Alignment in 5E still causes arguments

[Whipstitch]

I don't really think that killing things largely because they have an Evil tag is all that intuitive or satisfying of a way to do things for most players anyway. Lots of people only get really interested when active villainy is afoot, and in such cases the perpetrators can usually be identified by something more memorable than being green on a Saturday night.

[Stinktopus]

@DSMatticus,

Orcs are a different fucking species created by an evil god. Finding white/black race comparisons in regards to orcs is a game for SJW's with too much fucking time on their hands.

[sarcasmoverdose]

@DSMatticus,

Orcs are a different fucking species created by an evil god. Finding white/black race comparisons in regards to orcs is a game for SJW's with too much fucking time on their hands.

Stormfront discusses this:
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t557530/

Chimpout is obsessed with this:
http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthrea ... n-disguise
http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthrea ... d-Bix-Nood
http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthrea ... -vs-Humans
http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthrea ... -the-Rings
http://www.chimpout.com/forum/showthrea ... me-of-Orcs

Mentioned later than OP in thread:
http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1631927
http://[EDITED].net/forum/showthread ... gers-Human
http://chimpmania.com/forum/showthread. ... e-unwanted

And the most disgusting of them all:
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t436626/

From reading and posting on the Opposing Views section of the forum, I read a lot of foolish comments from the anti's. Statements like "I know a black person who is really smart, therefore everything you say about racial intelligence differences is wrong." Well, of course, the lack of understanding of statistics this statement shows is staggering. I try to recall when in my life when I could have fallen for such a foolish statement and I can't think of when I would have.

I completely understood how there could be smart blacks and yet blacks be less intelligent than whites as a whole when I was a child. When was the first time I thought about an idea like that? When I got into Dungeons and Dragons at the age of nine or ten. I knew that elves were more agile than humans. I knew that because they had a +1 bonus (back when I started playing, now its +2) to Dexterity, I knew they were more dexterous even though the average elf had a Dexterity of 11.5 and humans could have a Dexterity of 18.

These days, orcs have an average Intelligence of 8.5 (10.5 average for 3d6, -2) and since IQ roughly corresponds to D&D Intelligence times ten, then that puts your typical orc at an average IQ of about 85 . . . who does that remind you of? Of course, even as a child (long before I was racially aware) I would have known you were a fool if you said that orcs were as smart as humans just because you had an orc character with an Intelligence of 16. So when I was ten, I apparently knew more about statistics than your typical anti does.

And this point may seem a bit silly, but it introduces an important idea that most white people are conditioned not to believe in - racial essentialism. The idea that race determines certain characteristics or tendencies. We knew that elves we dexterous, that dwarves were tough, that orcs were mean and nasty. We also knew that there were exceptions and that exceptions didn't mean that general trends didn't still apply.

D&D also has a lot about racial loyalty. Elves band together in protection of their forests. Orcs raid human villages and have to be stopped by the hero. In D&D, you have loyalty to your people and you know that sometimes a race in general can be a threat to your's.

As I've grown older over the years I've continued to enjoy role playing games and my though the games I've played have advanced beyond just fighting orcs and finding magic items - but I think that some of those ideas I was exposed to as a child were good lessons that maybe helped me come to terms with ideas that are part of beings a White Nationalist.

[DSMatticus]

@DSMatticus,

Orcs are a different fucking species created by an evil god. Finding white/black race comparisons in regards to orcs is a game for SJW's with too much fucking time on their hands.

Your refusal to answer the question is noted.

And while I'd normally just ignore your tantrum and chalk this up as close to a concession of your false dichotomy as I'm going to get, I can't help myself, because your tantrum is also impressively stupid: did you somehow miss the links to neo-nazis comparing orcs to black people, or do you just operate on some insane definition of SJW that includes neo-nazis?

[Stinktopus]

@DSMatticus,

Orcs are a different fucking species created by an evil god. Finding white/black race comparisons in regards to orcs is a game for SJW's with too much fucking time on their hands.

Your refusal to answer the question is noted.

And while I'd normally just ignore your tantrum and chalk this up as close to a concession of your false dichotomy as I'm going to get, I can't help myself, because your tantrum is also impressively stupid: did you somehow miss the links to neo-nazis comparing orcs to black people, or do you just operate on some insane definition of SJW that includes neo-nazis?

And neo-nazis are fucking retards. Being "racist" against orcs is like being "racist" against spiders.

[kzt]

Stormfront discusses this:

If you go fishing in sewers you'll find nasty stuff, as well as get covered in filth. No matter what you come up with you'll find crazies who choose to do nutty things with it. You might was well try to suppress the theory of evolution so as to stop the eugenics people. Fuck them all.

[sarcasmoverdose]

did you somehow miss the links to neo-nazis comparing orcs to black people, or do you just operate on some insane definition of SJW that includes neo-nazis?

That would actually be a logical comparison, unlike his argument, given that one is often a mirror of the other.
http://www.reddit.com/r/StormfrontorSJW/

[Prak]

Just reading the first paragraph of that Stormfront drivel made my brain die a little.

Anyway, this is one of the quickly vanishing times that TVTropes is actually helpful: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... artCulture
There's a list of instances of a fantasy culture being an actual stand in for a real culture, including the Roma-ish Rhenee and First Nations-ish Flan.

Also see [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... nfortunate Implications[/url], specifically the Literature section.

Moreover, most of the fantasy races of D&D are analogous to some real world race or culture. Elves are often painted with a weird japanese/native american pastiche, dwarves are basically scottish/norse, but, along with gnomes, have a lot of jewish stereotypes to them. Hobbits are of course peaceful englishmen, but halflings tend to be basically french or spanish.

[Voss]

Elves are often painted with a weird japanese/native american pastiche

,
I think you mean idealized Celtic. Because that is actually a thing.

halflings tend to be basically french or spanish.

You're going to have to explain that one. I've rarely seen anyone portray halflings as anything but english 'salt of the earth,' except that time during 3e Forgotten Realm when they were 'gypsies.'

[infected slut princess]

The Asians are represented by Elves. Because Elves are mysterious, exotic, and superior to all others.

[tussock]

I find myself yet again surprised that people are
[*]racist.
[*]all up in here.
[*]telling other people that racism isn't even a thing.

It's always surprising. Like you accidentally read comments on things on the internet and there it is, again. Or you read a supreme court ruling and LO! racism. Open a newspaper and it turns into racism really quickly. Which is of course "never racism" because it's "all their fault". Sometimes literally lead with "I'm not racist, but" or "People will just call me racist, but". Me sometimes, sadly.

It's just, it was invented in colonial times. Europeans didn't understand their massive material advantages and when they started doing horrible things to people in far lands who couldn't seem to raise an effective defence they decided it was God's plan that white people just enslave and murder everyone else on the planet for further material profit.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc, writ around the whole globe, and soon enough into law to defend company profits. So quick to start when others are far away, so slow to unwind in the modern day.

---

Anyway, my Orcs are war. Like, how human babies are made when a man and a woman are very much in love (and also any other time they fuck) while Orcs just spontaneously pour out of mountain caves as armies muster and land is left undefended. If you have war, you have Orcs, and after it's over you have to clean them all out of the ruins they dig themselves into, because they won't ever stop warring.

Like Goblins are the shadow cast on the world by civilisation, a distorted mirror of all our progress and grandeur beneath our very feet, Hobgoblins their soldier caste, Bugbears their foetid rulers come to hunt in the world of day. Kobolds are the dream-children of sleeping Dragons, who are themselves the guardian seed of elemental portals. Etc.

[Stinktopus]

Anyway, my Orcs are war. Like, how human babies are made when a man and a woman are very much in love (and also any other time they fuck) while Orcs just spontaneously pour out of mountain caves as armies muster and land is left undefended. If you have war, you have Orcs, and after it's over you have to clean them all out of the ruins they dig themselves into, because they won't ever stop warring.

So... you are also an orc racist?

I thought the consensus was "orc" is Tolkien for "black people" because Stormfront, so if you have something called "orcs" which are intrinsically negative/inferior/violent/always-wearing-a-black-hat, then you are a neo-nazi.

This is why I slap a German accent on all my intrinsically bad guys. It's always okay to kill Germans.

[Stinktopus]

And who said racism doesn't exist, tussock? I'm white and have relatives over 60. I sure as fuck know that racism exists.

Hell, I'll even point out a clearly racist monster in D&D: The Athach.

They're big thugs who wear as much jewelry as possible, and I think we all know what that big third arm sticking out of their torso represents.

[Username17]

Stinktopus, could you be less of a reprehensible human being and just fucking answer DSM's simple dilemma?

Tussock, while I grant that making hostile beings into metaphysical concepts does take them away from being standins for real peoples, I don't see how that's a good idea. If Orcs are dangerous martial spirits, you get the ability to stab them in the face without feeling bad, but you lose half-Orcs, and player character Orcs, and Orc negotiations, and really every reason I can think of to use Orcs instead of golems or zombies or slimes.

-Username17

[sarcasmoverdose]

It's just, it was invented in colonial times. Europeans didn't understand their massive material advantages and when they started doing horrible things to people in far lands who couldn't seem to raise an effective defence they decided it was God's plan that white people just enslave and murder everyone else on the planet for further material profit.

That's one of the silliest ways of describing racism I've seen. Do you really think ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians, and medieval Arabs, Mongolians, and Aztecs weren't racist and imperialistic?

[Stinktopus]

Well, if Frank's gonna nag me to take the conversation seriously...

Here is a very simple question, and before I bother taking you seriously you're going to have to answer it: is race the only way you can think of to simply and clearly designate the setting's white hats and black hats?

No. Of course not. The fact that white hats and black hats were mentioned clearly indicates that hat color is an acceptable way to designate bad guys. Scary armor, excessively complicated religious requirements, nailing babies to sticks, and halitosis are also commonly accepted ways to say, "These are the bad people."

My objection is that I have no problem with a fantasy species in a fantasy universe being intrinsically bad guys because an evil god created them specifically to shit in the cereal of everyone else. I figure EVIL gods do that sort of shit in universes where the pantheons largely break down into God of Cereal and God of Shitting in Cereal.

If, in fact, you want orcs in your setting to be misunderstood brown people, I don't see a reason why your setting just can't have misunderstood brown people. Fantasy universes and creatures lend themselves to outrageous exaggerations and simplifications. Nobody I know wants to play Whitey: The Genocide because I don't associate with the sort of fuckwits who are into "racial essentialism." No real ethnic group can, or should be, accurately considered to be Satan's Talking Shitballs.

I was "hyperbolic" in my description of required complexity because the internet is a great place to be an asshole. I regret nothing!!!

[infected slut princess]

Orcs are racism because Africans.

Barbarians are racism because Africans.

Elves are racism because Asians. Oh yyeah and Celtic hippies as well.

Drunken dorfs are racism because funny Scottish people. Like that guy from that movie haha. And Jews.

The D&D cartoon needs the main character to be a gay dude, otherwise pure bigotry.

When I look around my home country and see serious racial problems where a particular racial group is systematically oppressed by the state, I think that is real serious bigotry and it makes me sad.

When I see you guys btiching about how orcs are racism, I think you are racist like Stormfront because only racists would establish that identity. Black people are HUMANS, not orcs. Okay they didn't list any examples of black humans in Forgotten Realms. OMG. Maybe that's insensitive. But they didn't say dwarves or halflings could be black dudes either. You guys are so racist it makes me sick. TGDMB racists and Stormfront should all get together and fap to Hitler because it's obvious that is what you all do in your bedroom at night.

FUCK RACISM!

[Whipstitch]

I'm firmly in the "racists gonna racist" camp and rarely if ever worry about this shit and even I still think ISP is being a fucking moron. You don't have to agree with someone to figure out that you dislike their worldview, holy shit.

[sarcasmoverdose]

If you go fishing in sewers you'll find nasty stuff, as well as get covered in filth. No matter what you come up with you'll find crazies who choose to do nutty things with it. You might was well try to suppress the theory of evolution so as to stop the eugenics people. Fuck them all.

I'm firmly in the "racists gonna racist" camp and rarely if ever worry about this shit and even I still think ISP is being a fucking moron. You don't have to agree with someone to figure out that you dislike their worldview, holy shit.

Yeah, well, when the author of 5E is describing Orcs in a way that is analogous to Stormfronters describing minorities, we've got a problem.

[animea90]

and the use of rape to exert dominance or satisfy desire is common amongst orcs, especially in raids."

Personally, I do not want every scene involving orcs to include rape.

Rape is a simple way to demonstrate that a group is clearly evil. I mean, most "good" parties are wandering murderhobos who slaughter thousands over the course of their career, so simply having orcs kill people isn't enough to show they are bad, but rape clearly puts you in the evil category.

[animea90]

is it to make slaughtering them mindlessly something you can do completely unexamined?

This is why they have it. A DM can have a complex moral story about a war between two human nations(or humans v elves or humans v dwarves), but he also has the option of sidestepping all moral considerations and making it humans v orcs or humans v demons.

[Whipstitch]

I just have my bad guys swing axes at people.

[animea90]

We don't actually need evil races. We have evil people and evil governments. You can just have Hextorite nations whose soldiers you can face stab with a clear conscience. Evil races gets into discussions of murdering children and civilians, and that is disgusting.

For fuck's sake, the document doesn't name check a whole lot of heroes, and one of them is a fucking Drow. If they wanted the narrative simplicity of it being OK to slaughter any numbers of the black skinned races under any circumstances, they blew that already.

Orcs should just be a PC race, with the note that a lot of them live in Evilia.

-Username17

The problem is evil governments are filled with innocent people. 90% of the army of an evil government is going to be random peasants forced into military service.

[DSMatticus]

I was "hyperbolic" in my description of required complexity because the internet is a great place to be an asshole. I regret nothing!!!

You are an idiot and do not know what hyperbole is. What you actually did was setup a false dichotomy between your position and a ridiculous strawman, which is not simple rhetorical flair in the name of internet assholery, it is a fallacy within a fallacy. You should regret it, because it was dishonest. And that is exactly why I called you on it, explained to you why it was bullshit (complete with damning example of a third option), and challenged you to back down from your insultingly bad argument. And instead all I got out of you was dodging, butthurt, a notpology, and this lousy t-shirt. But that's about what I expected, so whatever.

But to the (new) point: WHY THE FUCKING FUCK do you think explaining why racism against green people in the setting is totally justified rebuts an argument that it would be better not to justify racism against green people in the setting? Are you incapable of making an argument that coherently interacts with the words being thrown at you?

I'm firmly in the "racists gonna racist" camp and rarely if ever worry about this shit

It would help if any of the people having this argument on the other side could do so without immediately going off the rails about how those who'd rather not have orcs be green people who also happen to be embodiments of evil are trying to turn D&D into Privilege: the Checkening (that's not directed at you, mind).

The actual argument is that inherently evil orcs make a worse setting independent of racist overtones, and also make Stormfronters really happy because it gives your setting racist overtones. At that point, the math gets really simple. But nobody is actually trying to argue against that, and instead you get people trying to argue crazy shit like "only green people can wear blackhats" (see, Stinktopus, now that's hyperbole used to make fun of you, because it's a comedic exaggeration of your false dichotomy's intended conclusion).

Edit: I suppose what I'm saying is we shouldn't have to worry about this shit, because the answer is so fucking obvious. Nobody stops their game because the humans who are attempting to murder them and loot their corpses weren't assigned their blackhats are birth, so what kind of moron do you have to be to argue that assigning blackhats at birth is useful for creating simple conflicts without derailing the game into moral quandaries? That's gibberish.

[kzt]

I just have my bad guys swing axes at people.

You don't require your players to deeply analyze the motives of axe swinger? Perhaps he had a deprived childhood, where his mother failed to read to him ever night. And perhaps axe-swinger is really just trying to make an honest living according to his social norms, while the players are stinky murder-hobos.