Good and Evil in D&D

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shadzar
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Post by shadzar »

fectin wrote:Within that, the good-evil, law/chaos grid is an extremely simple way
except it is not, because it assume that lawful is directly related to evil and also directly related to good. they are two parts, not one whole.

again the problem was calling the opposition of order and chaos as lawful and chaotic.

if you replace "lawful" with "order" you will see EVERY defense of the 9-pocket system is flawed. because order would be following the laws of society, but not all laws are good. order would also be following the laws of a thieves guild, since that itself is the chosen society of whoever joined it. not all of those "laws" may be good, so it isnt simple and cannot do anything you say it does, thus we have Batman that is EVERY alignment in it at the same time.

for all you people hate pre-WotC D&D, it is funny you defend one of Gary's biggest fuck ups ever. what is even sadder is you don't even understand what the thing is because you are caught up on incorrect terms made into game terms.

"law" was wrongly used to represent "order" because it was a catchier word. Lawful Good, as opposed to Ordered Good. the connotations of "law" in the term has confused people more than the connotations "order" could have ever brought.

"Hey this god ORDERED me to do it."

the alignment system naming and poor explanation has caused more problems than the repeated use of "level" for everything that has degrees of advancement in one direction or the other. :bash:
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Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by fectin »

shadzar wrote:
fectin wrote:Within that, the good-evil, law/chaos grid is an extremely simple way
except it is not, because it assume that lawful is directly related to evil and also directly related to good. they are two parts, not one whole.
Uh, no. You're just wrong. Try again.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by shadzar »

Voss wrote:
shadzar wrote: like most of the game, it requires agreement from the group of players. in the most direct way it requires what the DM decides.
...
was this something his deity would see as good?
was this something his deity would see as lawful?
...
answering those two questions gives you all the information you need to judge any and every action in the game based on the game world's view.
...

as i said, you cannot understand how to see the game world as something not of this earth, and leave behind the real world while in the game world. the concept just escapes you.
Irrelevant. Even if we accept, rather absurdly, that there is zero overlap between real-world morality and fantasy morality when most of the same issues apply (and while referencing basic issues-in-common like murder, rape and slavery), your system still falls apart. You're trying to claim a single POV for the game world (moral absolutism), absurdly different views of good/evil by deity (moral relativism) and putting it up for a vote to the players, with possibly a veto or even fiat by the DM. That is utterly irreconcilable, and fucking stupid.
or you just trust the DM to do the right thing, but around here you are all so buttsore from playing with or being bad DMs that you still forge weapons for the DM v player war and cannot in any way shape or form trust ANY DM/GM for any game.
What I don't understand why this suddenly comes up in the discussion at all. It isn't relevant in any way.
you still dont get it.

and it comes up because be it TTRPG or FR video game, the DM will be the deciding factor on how it works. in the video game the DM will be the scripted elements that cannot be changed by the player.

which goes further to prove that people will buy anything some proclaimed "professional" (which should be read: one's who job/profession is; as opposed to THE ALL KNOWING) better than your own friends you game with.

you lot really are pathetic dregs.

and there is zero overlap because of the 4th wall. if you cannot separate real world from the game, then you may end up in steam tunnels one day. it would be better you learn the difference.

morality in fantasy settings are based solely on their own world, that is why the 4th wall exists to keep the reader from falling into the fantasy world and forgetting how to return to the real world. that is what fantasy is all about.

killing in Harry Potter is a bad thing to do, it is one of the major plot points, yet the uber-good guy must kill the bad guy, and it is seem as a good act. evil is good. funny how that works and MANY people accept that right? not really when you realize they don't forget how to leave the fantasy story world behind and return to the real one.

i can only wager, that you would love to be the next hitler and kill whatever race/religion/etc off that you dislike to better mankind since you dont think people are allowed ideas that differ from your own.

you rally need to learn that a fantasy world has nothing to do with the real world that you dont make it. and since you do NOT make every fantasy world, then you have no say in everything that goes on. you will enjoy entertainment better when you learn this.

so why is killing a good thing in FR? because that is the views in FR, if that is the case. i forget the full question that was this thread at the moment, but nothing around here stays on topic long now does it?
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by shadzar »

fectin wrote:
shadzar wrote:
fectin wrote:Within that, the good-evil, law/chaos grid is an extremely simple way
except it is not, because it assume that lawful is directly related to evil and also directly related to good. they are two parts, not one whole.
Uh, no. You're just wrong. Try again.
1. draw the grid.

2. move from "best" viewed to "worst" viewed.

the fact a paladin must be LG, but nobody ever agrees on what LG is, proves me right. they are intrinsically connected in many peoples minds, and how that happened i cannot begin to figure out.

law is associated with good, and chaos is associated with evil.

it shouldnt be that way, therefore why i say uncross them and leave they as two components. like a car has a color for the outside and a bolor for the interior/trim you end up with Green/Brown, not Green Brown.

thus so alignment should be as it is two parts. Lawful/Good, not Lawful Good.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by fectin »

Image
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Post by Voss »

shadzar wrote: and there is zero overlap because of the 4th wall. if you cannot separate real world from the game, then you may end up in steam tunnels one day. it would be better you learn the difference.

morality in fantasy settings are based solely on their own world, that is why the 4th wall exists to keep the reader from falling into the fantasy world and forgetting how to return to the real world. that is what fantasy is all about.
:bash:

No. No one goes to fantasy worlds. They read or watch or create stories about them. Whatever bizarre ideas you've formulated from a trivial bit of TV camera jargon is irrelevant. The 4th wall isn't some bizarre barrier between reality and fictional dimensions. It involves not building the 4th wall of a set, so the crew can film interior locations. Fantasy is about exploring ideas in entirely fictional settings- there is no 'forgetting' of the real world.

Morality in fantasy isn't a creation of that world. It is a _fiction_, created by the author, not the world. To make the fiction relevant to the audience, or any meaningful moral debate, it has to be related to modern morals. Otherwise it is completely irrelevant and worthless navel gazing. That you think people can get 'caught up' in fantasy like some Jack Chick propaganda piece is utterly disturbing.
Last edited by Voss on Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by shadzar »

you need to get help learning to rad as most around here. never was it said the world created anything. you jsut like putting words into palces where they were never said because you fail at communication skills and english.

lets touch on one point you say though, and not your idiocy of not understanding fantasy wrolds because you dont know how to "forget" them when you return to the ral world...
To make the fiction relevant to the audience
YOU are not the only fucker that matters, nor will evrything be made JUST FOR YOU. so you have to remove yourself form that "audience" insomuch as you feel your opinion is the only one that matters. you, like everyone else, is a shit stain on the drawers of the universe and will be forgotten in less than a century. you are not the only person that things are made for.

when you realize that, then you will understand how things work and why the audience things are made for is greater than your arrogant self-centered ass.

thus for those who do really understand what the 4th wall is, before TV ever existed... they have an audience of "smarter than a 5th grader" which you can only hope to become one of.

if you want to know more about what the 4th was is, you might find the analogy of a glass-bottom boat. that may help you understand it as a window into another world and also the thing which blocks the "viewer" from interacting with it.

in TTRPGs and vidja games, this can be warped, but YOU must understand when to stop warping it otherwise you fall through it Alice.

and for your stupidity, there are plenty of people that get caught up in fantasy or fictional settings unable to return to the real world. look it up.

here are some names of those such people:
Glen Britt
John Malone
Mitt Romney

not to mention autistic persons, etc....

get an education. once you pass elementary/primary schooling come back and try again.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by deaddmwalking »

In the 9 alignment system, you can be lawful without being good. You can be Lawful Evil, so one can't really argue that Lawful really means good.

Generally, Neutral Good is considered 'the most good' because they're good without regard to Law or Chaos.

A lawful good character believes that society is best when there are just laws. A good character can have conflict when the laws are unjust. Since it is a Cartesian Graph, you can have characters in the LG corner that are more or less Lawful than each other.

I have issues with the D&D alignment system, but it isn't that Lawful is synonymous with Good.
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Post by shadzar »

deaddmwalking wrote:I have issues with the D&D alignment system, but it isn't that Lawful is synonymous with Good.
which would be one of the axis' or something else?
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by JonSetanta »

fectin wrote:Image
I've read all about timecubes and STILL don't understand it.
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Post by fectin »

Me either.

I think that it's essentially that e.g. England goes through a day which partially overlaps our American day. I remain unclear on why that might be interesting, or on why there would be four (as opposed to some other number, or an infinite number).
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by Voss »

shadzar wrote:you need to get help learning to rad as most around here. never was it said the world created anything. you jsut like putting words into palces where they were never said because you fail at communication skills and english.
Oh really? 'ability to rad' aside:
shadzar the forgetful idiot wrote:morality in fantasy settings are based solely on their own world
Looks like you did.

To make the fiction relevant to the audience
YOU are not the only fucker that matters, nor will evrything be made JUST FOR YOU.
No shit. This is why I said 'audience' and not 'me.' I can understand the difference between singular and plural, self and others.

thus for those who do really understand what the 4th wall is, before TV ever existed... they have an audience of "smarter than a 5th grader" which you can only hope to become one of.
I'm hoping you're referring to theatre...
if you want to know more about what the 4th was is, you might find the analogy of a glass-bottom boat. that may help you understand it as a window into another world and also the thing which blocks the "viewer" from interacting with it.

in TTRPGs and vidja games, this can be warped, but YOU must understand when to stop warping it otherwise you fall through it Alice.
...but somehow you aren't. A metaphor then?
and for your stupidity, there are plenty of people that get caught up in fantasy or fictional settings unable to return to the real world. look it up.
Apparently not a metaphor. You really are taking a Jack Chick position. Or you literally believe in an actual rabbit hole that leads to Wonderland. Either way, stay off the drugs and check yourself into an institution.


Anyway, as this has wandered from 'D&D morality' to 'shadzar's ever more tenuous grasp on reality' I think I'll wander off and probably cleanse myself. On the off-chance that insanity really is contagious. Seems ridiculous, but why take unnecessary risks?
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Post by TiaC »

Huh, I wasn't expecting Shadzar to cross the line from crotchety grognard to delusional schizophrenic in this thread.
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Post by silva »

Perhaps someone know whats the best level for dual classing my Berseker into a Cleric in Baldurs Gate 2 ? im in level 9 right now, I thought about doing this at the enxt level or perhaps in 11.

Any thoughts ?
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Post by Kaelik »

TiaC wrote:Huh, I wasn't expecting Shadzar to cross the line from crotchety grognard to delusional schizophrenic in this thread.
To be fair, he probably jumps back and forth over the line all the time and we just don't notice because he is completely unintelligible most of the time.
silva wrote:Perhaps someone know whats the best level for dual classing my Berseker into a Cleric in Baldurs Gate 2 ? im in level 9 right now, I thought about doing this at the enxt level or perhaps in 11.

Any thoughts ?
Are you using an XP uncapper?
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Post by silva »

Kaelik wrote:Are you using an XP uncapper?
Huh.. no. Its the BG 2 Enhanced Edition from Steam. It comes with ToB I think.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:Me either.

I think that it's essentially that e.g. England goes through a day which partially overlaps our American day. I remain unclear on why that might be interesting, or on why there would be four (as opposed to some other number, or an infinite number).
Time Cube is a concept developed by untreated schizophrenic Gene Ray. He is obsessed with pairs and dualities, and reacts in a paranoid and antagonistic manner when presented with things that are singular, odd, or simply unpaired. For Gene Ray, the best things are things which can be expressed as pairs of pairs, which for reasons of impenetrable paralogic he has decided to call "cubes."

The "time cube" is his construction of the day as a pair of pairs: dawn and dusk, night and day. This fits his ideal construction of concepts, and he angrily denounces people who talk about parts of the day in an unpaired fashion as "evil." Gene Ray is against monotheism, homosexuality, one world government, and unicycles. Anything which appears to be unpaired is false at best and probably actively evil in his limited world view.

Time cube is a high volume crazy tirade, but it's not actually terribly complicated. It's basically just what Two Face would write if he descended further into madness to the point that he was no longer able to hold apparently intelligible conversations with the people around him.

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Post by Ancient History »

And if you step farther back, it's not without precedent either. There's a lot of philosophical monoism/dualism conflict in history - monotheism versus dualistic god pairs being the most obvious - and I think Dave Sim even dipped his wick into it in the later Cerebus books when he was off his meds. So really, it's probably some fundamental biochemical imbalance concerning pattern recognition that makes artifacts abhorrent to some people.
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Post by Tumbling Down »

silva wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Are you using an XP uncapper?
Huh.. no. Its the BG 2 Enhanced Edition from Steam. It comes with ToB I think.
Okay, I'm not really familiar with that. Does it still come with an Override folder containing two files named "XPCap" and "XPLevel"?

Re: Dual-classing. Either do it now at 9 (probably the best solution) or wait until level 13 (+½ an attack).
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Post by Kaelik »

If it comes with Throne of Baal the XP cap is I think 8 million XP.

You can either dual class at level 2 and be able to specialize but still only be Cleric 39, you can dual class at level 12 and be able to be a Berserker 12/Cleric 39, or you can dual class at level 13 and be a Berserker 13/Cleric 38 and get the benefit of the faster attack speed. I believe that BGII prevents you from dual classing into a third class, but if I am wrong, let me know and I'll give further suggestions.

The advantage to 13 is you get that last extra attack speed boost of fighters before you transfer.
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Post by fectin »

Huh. Well, I guess that fits with the things time cube says, but I'm still completely lost as to why it would be interesting. it's like asserting loudly and angrily that every year has solstices and equinoxes: so what?
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
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Post by shadzar »

silva wrote:Perhaps someone know whats the best level for dual classing my Berseker into a Cleric in Baldurs Gate 2 ? im in level 9 right now, I thought about doing this at the enxt level or perhaps in 11.

Any thoughts ?
if it is a single player game, where you are not involving other human players, then do whenever you want how you want. it is a video game, so you can load a previous save i assume.

"dual" means you are a human? so does it follow 2nd edition rules like the previous BG games, and you lose access to Berserker class features until you get to a level high enough in cleric? also you can no longer advance in berserker after becoming cleric?

if so, then it would really depend on how much more berserker bonuses you want before becoming a 1st level cleric.
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Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:Huh. Well, I guess that fits with the things time cube says, but I'm still completely lost as to why it would be interesting. it's like asserting loudly and angrily that every year has solstices and equinoxes: so what?
Within his paralogical reference frame, things which are paired are balanced, proper, and morally good. While unpaired things are unbalanced, improper, and morally evil. So when he posits that the day itself is continuously in paired pairs, he is stating that the universe itself is fundamentally on the side of righteousness (not that Gene Ray would condone the use of the word "universe"), while people who talk about days as if they were singular (and thus immoral) things are attempting to hide this great truth. These people are ignorant at best, fooled by the great monist conspiracy that his schizophrenic delusions have invented, if not being members of that wicked body themselves.

The focus for Gene Ray's schizophrenia is a battle between pairs and singulars, where pairs are good and singulars are evil. So it is very important to Gene Ray to ascribe pairedness to fundamental aspects of the world around him such as time and space. The alternative, for him, would be to acknowledge that the world around him was fundamentally wicked and out to destroy him personally. He latches onto "cubic time" because it is how he manages to cling to hope in the face of otherwise overpowering paranoid delusions. He attempts to spread the word, because he believes that "cubic time" will similarly bring hope and joy to other people. I don't think that even now he understands that the vast majority of people don't actually care whether things are paired or not, and that it does not objectively matter in the slightest. Within Gene Ray's understanding of the universe, people who mock him do so because they are either "educated stupid" by the monist conspiracy and need to be enlightened - or are part of the monist conspiracy and are actively wicked and need to be killed. I don't know if Gene Ray is actually going to kill anyone, but his tirades are using more violent imagery than they were ten years ago.

As paralogical reference frames go, it's actually really simple and concise. Usually there are a lot more moving parts and contradictions to the conspiracies and crazy talk. Gene Ray's (ironically) singular obsession with pairs focuses all of his paralogic into a fairly comprehensible (if utterly wrong) paradigm. You could walk into pretty much any psych ward and talk to a schizophrenic with a world view that is way harder to make sense of, simply by being unfocused and/or contradictory. For example: I talked to one woman who believed that electrical devices had been modified by her husband on behalf of an international conspiracy to emit electric mind altering waves to suppress peoples' natural talents to view the auras emitted by stones. Also, she was pretty sure her children had been replaced by robots, and that is why she threw away all the electronic devices from her home and stopped feeding the kids. And she was genuinely puzzled as to why her husband was "mad" at her, and was unable to make the connection between having told me that she had destroyed his laptop and the fact that he was pissed off.

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Post by OgreBattle »

Now is that a Modron world view, or a Giant Frog world view?
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Post by Zaranthan »

Depends on your definition of Law and Chaos.
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