Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[K]

What the fuck party is going to haul around a cannon or ballista?

The Wizard with shrink item loves this. At high levels, it's made permanent with permanency and it's a magic siege engine using magic ammo.

[A Man In Black]

The Wizard with shrink item loves this. At high levels, it's made permanent with permanency and it's a magic siege engine using magic ammo.

No he doesn't, because he's still giving up his 1/day spontaneous spell, ability to specialize, cantrips, and opposed spell school for the ability to waste his actions remote-controlling a cannon. On top of this, he still has to buy and haul ammunition and, and before level 10 he's stuck spending multiple rounds dicking around with reloading and aiming it unless it has a (vulnerable) crew. The lightest siege weapon takes no action to aim and two move actions (standard if you didn't burn a feat) to reload, in order to do a whopping 3d8 damage.

Lessee, feat time.

Fighting styles aren't really TOB-style fighting styles. They're just mutually-exclusive feat chains, but if you're an idiot you can take multiples and switch between them on the fly. You just can't combine Tiger Style feats with Boar Style feats. A bunch of the styles are overtly supernatural (building on Elemental Fist), and most of them are restricted to monks or unarmed attackers.

Boar Style is 2d6 bleed damage as a rend when you hit twice with unarmed strikes. The followup feats are shit, though; there's a feat to make a demoralize check as a free action if you get the rend, but there's already a feat in APG to give you free demoralize checks whenever you strike for nonlethal damage, so what the fuck ever.

There's a feat to burn a shitload of channel energy to cast Breath of Life (basically Revivify) as a full-round action. So...you can spend a full-round action to cast a touch-range spell that only works if they've died in the last round. Super.

Cleaving Finish is 3e Cleave, but takes Power Attack and PF Cleave as prereqs. There's an Improved Cleaving Finish for 3e Greater Cleave, with PA, PF Cleave, Cleaving Finish, and PF Greater Cleave as prereqs. I know this has been mentioned, but man, so bad.

There's a feat to make a single attack as a full-round action, with +4 to hit and damage, and you can combine it with Vital Strike. However, you need to use it against a Large or larger enemy, and also they get an immediate attack against you, also at +4 to-hit/damage.

Destructive Dispel adds fort-save-or-stunned (and sickened even if they do save) for one round to targeted dispel casts. That's kind of cool.

I can't believe the lameness of some of these feat chains. There's a feat chain exclusively for serpentfolk, naga, or creatures with Constrict. There's a bunch of feats to give bullshit damage bonuses on Vital Strike.

There is a cleric-only version of Zen Archery, although it's limited to clerics who haven't traded in Channel Energy and who have longbow as their favored weapon, and has a (useless) prereq feat.

I dunno, more later.

[Juton]

If he miniaturizes it on his day off, along with the ammo, he doesn't need to make it full size for it to still work (potentially). A person with a bow who is shrunk still does full damage with their arrows, their arrows become full sized when in flight. I'm sure you could do something similar, perhaps culminating with a pistol that shoots cannon balls.

[K]

The Wizard with shrink item loves this. At high levels, it's made permanent with permanency and it's a magic siege engine using magic ammo.

No he doesn't, because he's still giving up his 1/day spontaneous spell, ability to specialize, cantrips, and opposed spell school for the ability to waste his actions remote-controlling a cannon. On top of this, he still has to buy and haul ammunition and, and before level 10 he's stuck spending multiple rounds dicking around with reloading and aiming it unless it has a (vulnerable) crew. The lightest siege weapon takes no action to aim and two move actions (standard if you didn't burn a feat) to reload, in order to do a whopping 3d8 damage.

Why use the lightest siege weapon? Grab the heaviest ones because it won't matter when they are shrunk into plush form and your ability makes you a full crew, and then don't even reload them until after the fight. It's not like you'll need more than 3-4 for one battle since they will be tiny when shrunk and easily fit into a handy haversack.

Hell, incorporate Store Spell ammo each time you shrink it and just add big damage to spell effects. Literally all your spellcasting will be happening after fights and the first fights of the day will be from spell slots you used days ago.

I mean, specialization for Wizards in Pathfinder s not that great and cantrips suck for them. It's no loss.

Personally, I'd probably catapult pots of green slime or something, but I expect Pathfinder has some better siege weapons rules than the SRD.

[hogarth]

Why use the lightest siege weapon? Grab the heaviest ones because it won't matter when they are shrunk into plush form and your ability makes you a full crew, and then don't even reload them until after the fight. It's not like you'll need more than 3-4 for one battle since they will be tiny when shrunk and easily fit into a handy haversack.

A 10th level wizard can shrink something that's 20 cubic feet in size. That's less than a 3'x3'x3' cube. What kind of puny siege engine is that?

[Grek]

Gentlemen, behold: The Deathtank.

What you do is construct a masterwork adamantine ballista (a Huge crossbow, which is in turn a Large object) and a masterwork cold iron wagon (assumed to be a Huge item) for a total cost of 4470gp. Mount the ballista on the wagon for easy transport.

You then hire a cleric to cast animate objects (720gp for a CL 12 version) and have the wagon spend each round loading the ballista (which it, as a Huge "creature", can do as a full round action) and have the ballista itself spend its round shooting the crossbow for 3d8 damage (at no penalty, as it is the safe size as itself) at whatever you want your deathtank to be shooting. Make the entire arrangement permanent with a casting of permanency spell for (an admittedly hefty) 15700gp more.

The entire contraption has a move speed of 60', a range increment of 120', construct traits, darkvision and hardness (20 for crossbow, 10 for wagon mount). It threatens out to 10' around it and if you're feeling extra cheesy, you can give the crossbow part a Large lance and have it mounted charge people (out to 120') for 6d6+22 damage from the lance and trampling by the wagon.

Requiring a only a move action each time you wish to switch targets, this terrifying construct is not only better in every way than the Siege Mage feat, but also cheaper on the whole and requiring much less dedication and long hours of practice/ranks in Profession(seige engineer). When not serving as a main battle tank for your armies of tiny men (you do have armies of tiny men at this point, right?) it can carry you (and your loot) around between dungeons in the epitome of style. All for a grand total of 20890gp, becoming plausably affordable at level 6.

[A Man In Black]

Why use the lightest siege weapon?

Because the larger ones require multiple full-round actions to aim at a target, and that's doubled if you don't have a full crew (and you don't, before level 10). Even if you get a gargantuan ballista, you're only getting 6d8 damage out of it, anyway.

Specialization is still one spell slot of each level. You're losing two spells of your highest level, then one spell of every other level to fuck about with ballistas. Specialization in Pathfinder is better than 3e/3.5 specialization, because you get the bullshit abilities in addition to the spell slots. On top of that, APG and UM added new alternate bullshit abilities, and some of them are actually good.

Personally, I'd probably catapult pots of green slime or something, but I expect Pathfinder has some better siege weapons rules than the SRD.

Catapults and suchlike are indirect fire, so you have to reaim them every time you pick a new square. None of the special ammunition plays nicely with anything but indirect fire weapons and cannon (which have their own set of bullshit limitations).

[RobbyPants]

Why use the lightest siege weapon? Grab the heaviest ones because it won't matter when they are shrunk into plush form and your ability makes you a full crew, and then don't even reload them until after the fight. It's not like you'll need more than 3-4 for one battle since they will be tiny when shrunk and easily fit into a handy haversack.

A 10th level wizard can shrink something that's 20 cubic feet in size. That's less than a 3'x3'x3' cube. What kind of puny siege engine is that?

How's that work in PF target rules? Does that mean the object has to fit into a 3x3x3 foot cube, or does that mean it can't contain more than 20 cubic feat of matter in an odd-shaped area?

[hogarth]

How's that work in PF target rules? Does that mean the object has to fit into a 3x3x3 foot cube, or does that mean it can't contain more than 20 cubic feat of matter in an odd-shaped area?

It doesn't specify, but unless you're making your trebuchet out of hollow aluminum struts, it probably doesn't make a huge amount of difference -- 20 cubic feet just isn't much volume.

[K]

How's that work in PF target rules? Does that mean the object has to fit into a 3x3x3 foot cube, or does that mean it can't contain more than 20 cubic feat of matter in an odd-shaped area?

It doesn't specify, but unless you're making your trebuchet out of hollow aluminum struts, it probably doesn't make a huge amount of difference -- 20 cubic feet just isn't much volume.

Twenty cubic feet of displacement is much larger of a DnD object for an irregular object than a solid 3' by 3' by 3' cube.

Imagine what you can make with 20 individual 1' by 1' by 1' cubes instead, or 80 individual 6" by 6" by 6" cubes.

[K]

Why use the lightest siege weapon?

Because the larger ones require multiple full-round actions to aim at a target, and that's doubled if you don't have a full crew (and you don't, before level 10). Even if you get a gargantuan ballista, you're only getting 6d8 damage out of it, anyway.

I don't really know why you'd want an ability that lets you fire a siege weapon remotely and spend several rounds just aiming it.

What does the Siege Engineer feat do? There must be some way to get that re-aiming time down.

[ishy]

What the fuck party is going to haul around a cannon or ballista?

The Wizard with shrink item loves this. At high levels, it's made permanent with permanency and it's a magic siege engine using magic ammo.

I'm new here, but how does shrink item work in pf? If I look at what for example reduce and enlarge person says about projectile weapons:
Reduce person:

projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them

Enlarge person:

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

Which don't make much sense to me but well it is pathfinder

[A Man In Black]

You could have just said "Pathfinder has really terrible siege weapons rules that are different from 3.5."

I don't really know why you'd want an ability that lets you fire a siege weapon remotely and spend several rounds just aiming it.

What does the Siege Engineer feat do?

I wasn't aware 3.5 had siege engine rules.

Siege Engineer just gives you siege weapon proficiency, and prevents misfires on non-gunpowder siege weapons.

[Grek]

They're helpfully listed under "Wilderness, Weather, and Environment". Here's a SRD link: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... ge-engines

[Leress]

@ishy

This is how pathfinder does it:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item

@MIB

I think the siege engine rules are here

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm

[K]

@ishy

This is how pathfinder does it:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shrink-item

@MIB

I think the siege engine rules are here

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm

There are only a little different. I changed my post a few minutes later when I checked them both.

[A Man In Black]

There must be some way to get that re-aiming time down.

Well. There's this.

Master Siege Engineer (Combat)
You are significantly faster at loading a siege engine, as well as a better shot.
Prerequisites: Siege Weapon Engineer, Knowledge (engineering) 10 ranks.
Benefit: If you are the crew lead on a siege engine, your crew can use move actions to load a siege engine. When you spend actions to aim a siege engine, you and your crew can use move actions instead of full-round actions to aim the siege engine (page 160).
Normal: Full-round actions are required to load and aim siege engines.

That's as good as it gets.

In unrelated-to-UC news, Paizo is getting into the randomized miniatures market. $4 for a booster with a single fig or two small figs.

[RobbyPants]

I hate the idea of randomized minis. I see why they do it from a money-making standpoint, but still.

[Juton]

Are they at least going to make a minis focused game like D&D minis? Otherwise Paizons be seeing a lot more random monsters in dungeons if their DM buys these minatures.

[hogarth]

Are they at least going to make a minis focused game like D&D minis? Otherwise Paizons be seeing a lot more random monsters in dungeons if their DM buys these minatures.

I gather they're going to be issuing at least one set based on the monsters from Rise of the Runelords to coincide with their (all-but-confirmed) omnibus edition of that adventure path.

[Otakusensei]

Spellslinger is the biggest piece of over-engineered crap I've ever seen in Pathfinder. They get some middling bonuses that destroy themselves 5% of the time and it only costs every useful class feature and half their spell casting utility.

And at the end of the day they still have no armor and shit for BAB and HP.

The fuck?

[CapnTthePirateG]

Spellslinger is the biggest piece of over-engineered crap I've ever seen in Pathfinder. They get some middling bonuses that destroy themselves 5% of the time and it only costs every useful class feature and half their spell casting utility.

And at the end of the day they still have no armor and shit for BAB and HP.

The fuck?

Clearly, it's a class for "real roleplayers".

Or they're really, really scared of spell DC increases.

[Otakusensei]

Oh damn. So I got home and told my wife about the Spellslinger and how much it sucked. She clued me into Geisha from a previous book. Neutered bard with even less survivability and a distinctly questionable roleplay angle saddled with this gem:

Tea Ceremony (Su)

By spending 10 minutes preparing an elaborate tea ceremony, a geisha may affect her allies with inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics. The ceremony’s effects last 10 minutes. The geisha must spend 4 rounds of bardic performance for each creature to be affected.

That's right... an actual magical tea party. And a worthless one at that unless you want to bust out the tea service just prior to tackling the dragon's cave or invite you raid boss to tea.

Again. The fuck?

[A Man In Black]

Spellslinger is the biggest piece of over-engineered crap I've ever seen in Pathfinder. They get some middling bonuses that destroy themselves 5% of the time and it only costs every useful class feature and half their spell casting utility.

Remember that banned spells just take two spell slots in PF, another reason that specialization is such an obvious choice. It's just more spell slots set on fire.

That's right... an actual magical tea party. And a worthless one at that unless you want to bust out the tea service just prior to tackling the dragon's cave or invite you raid boss to tea.

I can't defend the flavor, but I can point out how useful that is for situations where you want the performance bonus but actually performing is out of place, particularly stealthy situations. It's also useful for situations where you want the performance bonus on any time-consuming task, because bards normally only get round/level of performance. You also don't lose the normal bardic performance ability to get this.

It's not a great ability, but it's situationally useful. It probably should have been a feat or something, though, because the rest of the archetype is bullshit filler.

[Josh_Kablack]

$4 for a booster with a single fig

The fuck you say?

I could argue that $4 for a prepainted fig and plastics greater portability makes it superior to $4 for a Reaper pewter fig for some players.

But $4 for a random mini vs $4 for a mini you can pick yourself is a really obvious choice.