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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:35 pm
by Username17
cthulhu wrote:Stahlseele wrote:I guess it's the number of all parties that are owed something from CGL/IMR.
Topps, Printers, Posthuman Studios, Freelancers both shadowrun and battletech . . everybody . .
That is obvious - just where did the total count of creditors come from? What is the source of that particular number.
One of the creditors.
-Username17
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:07 pm
by knasser
adamjury wrote:We said “Okay. If we don’t sell twice as many copies of the PDF as (ASpecificCatalystCoreBook) did in PDF in 18 months, you can take the difference in dollars out of our royalties.”
I've said it before on this subject, but I'll say it again and then stop before I add another tangent to the thread... Eclipse Phase is absolutely great. It's one of the best RPG publications I've seen in years (imho). Unless you've found some way to allow for difference in quality, you can't know that the increase of sales was due to it being free.
But you will know your market better than I do. You might be right, I just am dubious about the business model long-term. Btw, you can deduct one sale from your total for purposes of this argument as I bought it without realising I could get it for free.
Peace,
Khadim.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:30 pm
by adamjury
I don't understand what you think is less viable about the business model long-term?
Here are the things that helped contribute to the sales:
* Quality
* People being able to sample that quality without the sample being crippled.
* Price point for electronic version not based on the price of the print version.
Yes, we leave a few dollars on the table, per sale, by selling the PDF inexpensively; those dollars are made up by increased sales and thus the increased size of the player network (Which Creative Commons sharing also contributes to). The size of the network helps dictate future sales.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:49 pm
by knasser
adamjury wrote:I don't understand what you think is less viable about the business model long-term?
Here are the things that helped contribute to the sales:
* Quality
* People being able to sample that quality without the sample being crippled.
* Price point for electronic version not based on the price of the print version.
Yes, we leave a few dollars on the table, per sale, by selling the PDF inexpensively; those dollars are made up by increased sales and thus the increased size of the player network (Which Creative Commons sharing also contributes to). The size of the network helps dictate future sales.
Those three points I all agree with. It's the free distribution that I have my doubts about. I'm of the opinion that as technology progresses, digital versions will be increasingly preferred over print. So the model of giving the product away free to stimulate sales breaks down into two paths - stimulating sales of print copies and stimulating sales of digital copies. Now the former may work well at present but if digital does become largely preferred over print, then it falls apart. The second part is already problematic because the thing you're selling is the same as the thing you're giving away for free.
Now some portion of people will give you money that they don't have to just because they believe in supporting products they like. I am one such person. I would have bought the PDF anyway (though if I'd known that I'd ultimately end up buying the print copy, I would have considered that my contribution and just got a free copy of the PDF). There will also remain a portion of people that would like print copies. Your business model is to grow the network large enough via free copies that the portion of that network giving you money in some way is larger than the higher proportion (but of the smaller network) that would give you money because they had to under a non-free model.
I've already explained why I'm not hopeful about the print route. How much it will diminish and how quickly, we don't know. But it's definitely going to fall which means you can't use how it is today as a reliable guide to how it will be in a few years time. The portion desiring to pay when they don't have to and who get nothing more than those taking for free, I'm simply not optimistic about. I also think that once you introduce this model, you'll find it hard to go back. Also, you get some of the hardback sales through gaming shops where people see it and think "let's buy that." Increasingly, people buy things online rather than in shops and I think that trend is going to increase massively and it will especially hit non-commodity and speciality items like RPG books.
That's my logic anyway. Reality may contradict it. I certainly wish Eclipse Phase every success. But you said you didn't understand what I thought was less viable about the business model long-term, so I've explained. Note the word "less". This is in comparison to a traditional model.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:51 pm
by Wesley Street
TheFlatline wrote:It also shows that CGL simply isn't very professional either.
Theft and nepotism aside that cuts to the heart of the issue. When a business is run in a virtual fashion, you have to work twice as hard to keep your contractors and employees in the loop. It's not like a freelancer in Lisbon can just walk into the boss' office in Seattle and demand to know why emails aren't being answered.
You also have to work twice as hard to maintain professional decorum and respect in the community --- co-workers are a lot less likely to pop off on one another if they have to share a physical space and it's easier to settle disputes face-to-face. Internet anonymity combined with ego combined with technical writing on a shared universe project requires an equal amount of carrot and whip. People need clear chains of command and to know where they sit in the hierarchy or everything goes to hell (ie: writers going off projects resulting in delays, internal writer clashes, etc.).
It wouldn't matter if every outstanding freelancer and printer was paid what he was owed and LLC faded away, never to be heard from again, because the existing culture's already too corrupted.
Catalyst keeping the SR license is very much a bad thing for players and the brand as the company is incapable of delivering in a timely manner.
I'm not going to
pull an AH and sell all my SR books as I find that silly and overly-emotional. But I also know it's going to be a long time before good professional material emerges on the market again.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:10 pm
by Username17
Knasser wrote:Now some portion of people will give you money that they don't have to just because they believe in supporting products they like. I am one such person. I would have bought the PDF anyway (though if I'd known that I'd ultimately end up buying the print copy, I would have considered that my contribution and just got a free copy of the PDF).
We're talking about a hobby product. Just letting people pay whatever they want for entertainment is a
Proven Successful Model. Radiohead made mad bank on that album.
Wesley Street wrote:Catalyst keeping the SR license is very much a bad thing for players and the brand as the company is incapable of delivering in a timely manner.
I'm not going to pull an AH and sell all my SR books as I find that silly and overly-emotional. But I also know it's going to be a long time before good professional material emerges on the market again.
I don't know if he'll actually go through with that. Certainly he has every reason to be pissed. I haven't read Corp Guide, but aside from the admitted copyright violations in it, I have heard pretty negative things from people I trust. Continuity errors, factual errors, it isn't pretty. I doubt we're in for anything better for some time.
Certainly I can sympathize with anyone who just wants to cash out of Shadowrun and walk away. It makes sense to me. I am undecided about whether I will do that or not. Had there been an orderly transfer of power to
anyone at all, I would give them many months of leeway to get their act together. But right now I'm looking at I don't know how many months of total garbage entering canon and I don't know if I care enough to continue. Certainly, I have no intentions of writing any more Shadowrun fanpieces in the foreseeable future. I'm no longer recommending Shadowrun as a game for people to get into. For a game that has been part of my life for 21 years... well... we are having some alone time right now. A trial separation if you will.
-Username17
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:01 pm
by adamjury
knasser wrote:Those three points I all agree with. It's the free distribution that I have my doubts about. I'm of the opinion that as technology progresses, digital versions will be increasingly preferred over print. So the model of giving the product away free to stimulate sales breaks down into two paths - stimulating sales of print copies and stimulating sales of digital copies. Now the former may work well at present but if digital does become largely preferred over print, then it falls apart. The second part is already problematic because the thing you're selling is the same as the thing you're giving away for free.
If the electronic product is desirable, people will pay for it. As electronic products become more widely adopted, sales will rise, and so will the number of formats that we can sell it in (The GM Screen Hack Pack being one such example of selling a premium electronic product to those that like to tinker with things themselves.)
Plus, I do not believe that the print book market is suddenly going to collapse. People like print, and they're going to continue to like print. Is that market changing? Yes; but we're all smart, we can use trends to continue to predict how things will go, which you don't seem to think we (the collective "publishers of the world") can do.
As things change, we'll adapt. Perhaps we'll see a future where short electronic releases come out first, followed by a print omnibus that collects the most popular of the electronic releases. Perhaps print will become more niche and print releases are all "deluxe," and limited to one print run only, for the hardcore collectors. Perhaps they'll lean more towards Warhammer 3rd Edition-style boxed games.
Your business model is to grow the network large enough via free copies that the portion of that network giving you money in some way is larger than the higher proportion (but of the smaller network) that would give you money because they had to under a non-free model.
There's no way to enforce a "non-free model." It's barely worth considering it as a model, much less considering using it. We'd much rather sanction the sharing _that gamers have done forever_ and consider all the sharers part of our network, without judgement.
Lee Gold's first copy of D&D was a copy that friends photocopied for her, on seeing her write a check that she pledged to send to TSR to order a copy of the box set. She's been running Alarums and Excursions, perhaps the original RPG fanzine/APA, for 35 years now -- based on starting with a pirated copy of D&D.
I've already explained why I'm not hopeful about the print route.
You really haven't. You said digital goods will be more desirable, but you've married that to a decrease in print sales that you really haven't justified at all. I think it's a rising tide situations: popular is popular. The movies that do awesome in theatres sell well as digital downloads and on DVD/Bluray as well.
I also think that once you introduce this model, you'll find it hard to go back.
Fuck yeah welcome to the future!
Also, you get some of the hardback sales through gaming shops where people see it and think "let's buy that." Increasingly, people buy things online rather than in shops and I think that trend is going to increase massively and it will especially hit non-commodity and speciality items like RPG books.
I'm not basing my sales projects for EP from 1996 figures here; I'm looking at 2009-2010 sales figures. We know that online sales exist. Online sales make us money. I have issues with Amazon, but I will be plum fucking stoked when Eclipse Phase is back on it and selling even half as well as it was earlier this year. Nearly every month that Amazon had Eclipse Phase, it sold more than the previous month.
This is in comparison to a traditional model.
The traditional model is effected by everything you have suggested as a problem, in addition to the "us vs. them" pirate mentality, plus the lower size of the network.
I certainly wish Eclipse Phase every success.
Then please: play it, share it, write stuff for it. In the end, Eclipse Phase--wrapped in love, a Creative Commons license, and covered in Red Bull rings--is everyone's.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:10 pm
by Surgo
I know it's unlikely, but it would really be awesome if Eclipse Phase became a leader that pulled a decent amount of the industry into Creative Commons-style licensing.
We saw some of that happen with the OGL material of D&D 3.5, which is kind of halfway there, it'll be really awesome if that lightning can strike twice.
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:45 pm
by Crissa
Digital paper may be preferable at some point. But I don't know if giving money to the creator will ever go out of style. You don't get more of the good stuff if the creators can't create!
-Crissa
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:46 am
by Korwin
knasser wrote:
It's the free distribution that I have my doubts about.
You may want to look
at this book publisher (mostly SciFi).
This publisher has an
free library
List of free books:
I bought an Kindle, so yesterday I started to redownload my
bought books in an other format. Didnt finish it, stopped (for yesterday) at 215 books.
I started with the free library, its like free drugs...
And I dont think I'm the only one who got lured into being an customer of baen...
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:47 am
by Korwin
Where did I fuck up with my post?
When I try to edit or quote the post, the information is in there, but it doesnt show...
Thanks Fuchs
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:16 am
by Fuchs
Korwin wrote:knasser wrote:
It's the free distribution that I have my doubts about.
You may want to look
at this book publisher (mostly SciFi).
This publisher has an
free library
List of free books:
I bought an Kindle, so yesterday I started to redownload my
bought books in an other format. Didnt finish it, stopped (for yesterday) at 215 books.
I started with the free library, its like free drugs...
And I dont think I'm the only one who got lured into being an customer of baen...
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:17 am
by Fuchs
Korwin wrote:Where did I fuck up with my post?
When I try to edit or quote the post, the information is in there, but it doesnt show...
In the link to "free library", you had a ] instead of a = in front of the URL, that bugged it.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:09 am
by BeeRockxs
Surgo wrote:I know it's unlikely, but it would really be awesome if Eclipse Phase became a leader that pulled a decent amount of the industry into Creative Commons-style licensing.
CGL has already jumped onto the bandwagon with Leviathans.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:15 pm
by adamjury
At the risk of crass commercialism, I said that I would be plum fucking stoked when Eclipse Phase was back on Amazon, and I do indeed myself in that state:
http://tinyurl.com/epamazon
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:47 pm
by krainboltgreene
1. Adam Jury posts here?
2. Yay Eclipse Phase!
Creative Commons-style licensing.
3. Fixed that for you, and I'm already seeing it.
We saw some of that happen with the OGL material of D&D 3.5, which is kind of halfway there, it'll be really awesome if that lightning can strike twice.
4. Fuck the OGL, with a rusty lead pipe. Fuck that movement too.
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:00 pm
by Surgo
krainboltgreene wrote:3. Fixed that for you, and I'm already seeing it.
Then throw some damn links around, don't just assert it.
And I don't see how that's "fixed that for you" -- Creative Commons isn't the only license out there, and it's not as if some large IPs wouldn't cook up their own license as Wizards did with the OGL.
krainboltgreene wrote:4. Fuck the OGL, with a rusty lead pipe. Fuck that movement too.
What's wrong with the OGL? It allows derivative works under any license you desire. Only good came out of that.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:12 am
by TheFlatline
EP is in stock at Amazon?
Ordered. Liked the free PDF, want the dead tree version.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:25 am
by TheFlatline
knasser wrote:
[...] It's the free distribution that I have my doubts about. I'm of the opinion that as technology progresses, digital versions will be increasingly preferred over print.
I'll make a definitive predictive statement.
This will not happen in the next 5 years. At that point, if EP is successful, it will be moving into it's second edition and can be dealt with from there.
Have you looked at EP, or for that matter any PDF or graphics intensive document on any portable document viewers?
Nook/Kindle: Sucks ass. Too small, grayscale is bullshit, slow page refresh, slow search, slow access in general.
iPhone: You mean if you jailbreak it?
iPad: Better experience with graphics-heavy documents, but we're dealing with battery life here, and typing on that touchscreen is an exercise in frustration. The iPad is at least 2 generations of battery technology away from being an in-game option for anything longer than a few hours. Even then, the price point is *extremely* high and limiting.
Laptop/netbook: Battery life sucks, so you're tethered to the wall probably, faster searching than any of the other options due to a dedicated keyboard, but again, displaying full, readable pages on a laptop screen is an issue.
Electronic documents are useful when you know what you want to know, but have no clue where in the text to look for it. It's *great* for that. However, if my friend pulls up, say, Dark Heresy on PDF and looks for something at the same time I start to look for it in the core book, I promise you I'll get there first. Book interaction is still faster than electronic documents.
Finally, "paperless" offices generate nearly as much, and sometimes more paperwork than traditional setups. That information can be accessed easily, but it's almost certain every single bit of data will be printed up on hardcopy sooner or later. Electronic RPG books seem to do the same thing. Sooner or later you get pissed and just print the f*cker.
The successful electronic replacement of an RPG book I suspect will not actually be much of a book, but moreso an interactive program that offers more than just an inferior reading experience. It can help you generate your character, it can go through, analyze your character, and pick out rules, exceptions, spell lists, and everything else that you need, assemble it as a braindump, and parse it as part of a printable character. I think it'll have to be a tool more than just an e-doc, because the technology needs another paradigm evolution or two in order to catch up to a dead tree book for the large majority of the planet.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:13 pm
by adamjury
Why do you think you need to jailbreak the iPhone? I'm not a fan of gaming PDFs on it, but GoodReader runs just fine on my iPod touch.
As for printing the fucker, I say that being able to choose just what to print, and being able to print parts of it multiple times (within reason for titles that are not released with licenses that allow sharing
) are marked advantages to PDFs.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:23 pm
by Surgo
Not to mention, plenty of non-Apple smartphones are popular these days.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:51 pm
by Lago PARANOIA
TheFlatline wrote:
The successful electronic replacement of an RPG book I suspect will not actually be much of a book, but moreso an interactive program that offers more than just an inferior reading experience. It can help you generate your character, it can go through, analyze your character, and pick out rules, exceptions, spell lists, and everything else that you need, assemble it as a braindump, and parse it as part of a printable character. I think it'll have to be a tool more than just an e-doc, because the technology needs another paradigm evolution or two in order to catch up to a dead tree book for the large majority of the planet.
I believe that for the next 10-15 years or so, judging on how technology advances (applications for reading electronic material are only slightly ahead of replacing books now as they were 10 years ago) books will still be the primary tool for getting people to the TTRPG game.
In the meantime future TTRPGs will have to learn to integrate electronic software into the gameplaying experience. It's just too convenient. The D&D character builder, despite being incomplete and slow as fuck, was a huge hit with my players when I ran a 4E D&D game. Hell, even though I own book copies of the Monster Manuals and Monster Manual 2 for 3E, 3.5E, and 4E I also have (legally purchased through DriveThruRPG) pdfs of the Monster Manuals. I find the ability to print out monster sheets and cut out the information I need to tape/staple that to a smaller sheet extremely convenient.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:28 pm
by Endroren
adamjury wrote:Why do you think you need to jailbreak the iPhone? I'm not a fan of gaming PDFs on it, but GoodReader runs just fine on my iPod touch.
Not only that, but iBooks just added PDF reading (I got the update today) and is available for iPhone/iPod Touch now.
And for what it is worth, the iPad is freaking awesome for gaming PDFs.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:23 pm
by adamjury
iBooks is much slower than GoodReader, in my experience, on the iPad. It's nice that it has PDF support, but the savvy user should stick to GoodReader for now, IMO.
Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:29 pm
by TheFlatline
adamjury wrote:Why do you think you need to jailbreak the iPhone? I'm not a fan of gaming PDFs on it, but GoodReader runs just fine on my iPod touch.
As for printing the fucker, I say that being able to choose just what to print, and being able to print parts of it multiple times (within reason for titles that are not released with licenses that allow sharing
) are marked advantages to PDFs.
I'll stand corrected on the iphone. I was under the impression that they only had kludgy PDF solutions.
Still, I'd hate to read EP on the iphone. Talk about a pain in the ass.