Ten Levels

[Kaelik]

I guess another mind controller with a sword would be Jin-e from Rurouni Kenshin, as if you can completely paralyze someone it's not a huge leap to include making them follow your commands.

Okay, first off, when you say Naruto, you mean Rock Lee and Rock Lee only, you should have clarified that initially.

Secondly, you are fundamentally wrong about what Charles Atlas even means. Charles Atlas does not mean "anyone can learn it" because guess what, anyone can learn to cast spells as a Wizard. So yes, mesmerists are exactly like Wizard magic. IE, not Charles Atlas.

Now the above quoted portion above is literally the most hilarious thing I have ever seen in my life.

I currently posses the ability to paralyze someone right now, by breaking their fucking neck. It is a huge leap to go from that to controlling them. Inhibiting signals is pretty much the exact opposite of sending them.

[virgil]

Yes, I should've clarified, sorry 'bout that. Now, Naruto's strength & speed uses the same source as Rock Lee's, time at the gym; Rock Lee just shows what it looks like when you don't have duplication and energy blasts to train.

I currently posses the ability to paralyze someone right now, by breaking their fucking neck. It is a huge leap to go from that to controlling them. Inhibiting signals is pretty much the exact opposite of sending them.

Right, argue science when characters are punching buildings in half and dodging lasers because they did enough push-ups. Are you even aware of how that character was actually paralyzing people? When it's explained by "sheer force of murderous intent", nobody is going to question it being used to make people follow your commands instead.

Mesmerists are not required to be magic. Nobody calls what they did to Raymond Shaw in the Manchurian Candidate magic. The number of stage magicians and hypnotherapists in various stories out there aren't claimed to be magic any more than Houdini analogues.

[sabs]

But Naruto is Japanese Anime. We already know that Japanese/Chinese Anime/Beliefs are slanted towards with great training comes enlightenment which gives you all sorts of awesome chi powers.

He's breaking mountains because he's trained/focused his Chi to strengthen his blows. You cannot use Animated Kung Fu and go "they're just regular folk" because it's already clear they are not. They have the power source: Kung Fucking Fu.

It's a power source today. The shit Monks can do in Real life is pretty impressive. I would not call a real Kung Fu master, Mundane, and certainly not when it's taken to it's Anime extreme.

[RadiantPhoenix]

For me, the boundary between "Charles Atlas superpower" and "magic that anyone could learn" is when it stops being a power developed by an extreme application of "normal" training and requires you to figure something out.

A superpower gained by practicing arithmetic all day every day really fast and with really big numbers is 'a Charles Atlas superpower'.

A superpower gained by figuring out that there exists an integer between three and four is 'magic that anyone could learn'.

[virgil]

We've already extensively covered humans lacking magic and divinity doing extraordinary things that aren't anime in origin. Milo of Croton, Cu Chulainn, Munchausen, etc.
Do I really need to repeat myself here? When your definition of the Charles Atlas/mundane power source is "stuff that can't keep up with magic", you're tautologically making it sub-par. Frank's right that people are predisposed to dislike mundane power sources, which too many of you are doing right now by refusing to even let it have nice things.

[ishy]

I thought the point was that a Charles Atlas / mundane power is magic.
But the sfx associated with it might mean you can't do shit with it.

[Kaelik]

We've already extensively covered humans lacking magic and divinity doing extraordinary things that aren't anime in origin. Milo of Croton, Cu Chulainn, Munchausen, etc.
Do I really need to repeat myself here? When your definition of the Charles Atlas/mundane power source is "stuff that can't keep up with magic", you're tautologically making it sub-par. Frank's right that people are predisposed to dislike mundane power sources, which too many of you are doing right now by refusing to even let it have nice things.

Cu Chulainn being maybe Charles Atlas doesn't mean that other people who aren't Charles Atlas suddenly are.

Telepathy and mesmerism aren't things that come from training really hard, so they are not in fact an extrapolation of training really hard at things people already do.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Telepathy and mesmerism aren't things that come from training really hard, so they are not in fact an extrapolation of training really hard at things people already do.

"I listened to very quiet things a lot and now I can even hear other people's thoughts"
"I practiced staring contests really a lot and now it lets me compel people to do things"

[Wrathzog]

I fucking hate this bullshit Wrathzog. I'm not going to keep going to see how long you can troll. Say something that makes sense or I am putting you on ignore.

I will admit that this is my fuck up. I got distracted at work and hit submit before finishing what I was trying to get across.
But seriously, I don't know what's so hard to understand about the first sentence here. You were obviously trying for some sort of appeal to ethics or something and I was trying to explain that it wasn't going to work.
Google defines racism as : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.
For me, that's Yellow Americans.
I'm not Trolling. I'm just saying. If you want to try appealing to something else, you're welcome to do so. I do not recommend Ethics or Morality.

It doesn't make sense for you to direct an argument for using words other than mundane at him, because he is on your side in that argument.

We can't do that because the M-Word is causing a lot of grief. No one should be using it. And because the English Language is filled with shit like NUANCE, we can find more accurate words or terms to describe what we want.
I'm picking Extraordinary and apparently a lot of people have migrated over to Charles Atlas Super Power. I'm cool with this.

But when Mistborn-Sama was all "Nothing interesting can be put into that category," virgil instantly responded with Nine of them and his response (and yours for that matter) to that was "NUH UH NO NO NO NO NO SHUT UP BECAUSE I SAID SO."
That is petulant and anti-intellectual.

Also, Telepathy is totally doable. Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_to_Me

-e-
Hit submit to early. Filled in a few blanks.
tags. ugh

[Mistborn]

But when Mistborn-Sama was all "Nothing interesting can be put into that category," virgil instantly responded with Nine of them and his response (and yours for that matter) to that was "NUH UH NO NO NO NO NO SHUT UP BECAUSE I SAID SO."
That is petulant and anti-intellectual.

Well get a load of this horses ass. Since you're throwing a fit about it let be tell you why those specific items are retarded.

Interesting powers that can be given Charles Atlas descriptors

• Flight (Black Condor)
• Invisibility (The Shadow)
• Mind Control (mesmirists w/a watch)

These examples all have some things in common they are all (1) outdated and (2) not fantasy.

The Black Condor is an extra retarded example to use because they changed into being something else. They did that because learning to fly because you were raised by condors is retarded.

Like sempai has been saying none of you mundane fapping conksuckers have given an explanation of how your totes mundane superpowers are any more mundane the wizards spells.

Listen if eventually the fighter goes shit let's be Goku that's cool. Let's not beat around the bush he's still using pletobium only it's pletobium gleaned from being really good at punching people rather than reading books.

[Aryxbez]

then there are the conksuckers who want to fight a dragon the size of city bus with scales like supple adamantine and mastery over time and death but they want to be totally mundane about it.

Whoa, are you quoting Caedrus in my sig? obviously not unique to one poster, just found it interestingly similar.

I'm a huge supporter of Charles Atlas Superpowers, warrior type guys around around stomping earthquakes, tossing Slaads, and wrestling tornados (to maybe later hit people with them). However, I do recognize as been reminded by ishy, and pointed out by Frank, the conflicts that still remain even when they're doing similar things.

So, to help, I do think you need to spell it out conceptually to the Fantasy Fans of how warrior types are capable of doing mighty and awesome things at higher levels that rival that of the most powerful magic (if not surpass in some places). Using popular characters to appeal to people's sense of fantasy, and wanting to play Fantasy characters they've always wanted emulated. As well want to make the rules for the abilities clear, so you don't get ambiguities where DM's try to use them to limit and screw the player(s), like with various unclear clauses in 3rd edition.

Also, how is Tarzan abilities not cool? Samurai Jack technically did that so he could do jump induced flight, Tome of Virtue "Totemist" is based on being imbued with monster-esque abilities, and that's not lame either. Problem is, you're saying its retarded, without providing reasons "why", something isn't such just because one said it is.

[Foxwarrior]

Mistborn: You're attacking Virgil as though he was talking about mundane superpowers, when he quite explicitly said Charles Atlas superpowers.

The problem with Charles Atlas superpowers, really, is a setting comprehensibility problem: with magic, you can and probably should establish some explicit power source which does not exist in the real world; but with Charles Atlas superpowers, your power source is often "having done something a bunch of times". The very existence of Charles Atlas superpowers subtly and insidiously overrides most basic laws of physics, so that you can no longer tell where the realism ends and the fantasy begins; nobody ever writes an RPG rulebook long enough to describe a complete new set of physical laws in detail.

Feel free to answer this question: "In 1317, this grandfather clock was first wound. Every day since then for the past hundred years, it has been wound again so that it could continue to tell time precisely and repeatedly. How much more accurate is it now than when it was built?"

I prefer the Dune/Hulk solution to Charles Atlas superpowers, really: your character is exposed to some form of observable phlebotinum that does not exist in the real world.

[Kaelik]

Telepathy and mesmerism aren't things that come from training really hard, so they are not in fact an extrapolation of training really hard at things people already do.

"I listened to very quiet things a lot and now I can even hear other people's thoughts"
"I practiced staring contests really a lot and now it lets me compel people to do things"

I listened to very quiet things a lot and now I can teleport.

I practiced staring contests really a lot and now I can teleport.

Both of those make exactly as much sense as what you said. Just because we use the verb "hear" for people's thoughts does not mean that it is in any fucking way related. Just because you are more patient than another person does not mean you can mind control them.

There is a straight qualitative break that isn't there for dodging, speed, strength, ect.

But seriously, I don't know what's so hard to understand about the first sentence here. You were obviously trying for some sort of appeal to ethics or something and I was trying to explain that it wasn't going to work.

No you dumb shit, I was obviously trying to appeal to the definitions of words. Racist has a definition, I choose racism not because it is "bad" but because it is a specific thing that most people would claim to not be, and that most people aren't. So when I pointed out that we don't compromise on whether or not something fits the meaning of the word racism when it clearly does not. Since I am apparently talking to a fucking racist, I'll resort to the absurd.

If I claim you are a blue turtle elf, and you disagree, we don't compromise on calling you "Blue Turtle Elf Enough." Likewise, because swinging your sword so hard it shoots out a crest of air/spirit force that damages enemies is not mundane, I will not compromise by calling it "mundane enough."

We can't do that because the M-Word is causing a lot of grief. No one should be using it. And because the English Language is filled with shit like NUANCE, we can find more accurate words or terms to describe what we want.

Wholly fucking dumb shit dumb shit. How many times do I have to explain this. Yes, the M-word is causing a lot of grief. And you are advocating for not using the M word. And Mistborn is advocating for not using the M word. So when you argue with him that he should stop using the M word, you are being stupid, because you are arguing with someone who agrees with you and only uses the M word to advocate that other people stop using the M word.

But when Mistborn-Sama was all "Nothing interesting can be put into that category," virgil instantly responded with Nine of them and his response (and yours for that matter) to that was "NUH UH NO NO NO NO NO SHUT UP BECAUSE I SAID SO."
That is petulant and anti-intellectual.

No, what is petulant and antiintellectual is you lying about what people are saying. No one responded with anything in form or substance that said "No Shut Up" without reasons. Virgil and I have continued a conversation about which of those things are or are not Charles Atlas.

To complain that we didn't give complete comprehensive reasons why 5-8 on his list are not Charles Atlas is hypocritical bullshit. Virgil asserted they were with absolutely no backing other than specific examples, we asserted they are not, and did so by attacking his specific examples. We advanced as much if not more reasoning in our favor as he did in his post.

You lying sack of shit.

[Mistborn]

Also, how is Tarzan abilities not cool? Samurai Jack technically did that so he could do jump induced flight, Tome of Virtue "Totemist" is based on being imbued with monster-esque abilities, and that's not lame either. Problem is, you're saying its retarded, without providing reasons "why", something isn't such just because one said it is.

Tarzan and Samurai Jack are not 20 level concepts. Now this is the 10 level thread so I will concede that they could be 10 level concepts. Remember in D&D you learn to fly at level 5 and start teleporting at level 9 and it only gets crazier from there. Heck D&D is perfectly fine with handing out undodgeable attacks at level 1.

The problem with the Charles atlas guy is that he does not change while the game itself fundamentally changes every 5 levels you can not make that work in a way that isn't retarded.

[Foxwarrior]

Telepathy and mesmerism aren't things that come from training really hard, so they are not in fact an extrapolation of training really hard at things people already do.

"I listened to very quiet things a lot and now I can even hear other people's thoughts"
"I practiced staring contests really a lot and now it lets me compel people to do things"

I listened to very quiet things a lot and now I can teleport.

I practiced staring contests really a lot and now I can teleport.

Both of those make exactly as much sense as what you said. Just because we use the verb "hear" for people's thoughts does not mean that it is in any fucking way related. Just because you are more patient than another person does not mean you can mind control them.

There is a straight qualitative break that isn't there for dodging, speed, strength, ect.

Firing neurons make incredibly quiet sounds. Presumably the lower-level effects you could get by listening to very quiet things would be effects like: Hearing somebody's hit points by listening to their organs; identifying a liquid's chemical composition by listening to it sloshing around in a cup; predicting the weather in other countries several days from now by listening to the wind; hearing a certain increase in tension as someone a few hundred feet away gets ready to kill you; identifying magic items held by people in the next room by hearing how the air moves around them; identifying the lay of the land for a mile around by listening to the slight echoes in someone's speech; and so on.

Okay, I'm not sure how to describe staring-based compulsion in a purely quantitative way, but "I practiced hypnotism a lot and now I can rewrite the personalities and memories of entire crowds of people with a wave of my hand and a few short sentences" is a perfectly good (/insane) replacement. "I practiced understanding what people like a lot and now I can make anyone love me forever within 6 seconds of meeting them" works too, if you prefer.

While it was sort of fun to write all these ideas, I still agree with Lord Mistborn that they sound rather retarded. I obviously don't agree that Charles Atlas superpowers are not 20 level concepts.

[virgil]

Telepathy and mesmerism aren't things that come from training really hard, so they are not in fact an extrapolation of training really hard at things people already do.

There are people in real life hypnotizing others to the point there are actual laws regulating it. People are making cold reads with sufficient accuracy that even they start thinking they're psychic. The idea that they could practice to the point of actual doing brain scans and mental domination through practice really shouldn't be that much of a mental leap; unless you're that simple.

[Wrathzog]

Likewise, because swinging your sword so hard it shoots out a crest of air/spirit force that damages enemies is not mundane, I will not compromise by calling it "mundane enough."

Would it be Extraordinary? Because that's what I'm talking about.

And Mistborn is advocating for not using the M word.

He is STILL ACTIVELY USING IT. If what you're saying was actually True, he would have switched over to another word that would be more accurate to the point that he's trying to get across.

No one responded with anything in form or substance that said "No Shut Up" without reasons.

1,2, and 3 aren't enough to keep of with people who have real classes

4 involves metagamey shenanigans and thus is dumb.

5,6,7,8 are all retarded and that's really all their is to say on the matter.

Yeah, you're exactly right. This is perfectly acceptable in any debate.

You are Straight Up Retarded and that's really all there is to say on the matter.

[Wrathzog]

But Kaelik does make one fair point. The burden of proof does not just fall on him and Mistborn, so here we go:

1-3) Dodging, Super Speed, and Super Strength - These are pretty obvious to the point where explaining them would be silly. It is completely possible to boost all three of these characteristics simply through the proper type and intensity of training. And maybe eating right. Even to the point where you can outrun the blast range of a fireball or punch through steel.
Rock Lee, as was mentioned before, is probably the best example for all of the above as his inability to do NINJA MAGIC and how he attempts to compensate is what defines him as a character.
Joke Option: Onepunch Man.

4) Foresight/Scrying/Mind Reading - We do this shit every day. "Well, it's noon, so the lunch hour rush is starting up so I better avoid major roads for a while." "My boss isn't in at the moment... and his secretary is gone too. Coincidence or is the rumor that they're having an affair true?"
The difference between us and a fucking smart hero guy, is that they can apply that type of analytical thought with more detail, on a larger scale, and/or with more accuracy. The keys to this are Experience, Attention to Detail, and being fucking smart.
The clip from Black Lagoon was a pretty good example actually.

5) Flight - Frankly, I can't think of way to grant this to someone without Mechanical assistance. But, if this is something like Shingeki no Kyojin, where the use of certain types of equipment would require a certain amount of training (requiring flight checks or something), we can get something close enough.
Even if we don't want to get all steam punk spiderman, we can just look at something as simple as a Hang Glider or the story of Icarus for possible sources of inspiration.

6) Invisibility - High Levels of stealth are effectively as good as Invisibility. You get examples of this in basically EVERY MODERN STEALTH SHOOTER EVER.
But this is pretty much already implemented in D&D. Anything that would stop a dude with a 200 stealth check will probably also counter Invisibility (Mindsight, Blindsight, tremorsense, etc). Even Hide in Plain sight can be done without magic (albeit with restrictions like the Ranger).

7) Mind Control - This shit happens in real life.
I don't understand how this is even questionable.

8) Telepathy/Mind Reading - I'll point to Lie to Me as my example for this again. The show really only does the Mind Reading via Empathy/Insight part, which is just one-way communication.
But taken to the next level, you create a Sign Language out of tiny, nearly unnoticeable movements like Micro-expressions and now you suddenly have a way of communicating to someone and no one would even realize that it's happening.
So, this aspect of Telepathy is arguably doable even in real life.
Communicating over super long distances or through walls without attracting attention probably aren't doable without assistance. I can't think of a way to replicate those effects.

9) Resurrection - I think I could rationalize staying alive or even conscious when someone should probably be dead. That's pretty iconic in all forms of fiction.
Proper Resurrection, as in getting back up after death? That seems unlikely. I will cede this one.

I'll also throw in the following:
Blindsight.

[Aryxbez]

Tarzan and Samurai Jack are not 20 level concepts. Now this is the 10 level thread so I will concede that they could be 10 level concepts. Remember in D&D you learn to fly at level 5 and start teleporting at level 9 and it only gets crazier from there. Heck D&D is perfectly fine with handing out undodgeable attacks at level 1.

The problem with the Charles atlas guy is that he does not change while the game itself fundamentally changes every 5 levels you can not make that work in a way that isn't retarded.

While this is true, I don't think I was regarding if they were level 20th or otherwise concepts. Albeit my question was a bit rushed (added last minute to new posts), referring to where you said that Black Condor's backstory was "retarded". Implying a kind of "Tarzan backstory" raised by [insert creatures here], gaining their customs, and perhaps abilities, to be a bad thing. Even the Races of War by Frank/K has mentioned that it's a classic story with some merit. So, I was asking how is the idea of a more fantastical Tarzan character being reason gained his abilities to be a bad thing? (regardless of the level of their abilities)

Oh, and I'm aware Flight =5th-10th, though good to know level range of teleport.

How so that the Charles Atlas character doesn't change if I may ask? I imagine One Piece characters, even as they've gotten stronger, ability wise haven't changed enough to scale to 15th or 20th.

[virgil]

5) Flight - Frankly, I can't think of way to grant this to someone without Mechanical assistance. But, if this is something like Shingeki no Kyojin, where the use of certain types of equipment would require a certain amount of training (requiring flight checks or something), we can get something close enough.
Even if we don't want to get all steam punk spiderman, we can just look at something as simple as a Hang Glider or the story of Icarus for possible sources of inspiration.

If we're training to super strength sufficiently to lift and throw trains, then punches can create shockwaves that can create thrust. Even D&D allows for the Balance skill to get sufficient to walk on water without magical aid, and it's no loss to upgrade this to clouds.

So, this aspect of Telepathy is arguably doable even in real life.
Communicating over super long distances or through walls without attracting attention probably aren't doable without assistance. I can't think of a way to replicate those effects.

Training your senses to be able to hear a pin drop from across the street, so you'll just hear their heartbeat and other autonomic processes; and from there, you're reading them.

Proper Resurrection, as in getting back up after death? That seems unlikely. I will cede this one.

He was only mostly dead, but he got better. I, Doctor Swineheart, can fix any wound! And they've done this before through people who find their souls in the afterlife, and they just plain punch their way back to the realm of the living. Just because you don't have magic, doesn't mean the rules of souls and the afterlife don't exist for you; and at this point, you have a medium where you either browbeat the celestial bureaucrat that there was a 'mistake' in the paperwork or punch the barriers of death back into your body where you fix yourself from there.

[Foxwarrior]

Joke Option: Onepunch Man.

"That's just bog standard strength training! And it's not even hard!"

That link is beautiful, and it makes me wonder why you're taking the side it makes fun of.

[OgreBattle]

That's just.. dumb Ogre.
I'm sorry, but that's like saying, "I want Miracles to be true, but without that pesky Divinity stuff."

The critical part is that only the DM knows this super-secret rule, the player of the Fighter must never know.

[Wrathzog]

If we're training to super strength sufficiently to lift and throw trains, then punches can create shockwaves that can create thrust. Even D&D allows for the Balance skill to get sufficient to walk on water without magical aid, and it's no loss to upgrade this to clouds.

Yeah I guess there's a precedent in this with some of NASA's ideas on space travel (Parachute + Nuclear Bombs).

He was only mostly dead, but he got better. I, Doctor Swineheart, can fix any wound! And they've done this before through people who find their souls in the afterlife, and they just plain punch their way back to the realm of the living. Just because you don't have magic, doesn't mean the rules of souls and the afterlife don't exist for you; and at this point, you have a medium where you either browbeat the celestial bureaucrat that there was a 'mistake' in the paperwork or punch the barriers of death back into your body where you fix yourself from there.

I was trying to avoid things that'd have to be set up at the system or setting level rules or would require DM intervention to work. Otherwise, you're completely right, there's a lot of precedent for coming back to life because you Tricked the devil, punched his face off, or performed a few quests for him.

That link is beautiful, and it makes me wonder why you're taking the side it makes fun of.

It's simple, I want to play D&D, play a Fighter, and be completely viable from levels 1-20. I would like to do this by Expanding what the Fighter can do as opposed to simply neutering everything else (like 4E did).
People think that it's impossible (vehemently). I disagree.

and because I'm fucking wired on Caffeine and can't sleep, some things that Extraordinary Powers can't really accomplish:

1) Magic - This is kind of obvious but it needs to be said. Extraordinary abilities are never magical. Never ever never. That doesn't mean that there can't be overlap between magical and non-magical effects. All it means is that you can Ground Stomp an Earthquake while inside of an AMF.
This also means that beyond face-stabbing, we have limited purview over magic and magical effects. We can't mess with a Wizard's Spell Slots or Mana Pool or whatever. We can't counter a spell once it's been cast. We have to dispel magical traps by walking through them and pretending like it didn't hurt.

2) Teleportation - Now, at a tactical level, Teleportation and Super-Speed are mechanically indistinguishable because you just place your character somewhere within sight and no one can do anything about it. At a Strategic level, Teleportation straight beats any form of Moves Fast because one has to deal with travel time and the other doesn't.
There are examples of Cutting through dimensions or the fabric of space- time to get somewhere, but that also usually requires a magical blade or something. I don't consider that a win.

3) Polymorphing - The closest you can get to this is to Dress up like a bear, have bear strength, and LARP as a bear. But at the end of the day you are not a bear, you will never be a bear, you're just a furry wearing a rug and it is not the same.
Also good luck trying to become something that isn't a biped or has more than four limbs.

4) Messing with Time - So, while a Super Fast guy can emulate the spell Time Stop, it doesn't actually mean that he's stopped time... he's just moving super fast. There is no way to actually influence time outside of personal time dilation. You can't rewind time, erase time, step out of time, or whatever.

5) Fate/Destiny/Luck Shenanigans - Getting through adventures because you can mechanically force Fate to intervene doesn't make you a hero. It just means that you're actually incompetent. These sorts of shenanigans fall under a completely separate power source (Divine, Luck, or DM Pity) and we didn't need them anyways.

6) Souls - We can't directly mess with these things without magical or technical assistance. Not even our own soul (unless we're dead, but this otherwise falls under the domain of Ki users, hippies, and necromancers). This is also what makes dealing with Ghosts and the Ethereal so tricky for extraordinary characters (always remember to have Iron, Salt, and a Torch).

[Mistborn]

Well this thread has become irredeemably shitty. None of these things you people are masturbating over are mundane. There all pletobium level stuff only they work because fuck you that's why. None of this bullshit is really genera appropriate for a fantasy game.

So let's flip this argument turnways. People throw bitch fits about evasion and the ToB already people will throw down your game in disgust if they see the kind of bullshit that you guys are writing up. They're right to do so because it's stupid.

So why is giving the mundane characters the "developers touch themselves at night to boring character concepts" power source rather than a non stupid one better then them eventually getting a real power source.

[NineInchNall]

No, people are not right to throw bitch fits about evasion and ToB.

What is possible and what is normal are mutable and relative to the context in which shit goes down, and we are right to complain when the context is violated. No one throws bitch fits about Gandalf TKing Saruman across a room, but have someone do the same thing in an episode of House, and everyone would have reason to do some serious eye rolling.

In D&D land, it is possible and normal for agile, roguish people to stand at the center of a 40-ft wide explosion and be unharmed. In D&D land, it is possible, though less common, to train enough to be able to make your swords catch fire and leave a trail of flames behind you as you run.

Don't say the people who complain about evasion and Desert Wind are rational: they are incorrectly evaluating actions taken in one context by the the norms of another context. That is just plain wrong.