be fair, not many Americans see a difference either.

I mean, the Tea Party creeps the fuck out of most of us and they aren't even the worst example.

The Tea Party tends to be hardcore libertarian while Fascism is totalitarian. Ideologically they couldn't be more different. Fascism is probably more defensible because it doesn't necessarily lead to the dismantling of vital social welfare programs.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:36 pm

hyzmarca wrote: The Tea Party tends to be hardcore libertarian while Fascism is totalitarian.

That's not even close to true. The American Tea Party would love for people to think that they're libertarian because as George Carlin pointed out 'libertarian' has the same sort of vague respectability and detachment that appeals to disaffected low-information voters (also known as lazy, sniveling morons) in the way that 'centrist' does--meaning that a large proportion of the American voting public thinks libertarian is more respectable than liberal or conservative, because, guess what the voting public largely consists of?

Even so, ATPers are explicitly rejected by libertarians. Now while many conservative and libertarian positions overlap, basically, if you: are against gay rights, want to break down the wall between separation of Church and State, and are concerned about protecting Medicare/Social Security... you are not a libertarian.

You can get more information on this, including cites and the like, right here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tea_Party_ ... bertarians