Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Leress »

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1197252962[/unixtime]]
Leress at [unixtime wrote:1196298869[/unixtime]]The person in that thread you quoted wasn't a newbie.

Funny how nobody lept to Caedrus' defense for what Frank said, but when I badmouth Frank, everybody (well, just Voss and Bigode) hates me. W/e. I stopped caring.


Probably because everyone else including Caedrus/Onewing4ngel knew that Frank was insulting the class and it was not a personally attack.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Bigode »

My thoughts exactly, especially on Caedrus.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

Since noone seemed to get back to the Runelord, I'll give my rant.

Runelord

The Runelord is a classic example of the failures of doing exception based design rather than outcome based design. As such, it is difficult to evaluate but not actually all that good. The Runelord has a lot of abilities and thus has a great many "exceptions" to the normal rules built in. This makes discussing things involving a Runelord very difficult.

On the flip side, the Runelord's abilties are generally defensive in nature, which means that most of the time they don't matter. They are supposed to fight what is in fact the most powerful and versatile offense in the game (primary spellcasters) through a baroque series of limited exceptions. This leads them into an arm's race where eventually the wizard drops them in a freezing for followed by an Evard's black tentacles and then they lose at life. For simplicity, we're going to go level by level on encounter outcomes so we don't get dazzled by the bewildering array of abilities.

Forest, not trees.

----

Level 1: Level 1 is a good time to be a Runelord. You get decent hit points, a Base Attack Bonus of +1, and Simple Weapons. You have a morningstar and a light crossbow. This means that you have as good an attack as anyone else and you can drop foes rather easily. Four times per day you can spend a swift action you can cast sanctuary on an ally and get the Dodge feat for free (except it doesn't count for prereqs and has limited uses per day). Even with the AC bonus from your free Dodge, you have a shitty AC as your AC is 10 + Dex + Cha (+1 sometimes). This compares crapily to even the Rogue who gets Studded Leather instead of Charisma and will upgrade to a Chain Shirt before he gets to level 2. Compared to anyone with a shield, he's a joke. You get a save bonus (of +1), but it stacks on top of having the worst saves in the game (one good, two bad), so it actually works out the same on average as if you'd been a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger and just had two good saves to begin with.
Verdict: You can fight goblins almost as well as a Ranger! A worse AC is partially made up for with 2 extra hit points. The fact that you're using a crossbow and a morningstar is not a massive downgrade over a longbow and a warhammer. By the time you get nearly to 2nd level the fact that people will start showing up with high grade chain shirts and mighty bows will make your position worse.

Second Level: On first reading it appears that your position is in all ways worse than it was at 1st level. People start showing up with their first pieces of magic armor and you don't, your weapons are starting to show their inferiority, and you didn't get anything special to do with your primary Charisma. But wait! You get Steal Spell. This is an inordinately complex ability and needs its own writeup:
  • Steal Spell
    This is way too complicated. There, I've said it. There's no indication as to how one is supposed to determine which "spell slot" you steal off a spell-like ability that is usable twice a day vs. usable at-will. Randomly determining a spell slot on even a 1st level Wizard is intractable as they have all those cantrips in addition to things you care about. No indication exists as to whether you randomly generate based on spell's known or spell slots for spontaneous casters. Also it doesn't say what happens if you use this ability on a creature with some spells in your level range and some spells out. Do you randomly generate chances to attempt to steal spells that you can't steal giving the ability a failure chance? In short, this ability is extremely complex and it doesn't say how it works.
    But we get the general idea. You can use it on the party Cleric as an imbue with spell ability to heal other party members (including the cleric if he gets knocked out). At high levels you'll even be able to circumvent the daily casting limits by stealing spells from the Wizard before he goes to bed last night and then casting them in the morning while the Wizard is preparing his new day's spells. What you can't do is meaningfully affect combat with it. If you hit an opponent on the first round of combat (or to be fair: while they are balancing and lack 5 ranks in balance), they may lose a single spell slot.
    Unfortunately, noone gives a damn if they lose a single spell slot at the beginning of combat. Especially not NPC spellcasters, who usually come loaded with substantially more spell slots than they will ever use in this fight against the PCs. It only really affects next combat and even then the effect is pretty minimal except at very low level. As NPCs don't have a "next combat" today, the ability's effect on any combat is pathetic.
    And while you can nominally use the spell you acquired later in this battle or even the next one - you just got a random spell slot off an NPC. Considering all the cantrips and crap on those lists, it will probably do you little good. Worse, it technically doesn't even say that you get to use Charisma to determine the maximum spell level you can cast, so you almost certainly won't be able to cast any medium or high level spells you ever get with it.

Verdict: You're essentially in the same boat, only now it's worse because all your fighter friends are using better stuff so the equipment difference is more noteworthy. Also, your spell stealing is crap and doesn't really work. You don't even have any built-in ability to strike opponents flat footed and you're still low enough level that a blow with a real weapon (you know, the kind you aren't using) would probably drop a spellcaster anyway.

Third Level: I can only think that Glyphward Aura does not do what you think it does. What it does is give the party Wizard a +1 Save and AC bonus if he stands within 10 feet of you. In addition to this being too small of a bonus for people to bother remembering, it's done to other people's characters. You're still stuck being the guy with a crappy set of equipment and no meaningful offensive abilities. You also just didn't get 2nd level spells or anything, so the +1 Attack bonus and 4 hit points you have over a Cleric are now officially insufficient to make you a better tank or damage dealer in melee. So um... the Cleric (not the CoDzilla, just the regular kind) just eclipsed you in combat.
Verdict: You suck. A lot. The character is now essentially an NPC class. You may be better off with an Aristocrat, as they will gain bigger benefits from equipment.

Fourth Level: You get +1 to AC! Also you can theoretically steal 2nd level spells if that ability actually worked or mattered! But your real ability is that you can stop incoming archery attacks (but not outgoing archery) 40-50% of the time. That's... better than windwall or obscuring mist. And it's very comparable to invisibility or reduce person. You even get to do it as a Swift Action. So when it comes to archery duels between your team and a group of enemies, you will marginally outperform a bard. Of course, your offense is at this point frankly laughable. You're using a magical morningstar, but your complete lack of class features or armor means that you had best stay out of Melee.
Verdict: A 4th level Runelord would be a decent 4th or 5th lieutenant in a mass-battle centered game. They would vie strongly for that position with a Dragon Shaman.

Fifth Level: To celebrate the fact that your saves are really bad, you just got +1 to them against magic. You don't care, because at this point your save bonuses start not-stacking with buff effects that Clerics and Bards will be casting on a regular basis. More importantly, you just got a reactive healing ability which in some cases can react to non-damaging actions which can be repeated infinitely. Congratulations, you just got unlimited healing as soon as you get the aid of the right kind of sprite. Not that you have any intrinsic ability to find such an ally, but who are we fooling? But this healing is too small to matter in combat, so really yo're just a naked man in a 5th level world.
Verdict: You per-encounter contribution is virtually unchanged from 4th level, but now you're fighting trolls instead of minotaurs. So your relative position got worse.

Sixth Level You got +1 to every save because you just took your sixth level in a class and got the same +1 to every save that every class gets. Also you got an iterative attack so the fact that you are using a crossbow has just finally come home to kick you in the nuts. Also, if you were using that Sanctuary/Dodge maneuver, you get a second +1 to AC. Um... yeah. Also your Steal Spell continues to stay not-quite level appropriate which would probably be important if that ability made any difference at all.
Verdict: You may actually be outfought by an NPC Warrior of your level at this point. He has like armor and crap. Also his mastery of martial weapons gives him a longbow which can fire twice as opposed to your crossbow which can't. The limited duration archery miss chance you can lay down on that warrior may not be enough to pull you through.

Level Seven: Finally a decent classs feature! If someone targets you specifically with a single target spell of 3rd level or less and you make your save, you can cast it back on people. Also, you can now play complex word games where you can steal all of the party wizard's spells from him during downtime until you get the one you want (of 3rd level or less) and then keep it in inanely title "cold storage" until you want to cast it yourself. Essentially this means that you get one 3rd level spell of your choice once per adventure in addition to on very rare occassions being gifted with a single target spell.
Verdict: You now contribute to the party almost as much as a Wizard Cohort, who I remind you would also be able to cast a 3rd level spell of his choice every adventure (eery day even) as he'd be 5th level.

And that's the best you ever get. At higher levels, your offensive total becomes more and more laughable. Heck, even at this level the Cleric can totally outfight you if he wants because there's divine power. The next level's Spellbinder really isn't that exciting save that it may cause people to throw Save-or-Dies at you and you may make your save (although I wouldn't hold my breath because your saves actually suck), and if that happens you can cast them right back! Pathetic.

---

Exception based design is lame. You can't fight wizards by accumulating +1s and +2s, because Wizards don't even fight that way. You're 8th level, you roll initiave, and if you lose they throw some terrain on you like an Evard's Black Tentacles and then they just ignore you. If you win then you... what? Shoot them with a light crossbow and make them lose a random spell? Throw up a spell binding and try to make the Wizard cast spells on you? Seriously, who cares? The wizard is just going to take a move back and dump the tentacles on you. Your only hope is that the crossbow bolt managed to take that option away from him, in which case he'll panic and leave.

If you want to fight Wizards you have to hit them where it actually hurts: their bad perception skills, their low hit points, and their half-assed tenuous existence when they don't win initiative.

Seriously, you could be a better mage-slayer by writing "Rogue" on your character sheet.

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Frank, you forgot to add "Improved Initiative" on this hypothetical character sheet as well.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Leress »

Wow, that was a lot more in depth than I was going to post. Do you mind if I use parts of this for my critique of the class?
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by JonSetanta »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1197326599[/unixtime]]
If you want to fight Wizards you have to hit them where it actually hurts: their bad perception skills, their low hit points, and their half-assed tenuous existence when they don't win initiative.


If you want to kill Wizards, get 'em while they're young.
Seriously, a low level Wizard is a shit class and a bad time to be alive.
Exterminate em.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Voss »

Not actually helpful, however. You pretty much have to deal with them as the DM throws them at you. In which case, the Vlad Taltos approach is pretty much the best option. At least the D&D version- sneak up, UMD the Anti-magic field scroll in the surprise round and then sneak attack the hell out of him in the normal round.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1197327625[/unixtime]]Wow, that was a lot more in depth than I was going to post. Do you mind if I use parts of this for my critique of the class?


All of my writings are uncopyrighted. Rights not witheld, blah blah blah. If I minded the copy/paste, I wouldn't put things on the web.

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by NoDot »

This is the recruitment thread for a game I'm trying to get in. The issue of infinite Wishes and the Wish Economy are brought up (by me) on page eleven. I thought you guys might like some of the responses.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan »

If you want to kill Wizards, get 'em while they're young.
Seriously, a low level Wizard is a shit class and a bad time to be alive.


Except even at low levels they're toting 1-2 save-or-dies and can still coup de grace with their crossbows. Given a halfway decent decent Dex and Con, even a 1st-level wizard can take down crap decently above his own CR.

Sure, if you're 10th level or whatever, take on the freshman class at the wizard academy, but it's still not a bright idea even if you're 3rd.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by MrWaeseL »

That was pretty tame. And you seemed way too intent on pressing the issue just to show how cool you are, or something.
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Post by Username17 »

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1197377610[/unixtime]]That was pretty tame. And you seemed way too intent on pressing the issue just to show how cool you are, or something.


Well, it's the same argument that The Wish created. People are seriously willing to make the argument that the rules don't say something on the grounds that if they did say that it would be broken. It's really just step two of Oberoni Fallacy.

The problem is that in this case it isn't just ad hoc rules philosophizing. It's setting up an actual game. And in an actual game where people can cast high level spells, Oberoni Fallacies simply raise the question of what the written rules have been replaced with.

Yes, some things are too broken to use as written. But if people have those things, you need to have a basic understanding of how they are actually going to be used. And in a game with characters walking in at 15th level it's basically insane to believe that anything in the Player's Handbook is going to be out of the reach of one or more players.

The Wish loop is quite simple:
  • Wish can give you any magic item, with an XP cost based on how powerful that Magic item is.
  • Spell Like Abilities can grant any wish, regardless of XP Cost, for free.
  • Spell Like Abilities of Wish are available on CR 9 creatures who can be conjured for real with a Level 6 spell.


And while you can use non-core material to get it all way earlier (for example: Chameleon to mimic Demonologist spells FTW), it's not even required. And when you've got stuff like that going on, and you do because it's a 15th level game, you need to come to some kind of understanding.

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by virgil »

Shapechange Overpowered?
Some serious debate going on here as to whether or not it is.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Leress »

NoDot at [unixtime wrote:1197375722[/unixtime]]This is the recruitment thread for a game I'm trying to get in. The issue of infinite Wishes and the Wish Economy are brought up (by me) on page eleven. I thought you guys might like some of the responses.


It is funny how THEMEANDM was twisting your words (by put some in your mouth) like that on page 12.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
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Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

High-level D&D is more fun without Wishes, Miracles, and spells that totally override skill checks. Otherwise, what's the point of Rogue and Fighter type classes?

P.S. The Ring of Three Wishes costs about 97,000+ gp. By the SRD, creating a Staff of Wishes would cost over 50,000+ gp.
Where is Frank's "Wishing for more Wishes" article, as I cannot seem to get the math right for this rules loophole.

P.P.S. I don't understand how being savvy on the rules makes one a "munchkin." The Mean DM probably earned his title.:tonguesmile:

Edit:
Armads wrote:EDIT: Found it. But is it allowed? It's rules seem pretty ridiculous. With BAB +15, full plate grants DR 10/critical hits. Mechanus Armor: At level 15, you get 1 size increase, with the huge stat increases. ????!!! Stone Plate: BAB +15: Gain Earth Glide. ??!!!!!!!! SUN PLATE: GAIN 90ft FLY SPEED (GOOD). CONTINGENT HEAL 1/day. !!!!!!

The Combat feats are just sick. Insightful Strike: DOUBLE CRIT MULTIPLIER AND DOUBLE THREAT RANGE OF WEAPON YOU USE. STACKS WITH IMPROVED CRITICAL. Kaorti Falchion with that feat and keen: 13-20/x7.

[/end rant]


He makes it sound totally broken (it ain't), but I could make an even worse build: 20th level Dwarven Druid with 14 unmodified Con (16 modified) +Shapechange into Gargantuan Scorpion. Periapt of Health +6 and Wish x5 for +5 Con equals 27 Con. Add +6 Con for being Garg. Scorpion and get 33 Con. The Save DC of the Poison ups to DC 31 (10+1/2 level+Con mod). A Dwarven Wizard at 20th level with 16 con would have only a +11 bonus to poison, while a 20th level dwarf barbarian with 16 con raging would have a +21 bonus. This means that the berserking barbarian has a 50% chance of failing the save. Now, for Shapechanging, assuming that the Druid has 10 Strength. The grapple would be +37, 15 BAB+12 Size+10 modified Strength. The 20th level raging Dwarven Berserker, assuming that he pumped all his level-up ability score increases in Strength, he had the Elite Array and put 15 in Strength, he has Belt of Giant Strength +6, is raging, and has Wish x5 for +5 Strength, gets a 39 Strength. 20 BAB+14 Strength+0 size=+34 bonus. This is not counting Enlarge Person or Improved Grapple in either build. Who has the upper hand mechanics wise now?
Plus, if the Druid gets in a pickle, he can shapechange into a flying creature and fly out of range, which means that the Barbarian would need to resort to ranged attacks.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

The "More Wishes" write-up was done a number of times, and most explicitly in the Wish and the Word, but the definitive piece was from Tome of Fiends:
Keith and I wrote:No Wishing for More Wishes!
The 3.5 wish spell is very explicit in what it can do, and extremely vague about what it can't do. It has a big list of things it is capable of, and then tells the DM to ad hoc things if anyone wishes for anything that isn't on that list. Unfortunately, wishing for a Staff of 50 wishes is on the list of things you can wish for. The XP cost is considerable (512,180 XP), but if you get your wishes from a magic item (like a Staff of 50 Wishes) or a spell-like ability (like an Efreet), you don't have to pay that XP cost, so the fact that it is stupidly large doesn't even matter. Needless to say, the game completely breaks down as soon as that happens. So in that spirit, we suggest an alternate list of things wish can do, coupled with some things wish actually can't do:


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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

That's all well and good, but what's the gp cost for said staff?
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Post by Voss »

Min caster level (17)* 9 (spell level)* 375(staff cost factor) = 57,375 gp
Double that for market price. 114,750.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cr ... [br]Staves are absurdly cheap if you make them right. Unfortunately, the sample staves in the DMG are constructed in bizarre and inefficient ways. Take the staff of fire. Fireball and burning hands are both 1 charge. Why the fuck would you bother with burning hands?

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Post by Surgo »

Don't forget that "Each XP in the component costs adds 5 gp to the market price", so add 5 * total XP cost to that.
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Post by Voss »

Huh. Wacky. So add 1,250,000 to the market price. and the creation cost? Damn weird text.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Dammit, the magic item creation rules are so complicated! No wonder no powergamer worth their salt takes Item Creation feats!
Edit: Or do they? I am pretty sure that anything above 100,000 cannot be bought on the open market.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1197269979[/unixtime]]
Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1197252962[/unixtime]]
Leress at [unixtime wrote:1196298869[/unixtime]]The person in that thread you quoted wasn't a newbie.

Funny how nobody lept to Caedrus' defense for what Frank said, but when I badmouth Frank, everybody (well, just Voss and Bigode) hates me. W/e. I stopped caring.


Probably because everyone else including Caedrus/Onewing4ngel knew that Frank was insulting the class and it was not a personally attack.

I now better now.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1197402709[/unixtime]]Huh. Wacky. So add 1,250,000 to the market price. and the creation cost? Damn weird text.


It's 5 gp to market price or 1 XP to the creation cost, not both. Recall that this is the core of the 7th level Cleric "capstone character".

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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Captain_Bleach »

It seems that either way, the staff of Wishes is too expensive to get with a Wish.
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Re: Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

Post by Username17 »

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1197406780[/unixtime]]It seems that either way, the staff of Wishes is too expensive to get with a Wish.


Only under my rules. The PHB rules provide a hard cap for the value of nonmagical goods, but the value of magical goods is uncapped. The limit instead is that the XP cost of the spell goes up when the projected magic item costs more. Which is why the XP cost to wish for a staff of wishes is stupid high.

But the game includes several ways to not have to pay that cost at all, at which point it's just like there was no limit and it didn't cost anything.

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