The Gaming Den

I would add that ACKS and Myth and Magic both tried to fill an unfilled niche. They also put in work to build a fan base. I would expect someone unestablished to get less that 40K if they where pitching a 3.5 retroclone (is 5 years enough to call something retro?), even though it is a much larger pie it is also cut into many more pieces.

So, this thing is finally out. Anyone grab a copy and want to share some details and impressions with the rest of us?

It's a billion years in the future.

Tasks have a difficulty from 0 to 10, but the actual TN is the difficulty x3. Because fuck clarity.

Damage is flat. Armor is DR. Yes, that becomes extremely deterministic.

Special effects for natural 19s, natural 20s, natural 17s and natural 18s in that order, because fuck editing.

One glint of brightness, XP is not for killing or overcoming challenges. It then says that 'discovery is the soul of Numenera.' I'm sure that's explained later.

Any specific questions?

What do you get XP for?

Is the system D&D-like, in the sense that enemies have hit points and you roll attack vs. defense to beat them up with weapons, you use magical abilities on opponents with a chance to avoid the effect, you wander around looking to upgrade your equipment, etc.?

Monsters have a level, which is also the difficulty to affect them.

If you ever get a bonus of +3, reduce the difficulty of the task by 1 instead so you're never adding more than +2 to a roll. Because yaya extra math steps for no reason.

Three basic ranges: Immediate (<10 feet), Short (10-50 feet), Long (50-100 feet). There are longer distances, but they're specified. But a bow specifically has Long range and is therefore massively shorter ranged than you might expect.

You can move an Immediate distance as part of another action, a Short distance as your whole action, and a Long distance as a whole action with a chance of fucking up and tripping or something.

It's implied there's no AoO or other blocking for mechanic, but it's vague.

Oh, here we fucking go.

Experience points (XP) are rewards given to players when the GM intrudes on the story (this is called GM Intrusion) wit h a new and unexpected challenge. For example, in the middle of combat, the GM might inform the player that he drops his weapon. However, to intrude in this manner, the GM must award the player 2 XP. The rewarded player in turn must immediately give 1 of those XP to another player and justify the gift (perhaps the other player had a good idea, told a funny joke, performed an action that saved a life, and so on).

Because that doesn't seem like a 'playing favorites' system at all...

Oh, there's more. The player can spend 1 XP (if they have any) to deny the intrusion. The GM can also give between-session XP for 'recovering interesting artifacts or making discoveries.' Also you can spend 1 XP to re-roll a die. Holy fuck this game is going to test the table's social contract.

Finally, Cyphers. These are one-shot items that you shouldn't carry too many of at a time because they don't play well together. This is to encourage players to use their expendables, I guess. It's also mentioned that you'll find these 'frequently.' That's not too bad, if a bit clumsily contrived.

I think I covered all the XP stuff, unless there's more hidden somewhere. But as to this other bit...

hogarth wrote:Is the system D&D-like, in the sense that enemies have hit points and you roll attack vs. defense to beat them up with weapons, you use magical abilities on opponents with a chance to avoid the effect, you wander around looking to upgrade your equipment, etc.?

Yes, yes, not quite (there don't seem to be saves, 'magic' effects are either automatic or Intellect attack rolls), yes.

...aaand there was more xp stuff hidden away. It includes GM awards, which are for completing missions, and specifically mentions player-driven awards, which involves the PCs handing out quests to themselves so they can get XP for doing what they want and not just what exclamation-point-man wants. That's surprisingly empowering.

Just continuing to skim...

Three stats: Might, Speed, Intellect. In each case you have a raw stat (your 'Pool') which serves as a drain battery and damage bar; an Edge rating (discount on relevant drain costs); and an Effort rating (the maximum difficulty steps you can reduce a task by by spending from the Pool: 3/difficulty). You can also apply effort to increase damage dealt.

Levels appear to be called Tiers. Going up a tier involves buying 4 benefits - and you can't have more than one of the same kind until you have gone up a tier. So one of the benefits is increasing an Edge by 1, and if you did that you couldn't buy another Edge boost until you had also bought three more different benefits.

Your character is an [adjective][noun] who [verbs]. The nouns are Glaive (warrior), Nano (tech-based wizard), and Jack (rogue). Your noun determines a large amount of how your stats are set up. They are described up to Tier 6.

The adjectives are things like Strong, Learned, Rugged, Stealthy, etc. Each comes with a package deal of bennies, some have drawbacks, maybe some basic gear. You also get to pick 1 of 4 'links' which is how you wound up on the starting adventure.

The verbs are weird. They range from 'Carries a Quiver' to 'Controls Gravity,' and I don't know how they can possibly e balanced. Each comes with a Connection, which is 'pick another PC for something.' Carries a Quiver picks another PC to be the one who gave them their bow, and secretly picks another PC who will if possible always be the target when the GM intrudes to turn one of your misses into 'hits a friend.' Controls Gravity picks a PC who was recently the victim of a power-fumble and might hold a grudge against you. Each also seems to come with some gear. Carries a Quiver gets a bow and 24 arrows (and hilariously no explicit quiver). Controls Gravity gets a little doohickey that measures the weight of whatever it's pointed at within Short range.

There's also a list of what each power does at each tier. Controls Gravity actually isn't that spicy. At Tier 1 it's only very slow flight - it doesn't actually do anything really badass until Tier 6.

These bits have the sound of things that were not playtested.

I was mostly looking for a review/rageview, but initial and rambling thoughts are just as good probably. Seems like I'll still get what I was looking for out of them, so thanks for volunteering afap.

And since you asked, a few questions:
[*]Is the basic mechanic still "roll a d20, add some stuff, compare to (modified) difficulty"?
[*]Since it's static damage, do you even need other dice?
[*]Monte seems to be making a big deal out of his GMing advice chapters, even going so far as to say you could buy it for those along (which sounds like a stretch). Is there anything in there that stands out as actually good/useful or terrible?
[*]And one that might need to wait for a bit, do the mechanics support its setting and goals well enough that it's worth picking up and looking into directly?

I've gone home and no longer have the thing in front of me, but...

• Is the basic mechanic still "roll a d20, add some stuff, compare to (modified) difficulty"?
– Yes, although as noted if you add enough stuff you modify the difficulty downward instead for reasons.

• Since it's static damage, do you even need other dice?
– The dice section mentioned that you needed some d6s and occasionally percentile (which they recommend using the last digit of two d20s for). I saw some percentile tables for 'random origin' and such, and I assume treasure tables and similar. Didn't see anything that used d6s, but I assume they're there.

• Monte seems to be making a big deal out of his GMing advice chapters, even going so far as to say you could buy it for those along (which sounds like a stretch). Is there anything in there that stands out as actually good/useful or terrible?
– I skimmed them a little, and nothing jumped out at me, but I'll be sure to pay extra attention the next time I have the thing in hand.

• And one that might need to wait for a bit, do the mechanics support its setting and goals well enough that it's worth picking up and looking into directly?
– Yeah, no idea as yet.

Well, as I think has been mentioned before, Monte is good with ideas and tweaking another system, his failing is mostly making his own, so the MCing advice could actually have some decent ideas, I mean, at least it's not SKR or Skip Williams.

Prak_Anima wrote:Well, as I think has been mentioned before, Monte is good with ideas and tweaking another system, his failing is mostly making his own, so the MCing advice could actually have some decent ideas, I mean, at least it's not SKR or Skip Williams.

HA! SKR is one of the two main rule developers!

Well, in that case, gentlemen, I believe we may well be fucked.

What's the setting like, and what do you think it holds in store for Torment?

And so begins my read through Numenera, as anyone who's read this thread can attest, it's Monte Cook's first foray into making an RPG without having to defer to someone higher in the chain or even the constraints of already established systems. Cook's greatest weakness is that he needs someone to reign him in, and Numenera is essentually Monte Unleashed. I fear.

I will be writing this as I read it, and will likely have a summary at the end of all this, depending on how sane I am.

Chapter 1: Stay a while, and listen
After sloughing through a short story I completely didn't care about, this chapter gives me a proper rundown of the setting. The Ninth World is Earth a billion years in the future, and there have been eight prior civilizations that reached the Singularity (or blew themselves up with super-tech) and then GTFO. Clarke's over-used quote is essential to this setting, as the setting is full to gills with 'magic' trash left from the prior eight worlds.

Right away, I worry about cyphers, the scrolls and potions of Numenera. Apparently they all run on plutonium and are vaguely dangerous if you have a sack of them. On top of that, the items that mean anything to a PC are explicitly listed as something the DM gives. Skimming ahead, there aren't any guidelines

Chapter 2: How do I d20?
Essentially the core resolution system. Damn, I don't get the extra steps here. Everything is going to be given a difficulty/level, which directly correlates to a DC of (3*difficulty). If you're skilled, you lower the difficulty by one or two. If you have a magic item or other "asset", you lower the difficulty by up to two. Why? Is Monte too afraid of anyone adding modifiers that change the DC by one or two that he's added an entire level of math to make it more difficult? Can't you just say all levels and assets move in 3 point increments?

Next are the criticals in the system. As mentioned before, they describe the effects of a natural 19 (minor boost, like 3 damage), then a natural 20 (major boost, like 4 damage...), then a natural 17/18. I don't know why. I hope the book gives more specific than what these three paragraphs list. Same goes for the XP stuff.

The rule that you can spend 1 XP for a reroll, and 4 XP will get you a permanent stat boost and a quarter of the way to the next level (cap out at 6th level), is terribad.

Chapter 3: Making your Sue
We have three stats; Strength, Dexterity, & Will. Each stat is a mana pool & your hit points. There's also a sub-stat (Edge) that lowers the mana cost of special abilities tied to that stat. Right away, I can tell that Edge is going to be incredibly important.

There's some good enough guidelines for describing your character and advancement seems simple enough, though I am holding my breath as to whether skill training will ever be the superior option to learning a new spell. Especially since the skill list is completely open and therefore you can have a guy with Deceiving and another with Interaction. Note, casting spells is a skill, so you're getting that sucker trained as a mage.

Chapter 4: Class
Fighter, Rogue, Mage. I'm certain there's an RPG that goes by this title. All of them have fairly robust descriptions for making a character's personality; ultimately tea party, but it's set up so that most who play will have flavour text surrounding them. Ideally, this gets them more immersed in the setting. I'm going to have to give at least some approval for that.

Geez, will they EVER learn? A level 6 fighter gets such awesome powers like "punch and shoot in the same action!" or "I deal extra damage" while a mage...


Meanwhile, the rogue gets access to powers from both, but not as good most of the time. Invisibility is a 6th level rogue power, but a 4th level mage one. If I ever get roped into a game, there will be a character known as Jack of the Ivory Tower at least mentioned.

Chapter 5: Mad-Lib Character Design
Basically your archetype, getting some skill training and bonus mana. As skills are all MTP, you know to aim for the broader skills.

Chapter 6: Focus with more stuff
It's like the archetype, but with real powers, but just as different in powers. Carries a Quiver does such awesome stuff as "trained in using bows", while Commands Mental Powers gives you domination, mind reading, and a world-wide telepathic network.

Yup, this is apparently going to be a theme, no real correlation of balance between the different options. Some characters are going to be grotesquely obese wizards that can summon magic items, while others will be effin' monks that can fight in the dark.

Is there any reason why you don't just use the difficulty as the TN and roll a d6 instead of a d20?

virgil wrote:Chapter 4: Class
[...]
Fighter,[...]

I hate it.

Time for some idle speculation on my part ....

angelfromanotherpin wrote: If you ever get a bonus of +3, reduce the difficulty of the task by 1 instead so you're never adding more than +2 to a roll. Because yaya extra math steps for no reason.

It seems like the obvious intent is to keep the #s small; possibly in reaction to the d20 problem of how easy it is to fall off the RNG. This keeps your bonuses to &#8804; 10% of the RNG.
If I'm only dealing with multiples of 3, and the difficulty caps at 6, I don't have a problem the extra math .... it's so trivial that it can become 2nd-nature after only a few sessions.

Parthenon wrote:Is there any reason why you don't just use the difficulty as the TN and roll a d6 instead of a d20?

Because the grain on a single d6 is way too coarse?
He's obviously using "6" as the primary # for his underlying math, and then scaled it out to fit on a d20 (because granularity).

I think I like this aspect of his design goals (at least in principle); as for implementation .... too soon to say.

wotmaniac wrote:Time for some idle speculation on my part ....

angelfromanotherpin wrote: If you ever get a bonus of +3, reduce the difficulty of the task by 1 instead so you're never adding more than +2 to a roll. Because yaya extra math steps for no reason.

It seems like the obvious intent is to keep the #s small; possibly in reaction to the d20 problem of how easy it is to fall off the RNG. This keeps your bonuses to &#8804; 10% of the RNG.
If I'm only dealing with multiples of 3, and the difficulty caps at 6, I don't have a problem the extra math .... it's so trivial that it can become 2nd-nature after only a few sessions.

I'm not sure Numenera really avoids RNG. Although you can't reduce a task's difficulty by more than two steps from a single source (like, a skill), you can stack different bonuses on top of each other (gear, fellow adventurers, situation). I'm not finished reading but I got the impression it relies heavily on GM fiat, like so much else in this system.

The rule that you can spend 1 XP for a reroll, and 4 XP will get you a permanent stat boost and a quarter of the way to the next level (cap out at 6th level), is terribad.

More so than spend XP to deny yourself and someone else at the table more XP?

What's the difference between a level 1 and level 6 threat?

In-game, is that tornado-storm able to do more than "I shoot arrows really good"?

OgreBattle wrote:What's the difference between a level 1 and level 6 threat?

In-game, is that tornado-storm able to do more than "I shoot arrows really good"?

Level 1 threats are a DC 3 & to do stuff to and resist & have 3 HP. Level 6 threats are DC 18 and have that many HP.

As for the tornado-storm vs Carries a Quiver, you're doing 6 damage per round in a 1000' radius for ten minutes. So...yes?

I don't get why you would spend xp to stop the MC from giving you xp. Unless you can stop him from giving other players xp. This game might be stupid.

Basically, Numenera was what Monty wanted for NEXT and was denied by Mearls. The game has DnD written all over it.

The game is a zero-to-hero about post-apocalyptic murderhobos who delve in Panzer Dragoon-land dungeons and stab mutants for their non-magical-magic items.

The system is a variation of GUMSHOE with power levels along the lines of Night's Black Agents. You can play badass against human oponents, but try to solo any moster of lvl 4 or higher and you're toast (regardless of your level). Also, monsters of lvl 7 and higher can't be defeated, period.

Linear Fighters Quadratic Wizards is perfectly alive and well, but this is a DnD heartbreaker so it's a surprise to no one… I just wish they had actually made use of the quasi techy setting to actually empower Redgar with bionic implants or whatever to give him agency beyond skills.

Magic is a middle point between 4E and NEXT. Lots of boring pew pew with a couple of interesting spells that can actually be used for something else.

The setting is a medieval variant of his MCWoD where he gives players the choice between playing medieval Mad Max or playing in the civilized lands.

GMing section and XP criteria are so far up Monte's Ivory tower that he starts reminding me of Dr. Manhattan. He seems to be in a "I'm tired of trying to understand you guys so now we do things my way" phase (in one of the beta documents he even used the "and then the PCs are captured" example). He tossed the word "storygaming" a couple times during design phase. I guess his definition of storygaming is BDSM with no safewords (or guidelines for that matter).

Ignoring the GMing part, however, the game is usable saying you standarize XP.

Rawbeard wrote:I don't get why you would spend xp to stop the MC from giving you xp. Unless you can stop him from giving other players xp. This game might be stupid.

I suppose it depends on how dickish the 'intrusions' can be. The example was 'and you randomly drop your gun (or whatever),' which is annoying and raises all sorts of issues with DM smacking players arbitrarily, but it can easily escalate to 'lose your signature item down a hole,' at which point yeah, you're going to have to burn character power to not lose character power. And makes the other people at the table pissed as well.

Fuck this. It sounds like it empowers and encourages DM cock slaps as well as making players beg to take a suck.