League Of Losers

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:27 pm

Devourer Kayle has been going very well for me. Also probably Vi, triggering her w on two hits same as vayne would.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:00 pm

Is it just me, or are on-hit builds either total garbage or the best thing in the universe, but never just good?

Every time some new buff to on-hit effects comes out the same group of champions come flying in and dominate, then Riot says "Oh, I remember why that was a bad idea" and nerfs the shit out of on-hit champions or on-hit items (or both, RIP Warwick). Maybe they should stop doing that.

Side note: Is Yi quadruple striking right now or does he just get stacks for double strike even faster? Yi is still garbage because "lolsquishy melee carry," but pub stomp Yi is back!

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:09 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Is it just me, or are on-hit builds either total garbage or the best thing in the universe, but never just good?

Every time some new buff to on-hit effects comes out the same group of champions come flying in and dominate, then Riot says "Oh, I remember why that was a bad idea" and nerfs the shit out of on-hit champions or on-hit items (or both, RIP Warwick). Maybe they should stop doing that.

I think they are trying to do it in ways that aren't stupid, and yeah, that is going to take some effort, sure, but like okay, they are trying.

Vayne with silver bolt proc on two hits after an even tougher early game is at least interesting. Devourer Vi probably isn't objectively better than Tanky CC Vi, ect. I think right now the problem is Kayle is too stupid, but frankly, Runeglaive Kayle is also stupid, so the problem is probably still Kayle.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 1:13 pm

Honestly while devourer is a "fun" item most champions you'd build it on aren't really that good. Like most people just look at Sated Devourer and say "wow that shit is bananas" but getting the item fully stacked takes too long and loses your team too much map pressure. The on hit damage builds also tend to want another big ticket damage item which delays that tankyness that your team expects from you.

Stacking Devorer might get you ahead personally because the item is ridiculously gold efficient. The thing is that you're the jungler you're not about getting ahead personally you're about getting your team ahead. You could have rushed a Runeglaive or Warrior for more effective ganks which gets you ahead but also gets the rest of your team ahead as well. Or if you're playing more conservatively you could rush sightstone then Cinderhulk, this lets you apply early pressure through vision control and ensures that your team actually has a functional tank come late game.

If you must build Devourer I suggest building sightstone second and taking the scuttle crabs whenever possible. This insures that you're actually providing something for your team while you get stacks. Then instead of Bork get Wit's End then go full tank for the rest of your items.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:30 pm

Mistborn you are kind of dumb. Your belief that the jungler isn't allowed to get ahead because they have to spend their time getting the team ahead is so season 3 that I legitimately wonder when you last played league. A Devourer Kayle does as much damage per second as most burst champs, but it is sustained damage instead. Getting ahead is totally fine.

Also, you apparently don't know how the Devourer stacks, because Scuttles are worth 2, Assists are 1, Kills are 2, and Dragon is worth 5. Any decent clear jungler can have that thing fully stacked in 25 minutes while ganking a bunch. In fact, if you have even above average clear, you are going to have to gank, because you will clear your entire jungle and then have to wait.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:24 am

Lord Mistborn wrote:Honestly while devourer is a "fun" item most champions you'd build it on aren't really that good. Like most people just look at Sated Devourer and say "wow that shit is bananas" but getting the item fully stacked takes too long and loses your team too much map pressure. The on hit damage builds also tend to want another big ticket damage item which delays that tankyness that your team expects from you.

Stacking Devorer might get you ahead personally because the item is ridiculously gold efficient. The thing is that you're the jungler you're not about getting ahead personally you're about getting your team ahead. You could have rushed a Runeglaive or Warrior for more effective ganks which gets you ahead but also gets the rest of your team ahead as well. Or if you're playing more conservatively you could rush sightstone then Cinderhulk, this lets you apply early pressure through vision control and ensures that your team actually has a functional tank come late game.

If you must build Devourer I suggest building sightstone second and taking the scuttle crabs whenever possible. This insures that you're actually providing something for your team while you get stacks. Then instead of Bork get Wit's End then go full tank for the rest of your items.

Pick Udyr or Shyvana, build Devourer, then whatever tank items you need. You're doing significant damage and being a tank because Sated Devourer is a very high damage item on champions that can apply on-hit effects (or anyone with a high attack speed). It's efficient and still quite good late.

Stacking your Devourer does not lose your team any pressure because the jungler is supposed to farm the jungle anyways and ganks are a good way to stack it. Bruiser junglers need a damage item, and Sated Devourer is a really good damage item on a bunch of champs.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 6:22 pm

I was in promos for D1 and was promptly matched up with multiple challenger players, including Bloodwater.

Sometimes I wonder about matchmaking.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 am

lol well you're obviously playing at their level!

I must echo that I've been enjoying devourer Vi.
I grab the devourer then either tanky stats if I'm behind or BotRK if I'm ahead. It's been working well. I am thinking of changing from trailblazer because she's not very sticky without challenging smite.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:38 pm

That explains why they slapped my dick off.

I have pretty much stopped jungling at this point. I don't enjoy playing the popular devourer junglers. I do like Vi, but she's one of the weaker users for it (not that she's weak with it, just less good than Shyvana, Yi, or Fizz).

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:13 am

Anyone played the limited game mode? I think it's super fun, specifically the items. My only problem is matchmaking seems to be really off. I'm getting matched with/against people who barely play. I haven't had a game that didn't feel like a stomp.

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:01 am

Ditto, I had fun with it enough to get the icons. I found my matchmaking was putting me with gold/plat, when I usually play against silver/gold in normals. Not entirely sure what the deal with that is.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:53 pm

My question among all of these posts on the horridly unbalanced game that is LoL (Cooldown reduction, or money generation, items? both scream a near disregard for balance in a MOBA, I tend to get either/both to prove my point), where do people find themselves with the flagship of the genre: DoTA2?

Does no one here play DoTA1? While harder than LoL; the gameplay is still being overseen and evolves under IceFrog, the inventor of the MoBA format game.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:35 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:My question among all of these posts on the horridly unbalanced game that is LoL (Cooldown reduction, or money generation, items? both scream a near disregard for balance in a MOBA, I tend to get either/both to prove my point), where do people find themselves with the flagship of the genre: DoTA2?

Does no one here play DoTA1? While harder than LoL; the gameplay is still being overseen and evolves under IceFrog, the inventor of the MoBA format game.

1) There is a Dota thread, so to the extent that your purpose is to talk about dota instead of whatever the moba equivalent of edition war is called, you should take it to that thread.

2) Money generation items are absolutely not a disregard for balance at all, since they only fucking work on supports. Do you even know the current state of the game?Imagine a top laner or mid laner trying to take these items. There is the item that gives 3 gold instead of 0 when you miss a last hit, and 0 when you make it, so solution, don't miss last hits. There is an item that gives you a small amount of gold, less than you would get from a single minion, for hitting an enemy, just so long as you haven't killed a single minion in the last 20 seconds, and it can only hold three charges, and it doesn't even charge up when you have killed a minion recently. There is an item that does literally nothing if you are alone in lane.

Similarly, the idea that CD reduction items are a balance concern is fucking titanitcally stupid. You can buy mana regen or mana to give you more abilities, you can buy ap or ad to give you better abilities when you use them, choosing to build cdr with your money so that you can use your abilities faster is not a big fucking deal. The idea that it is possible to balance a game around people getting shorter cooldowns as they level up, but impossible to balance it around them also spending money and item slots for shorter cooldowns is fucking hilarious.

EDIT: Brief aside. Gary Gygax "invented" TTRPG (or Anderson, it doesn't matter) the idea that he therefore has better ideas for how the game should exist in the future is a fucking joke. Icefrog likes one kind of moba game, other people like other things in their mobas, like a sensible system for resists and damage types, or not having to hate their lives as a support. When Dota implements a free sightstone for all characters let me know and I'll consider playing it.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:35 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:My question among all of these posts on the horridly unbalanced game that is LoL (Cooldown reduction, or money generation, items? both scream a near disregard for balance in a MOBA, I tend to get either/both to prove my point), where do people find themselves with the flagship of the genre: DoTA2?

Does no one here play DoTA1? While harder than LoL; the gameplay is still being overseen and evolves under IceFrog, the inventor of the MoBA format game.

Wow. What an idiot. I don't mind some edition warring as far as shouting down a dumbass, so here it goes. Note: nothing in the post disparages another game aside from mentioning that fact that LoL is the most popular MoBA.

1a. CDR is limited by a cap, so you can't run around with 100% CDR and spam stuns or any shit like that (there was a temporary game mode which included 80% CDR built in and chain CC was still difficult). CDR is capped AND the game is balanced around CDR and non-CDR builds. Many popular builds include no CDR at all, so are you stupid, ignorant, or both on this? Probably both.

1b. What is wrong with cash generation? These items are less efficient until a certain amount of money is generated (like picking scaling heroes in DotA!) and don't generate so much that you WIN because you picked a fucking relic shield. There was a brief time when money generation items were overpowered, and that time was roughly two fucking weeks and applied to one specific item that only worked in duo lanes.

Unless you're talking about Heart of Gold, but that was pre-DotA2 and also 3 years ago. Fuck, LoL is way beyond that now.

2. DotA1 is terrible compared to modern games! That is obvious. Warcraft II is bad too. This is not a surprise to anyone. It's limited to the WC III engine.

3. What does "harder" mean. Is turn speed a good thing? Is an item like BKB a good thing? These are subjective. Sure, some games are objectively easier via being slowed down or removing a ton of options, but how are you quantifying difficulty? Is the APM different of LoL vs Whatever so different? MoBAs are not mechanically difficult compared to other competitive games.

3. The flagship is goddamn LoL now. It is the most popular computer game IN THE WORLD. That makes it the flagship of whatever genre it is. You might not like that, but that's how shit works. CoD or Halo is the flagship FPS, not Goldeneye.

4. You're bad and your build is bad. Nobody builds both CDR and money generation except SUPPORTS! Are you suggesting that the common support build paths are OVERPOWERED? Then why does only one of 5 players on either team do that!? Surely the professionals who make millions of dollars would make better choices. Are you better than them at the game they are the best at, or are you wrong?

5. You don't play enough to analyze what's good and what's bad. Your analysis of a game you don't play is bad and wrong. If you were diamond or higher maybe you could comment on the balance of the game and not be laughed at, but you aren't! You think CDR is overpowered! Holy shit.

I could get somebody coming in and saying "Master Yi jungle with devourer is OP because he will fuck any team without CC" because that is, at least for the last bit, a TRUE STATEMENT. Saying "CDR and gold gen are overpowered" is beyond words. Tell me, is Garen building CDR any good (hint: no, he is terrible). Is a CDR build on 75% of champions the best way to build them? NO! You'll rarely see max CDR on anyone. If it's so OP, why wouldn't it be maxed?

6. Fuck yourself.

New game mode: It's alright. Razorfins + tanks are the best minions by leaps and bounds (mostly razorfins, you only need 1 or 2 people buying the tanks) but the new items are a ton of fun. It definitely benefits APs more than anyone else, but it's a breath of fresh air. Also, the river item is cool and I want it in all games.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Really, razorfins? For winning early lanes I can see it, but what do they do for you when people are level 10?

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:01 pm

Orion wrote:Really, razorfins? For winning early lanes I can see it, but what do they do for you when people are level 10?

A group of razorfins will kill single target damage dealers and help tanks a ton in dealing with split pushers. Razorfin damage (in groups > 2) is very high. I've seen 6 razorfins kill a Vayne on their own around 30 minutes in.

Razorfins are actually kind of bad in lane but great late. They're the only minion that poses a threat to champions, and threatening champions is what late is all about. If you want lane presence you get that janky ranged one that has the split shot.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:13 pm

Orion wrote:Really, razorfins? For winning early lanes I can see it, but what do they do for you when people are level 10?

The level 3 ability doubles your razorfins, when a lane has 10 razorfins, and each one targets on the champion, and does 300% damage on third hit, and you have baron, those things destroy towers in like seconds, and make it impossible for the enemy team to even fight you in the wave, because your built up wave does more damage than a tower.

Also, banner of command? I haven't done it, but it sounds like a great idea.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:28 am

I haven't seen razorfins doing anything great unless two people buy them. But then it's terrifying. In disorganized games, ironbacks are fantastic because they eat through towers.

I just got Definitely Not Blitzcrank as a mystery skin, so I tried a game with blitz puppeteer. Fantastic for cheesey tower pulls.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:40 am

...You Lost Me wrote:I haven't seen razorfins doing anything great unless two people buy them. But then it's terrifying. In disorganized games, ironbacks are fantastic because they eat through towers.

I just got Definitely Not Blitzcrank as a mystery skin, so I tried a game with blitz puppeteer. Fantastic for cheesey tower pulls.

Yeah razorfinds are garbage alone, but if you get 5 people buying them, and then you all get the level 3 ability, that is pretty fucking beast. It really feels like either 4 or 5 people buying the same thing is the best, no matter what that is, cannon for waves that split push on their own, ironback for tower destroying when you set the wave, and for preventing the enemy teams push, razorfins for winning combats in the waves, and late game pushes with baron, and all scouts for a 1/3/1 split push team with all the vision.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:27 pm

Just got diamond 1 again! Time to lose it in 3 games.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:28 am

This fucking game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAu7SUp5HEA

I just finished watching the Brazilian finals. This game (second of the series) got me actually angry. It gets even more irritating if you watch the third game, and check what Pain did on a similar exposed Nexus situation.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:23 am

That game. I'm kind of surprised Gnar didn't just go all-in on the Ori at the end. She had lowish health and he was at full with about 30 seconds more before anyone spawned.

Also holy shit, server move. My ping is going to become not-garbage! Masters, here I come!

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:45 am

I actually love, that there are a bunch of sarcastic assholes west coasters who are making jokes about how east coasters are going to all be masters now, and yeah, sure, 30 ping is going to make a huge difference, because they are salty about the server move.

And in a year, when the servers move, they are all going to be whining about their 50-80 ping and how terrible it is and it is holding them back.

Because fucking spoiler alert, 100 ping sucks balls, and while it isn't going to turn silvers into masters, it is going to make the game a hell of a lot more enjoyable, and let people on the east coast play more without getting as frustrated by unresponsive controls and lag.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:38 pm

Kaelik wrote:I actually love, that there are a bunch of sarcastic assholes west coasters who are making jokes about how east coasters are going to all be masters now, and yeah, sure, 30 ping is going to make a huge difference, because they are salty about the server move.

And in a year, when the servers move, they are all going to be whining about their 50-80 ping and how terrible it is and it is holding them back.

Because fucking spoiler alert, 100 ping sucks balls, and while it isn't going to turn silvers into masters, it is going to make the game a hell of a lot more enjoyable, and let people on the east coast play more without getting as frustrated by unresponsive controls and lag.

I look forward to being able to flash away from people before taking an auto attack. That is the single most frustrating thing about high ping that happens on a semi-regular basis.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:43 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I look forward to being able to flash away from people before taking an auto attack. That is the single most frustrating thing about high ping that happens on a semi-regular basis.

Honestly, I don't expect to see much improvement in my rank from any ping change for reasons unrelated to my skill, but I just love that literally 100% of the people shittalking east coast players for asking for a server move or being happy about a server move have no fucking idea what it is like to play at 100 ping.