Chamomile wrote:Prak_Anima wrote:But the game which says "Everyone exemplifies one of the cardinal or theological virtues and one of the deadly sins, and they absolutely must be treated that way," while not propaganda, is fucking dumb.
So it's pretty cool that the definitions of the virtues that White Wolf actually wrote down are
completely different from the actual theological virtues, right? I mean, it's still dumb, but not morally wrong. Their definition of Faith is specifically built to allow for atheists. The same way that calling your Kobolds "nigards" would be stupid, but not morally wrong, because it makes perfect sense from a purely logical standpoint that "nigard" is derived from "niggardly" which is etymologically a completely different word from "[EDITED]" or any of its variants.
First of all, "nigard" is morally wrong because it makes people think of the racial slur. It doesn't matter what excuse you use about etymology because it's not fooling anyone.
You don't get to slightly change things and pretend that they aren't substantially the same. Intelligent Design doesn't fool anyone into thinking that it's not Creationism and "nigard" is not fooling anyone into thinking that it's not a racial slur with huge cultural baggage that you filed the serial numbers off of.
Here is a thought experiment: run around your neighborhood and call every woman you see a "cunny." When people start beating you about the head and shoulders, explain to them that the word actually means "rabbit" and you haven't been calling their wives and mothers "[EDITED]." See how that "pure logic" works out.
That being said, WW's system is not
completely different. It's a slightly liberalized version that you'd find in a Catholic Church with a hip new priest fresh from the seminary who was trying to reach the young people, but I'm sure that it'd pass Vatican inspection.
Maybe if they replaced Gluttony and Sloth with Intolerance and Idolatry or something, then maybe you could make an argument that it was different enough not not be a total Catholic rip-off, but in this case you really can't. It's substantially the same thing and people recognize that in the same way that they know that Intelligent Design is Creationism.
People are not stupid and they are not fooled by small technical differences even when propagandists insist that those differences are super huge.
Chamomile wrote:
@K: Yeah, a ton of our culture has its roots in Christianity, our roots were pure Christian going back over a thousand years. If you want to invalidate everything that makes use of Christian-based cultural motifs, then you have eliminated like half our culture. The Declaration of Independence isn't theistic propaganda because it talks about men being endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights.
Yes, it is Christian propaganda.
It's a particularly harmless form because it never comes into people's lives, but it is still propaganda.
Chamomile wrote:Is
Overlord morally wrong because of its inclusion of the seven deadly sins? What about
the Keys to the Kingdom, which makes reference to both the sins and their opposite virtues?
Here is the difference: you aren't expected to live by morality of Overlord. In Overlord, you are actually murdering these representations of Catholic morality, basically an act that represents just how little you need to respect that moral system.
In WW, you are forced to pretend to be Catholic and see the world as a Catholic person does. All of your actions are seen through the lens of religious teaching because you are going to be asking "did I fulfill this Catholic teaching so that I can regain some Willpower?"
See the difference?
Including religious imagery is not the same as telling people to live a certain way or fail the game. It's no different than a game where killing only black people and not killing the whites got you XP.... you'd notice that the game was totally racist and probably not want to play it. By the same token, people noticed that nWoD was totally Catholic and didn't want to play it.
As a side note, I should mention that it doesn't even matter if WW included some Crone worshipers. Every good Catholic world needs witches to burn, so those fit right in.