The Gaming Den

Centurion13 wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:It's really not that dramatic. Topps is a business. They don't want to lose money.

Yeah, you're probably right.

FrankTrollman wrote:... I have seen the moral worth of Battletech fans, and it is not much. I don't like Battletechers any more. Even if I had the power to get them out of their death spiral, I just... wouldn't.

-Username17

Unfortunately, I agree. I have seen the same sort of moral blindness in Magic players as well. They think of ethical behavior as a baboon thinks of classical music.

When I do think of the sycophants on the CGL board, I no longer consider them people who share my interests. They are after something quite different. Most of the people who agreed with me on this topic over the CGL forums are gone.

The monomania, the attention to detail on a game system describing a world which does not and never will exist - it all made sense as long as we remembered it was a game. When the head of the company made off with the dough and his buddies piled on to defend him, it stopped being about the game (if it ever was for them). Or at least it stopped being fun.

When my fan-TRO is finished, I am going to play the local game once a month and that's it. I can't stand any more of the politics and the brownnosing and the jockeying for position in an organization which ultimately fills the pockets of a handful of people and makes fools of the rest.

Cent13

Agreed. Initially, I was quite amused at the self-deluded triumphalist outpourings of the BT guys, as if conning people out of money (and not being punished for it) is a good thing.

But it all leaves a rather unpleasant taste in the mouth. Herb Beas' gloating at the expense of the Dumpshock "doommongers" is in particularly bad taste. This whole saga is really trying my patience with the whole BattleTech thing. I'm not sure that my love of the game can overcome my disgust at the the pitiful delusions of grandeur of the BT crew. Still, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at the actions of people who (without any appreciable irony) can refer to themselves as The Powers That Be.

EDIT: @Centurion13 - I've just noticed your posts on the CBT forums. I admire your attempts to show the BTechers that their confidence in CGL's fortune may be misplaced but I think you're on a hiding to nothing. Beas, and his wanker cronies, are not to be gainsayed. Not on their own manor...

setmonster wrote:Agreed. Initially, I was quite amused at the self-deluded triumphalist outpourings of the BT guys, as if conning people out of money (and not being punished for it) is a good thing.

You know? It really weirds me to see them write that - as though survival of the game itself, in any form, at any cost, overrides any other consideration.

setmonster wrote:Herb Beas' gloating at the expense of the Dumpshock "doommongers" is in particularly bad taste. ...I'm not sure that my love of the game can overcome my disgust at the the pitiful delusions of grandeur of the BT crew. Still, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at the actions of people who (without any appreciable irony) can refer to themselves as The Powers That Be.

I am singularly unimpressed with Herb, but then, he's alway struck me as a bit...odd. I once told my son never to place his trust in someone who preferred the company of animals over children. There is something fundamentally wrong with an individual who considers animals the equal of men - because it implies a willingness, even an eagerness, to lower men to the status of animals.

And Herb is self-admittedly that kind of person. It colors everything he says and every decision he makes. I don't trust him. And I don't find it the least bit unusual to find him resolutely unfazed by everything that has been going on. So he is happy IMR's shenanigans have not yet cost them the license?

Well, being who he is and considering what he does, of course he would say that.

Cent13

Centurion13 wrote:

setmonster wrote:Agreed. Initially, I was quite amused at the self-deluded triumphalist outpourings of the BT guys, as if conning people out of money (and not being punished for it) is a good thing.

You know? It really weirds me to see them write that - as though survival of the game itself, in any form, at any cost, overrides any other consideration.

setmonster wrote:Herb Beas' gloating at the expense of the Dumpshock "doommongers" is in particularly bad taste. ...I'm not sure that my love of the game can overcome my disgust at the the pitiful delusions of grandeur of the BT crew. Still, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at the actions of people who (without any appreciable irony) can refer to themselves as The Powers That Be.

I am singularly unimpressed with Herb, but then, he's alway struck me as a bit...odd. I once told my son never to place his trust in someone who preferred the company of animals over children. There is something fundamentally wrong with an individual who considers animals the equal of men - because it implies a willingness, even an eagerness, to lower men to the status of animals.

And Herb is self-admittedly that kind of person. It colors everything he says and every decision he makes. I don't trust him. And I don't find it the least bit unusual to find him resolutely unfazed by everything that has been going on. So he is happy IMR's shenanigans have not yet cost them the license?

Well, being who he is and considering what he does, of course he would say that.

Cent13

Indeed. I get the impression that Beas is the type of bizarre, semi-autistic loon (like Jason Hardy) that you would expect to be a "Special Friend" of the likes of L.L. Coleman and R.N. Bills.

I mean, it's Beas who is responsible for the hyper-apocalyptic metaplot that passes for story in BattleTech these days. I used to think all those quips on the CBT forum relating to Beas' liking for nuclear war and genocide were just humour. But now, I don't believe they are. Never mind CGL being forced into bankruptcy - I reckon Herbert Beas should be Sectioned.

Centurion13 wrote:I once told my son never to place his trust in someone who preferred the company of animals over children. There is something fundamentally wrong with an individual who considers animals the equal of men - because it implies a willingness, even an eagerness, to lower men to the status of animals.

This is why you should keep your random Christian wanks out of this thread. You just insulted half the posters here for no apparent reason, and I'm not sure if you are even aware that criticizing people who own cats and don't want kids is very extreme.

This sort of random retardation could easily divert the thread, so please confine your criticism to things that are at least based on something at all besides your strange religious convictions. I ignore your random harping about how everyone's problems are caused by immorality and not stupidity, but just try to keep the random tangent insults to a minimum.

Alastair Reynolds Sectioned? Or something else?

Oy, did the Concern Troll just grunt? Mmm, loves me that Ignore Button.

Cent13

Centurion13 wrote:Alastair Reynolds Sectioned? Or something else?

Sorry. I lapsed into British slang.

To be Sectioned refers to being forcibly detained under Section 2 or 3 of the UK's Mental Health Act. It's used on people who refuse to take their medication and/or are considered a danger to themselves or others.

In the US it is called "51 50"

-Username17

setmonster wrote:

Centurion13 wrote:Alastair Reynolds Sectioned? Or something else?

Sorry. I lapsed into British slang.

To be Sectioned refers to being forcibly detained under Section 2 or 3 of the UK's Mental Health Act. It's used on people who refuse to take their medication and/or are considered a danger to themselves or others.

I don't know if he fits that category or not. I just know the signs and what comes next is not surprising. So far as I can tell, he does no harm but to fictional people. And fanboy egos.

Ha! Some dolt, probably Cowlick, just ducked over to Fanboi Central and lambasted me for insulting the rank and file. How dare I? Apparently, having religious delusions bars me from commenting on the sad state of ethics in the BT community. Also apparently, said dolt has much time on his hands.

But like I said, most of the folks there who actually cared about such things are already gone. Hell, I only stop by to amuse myself with Herb's pithy asides and see what new art is on the up and up. But that's pretty much it.

I have seen the rank and file ala Clutch. They deserve the company leaders they get.

Cent13

FrankTrollman wrote: I genuinely feel that I owe nothing to the Battletech community. They have earned my contempt, and they have it.

Thanks, but no thanks. I am still full up on the servings of sour grapes you have been handing out.

Cent13, please do keep posting. I find it quite entertaining. You really are the perfect poster child for the Cult of Frank. Tell us more about these Inner Rings.

Taharqa wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote: I genuinely feel that I owe nothing to the Battletech community. They have earned my contempt, and they have it.

Thanks, but no thanks. I am still full up on the servings of sour grapes you have been handing out.

Cent13, please do keep posting. I find it quite entertaining. You really are the perfect poster child for the Cult of Frank. Tell us more about these Inner Rings.

The Battletech community != the posters on the Battletech message boards.

Most people on the forum play, but then again most people who play don't post or post rarely on the forums. I'm a fan of Battletech, what proof do I really have that Coleman is a douche, Frank's word and that of maybe one or two other sources. That's enough to cast aspersions but not enough to convict. I've mentioned I won't be buying CGL until this is settled, that's an ethical act and as me and Taharqa seem to be the only Battletechers who post where then whatever side of the fence you're on you have to say that 50% of Battletech players are ethical.

Most people who visit Dumpshock or the Battletech forms aren't interested in the shadowy wheelings and dealings of the writers, they just want to play their game. I don't know why you think a few allegations from you and a few other employees would make them sit up and take notice. Does any game have customers that ethical? Are people in general that ethical?

Sometimes people who do bad things get away with it. Lots of times, in fact (Eliott Spitzer for instance).

One has to make their own choices based on the best information available (and no, that would not just be Frank's word), and I will not be purchasing anymore Battletech or Shadowrun products until the license moves on from Catalyst. I doubt they'll miss my money, but I also think the folks from CthulhuTech and Eclipse Phase *will* appreciate those dollars being spent on their products.

Oh, and Taharqa, I don't think you know what the term "sour grapes" means. It is pretending to not care about something you did not get. It does not apply to someone expressing regret over an outcome he does not care for.

setmonster wrote:Indeed. I get the impression that Beas is the type of bizarre, semi-autistic loon (like Jason Hardy) that you would expect to be a "Special Friend" of the likes of L.L. Coleman and R.N. Bills.

I have worked with both Beas and Hardy, and I would not not lump Hardy into the same category as Beas.

adamjury wrote:
I have worked with both Beas and Hardy, and I would not not lump Hardy into the same category as Beas.

I've never noticed the work of Beas, I couldn't say.

Anyway: Speaking of Jason, confirmation has been achieved that we're looking at the extension through GenCon and not a multi-year affair.

In other news, IMR has not changed their practices on sending out checks even after all that has happened - so the people who worked on 6WA won't be seeing a dime for some time. Maybe ever.

But here's the really funny one: IMR is currently in default on their contracts for Vice. I know, that one surprised me too. After all, didn't the checks clear on that one a while ago? Yes they did. Here's the problem: the contracts also entitle everyone who worked on the thing to on or more comp copies of the book. And Loren Coleman sent the entire stock to PSI in exchange for money. So now unless and until they buy some copies back from their distributor or order a new printing (not gong to happen), they can't live up to their contract. Of course, it doesn't matter if everyone pulls copyright now, because LLC already sold all the physical books.

So what was the last promise that Loren Coleman made that he kept? I'm guessing something involving Runner's Companion, first printing.

-Username17

Centurion13 wrote:Unfortunately, I agree. I have seen the same sort of moral blindness in Magic players as well. They think of ethical behavior as a baboon thinks of classical music.

What happened in the Magic: The Gathering community to force you to come to this conclusion? I find it hard to believe that they could match - or god, forbid, surpass - Battletech fans in terms of moral and ethical retardation at this point.

You guys are bat-shit crazy.

Let it go.

"It's over man, Wormer dropped the big one."

Clutch

Ganbare Gincun wrote:

Centurion13 wrote:Unfortunately, I agree. I have seen the same sort of moral blindness in Magic players as well. They think of ethical behavior as a baboon thinks of classical music.

What happened in the Magic: The Gathering community to force you to come to this conclusion? I find it hard to believe that they could match - or god, forbid, surpass - Battletech fans in terms of moral and ethical retardation at this point.

Eh, you know how it is at the local shop level. I have seen chicanery at the gaming table you would not believe. We had an EDH league where a father and son were colluding, tag-teaming the rest of the table at will. We had some players who saw the format as a race to see who could get their infinite loop off first. The banned list grew and grew, but now they are running a league which rewards points simply for winning and for accomplishing something from a list of goals.

No king-makers in this league, anyway.

The temptation to cheat, and to vigorously defend shady methods of play which obey the letter of the law but violate the spirit - it's not just in BT.

There are two kinds of people in this scenario. The first kind experiences a loss by cheating and says to themselves "That was horrible. I will never do that to anyone else if I am in the same position of power".

The other kind says "Now - it's my turn".

Cent13

Also: Eclipse Phase won best RPG of the year at Origins today. Congratulations, guys.

-Username17

Cult of Frank? WTF?

Is this the new distraction now? Can't argue on principle, so...

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:Cult of Frank? WTF?

Is this the new distraction now? Can't argue on principle, so...

-Crissa

Yes. People who have moral reservations about supporting a company that steals from its creative staff or who question the value of purchasing product that has been released with little or no editing are part of the "Cult of Frank." Because obviously the only possible reason for anyone to do anything is that they are followers of a cult of personality.

To put this in perspective, let's look at the recent (and by recent I mean this year) books that IMR put together for Shadowrun:

Book	Legal Issues	Subjective Issues
Ghost Cartels	Late Payments
Vice	Late Payments Sold All Copies without saving any for Comps
Midnight	Sold Copies During Copyright Freeze Late Payments	Based on a really shitty plotline
Spells & Chrome	Sold as pdf without being printed to avoid royalty deadlines	Written by people with no SR experience Little or no editing.
Corp Guide	Used Copyright Material Unlawfully	Contains numerous factual errors. Is a very obvious rush job.
6WA	After the developer promised to not use withdrawn material, used withdrawn material No guaranty that the authors will ever be paid.	Contains numerous factual errors. Editing is very bad (example: text blocks repeated)

But yes. Obviously the only reason that people would be unhappy with such a record is that they are members of a personality cult that follows a different personality than Randall Bills' own personality cult.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Also: Eclipse Phase won best RPG of the year at Origins today. Congratulations, guys.

Awesome. My first (and only) experience with the game was unpleasant, but I recognise some good content in it. And seeing as you're here to read congratulations, they are due.

setmonster wrote:EDIT: @Centurion13 - I've just noticed your posts on the CBT forums. I admire your attempts to show the BTechers that their confidence in CGL's fortune may be misplaced but I think you're on a hiding to nothing. Beas, and his wanker cronies, are not to be gainsayed. Not on their own manor...

Well... I don't have to do much but note that (a) I am still playing and working on a fan TRO. That and spending a ton of my own and others money on artwork for something for which we will never be paid a dime should send the message that I am with the game 100%.

But as was mentioned, it goes beyond loyalty to the game into loyalty to certain individuals charged with making that game. And that is where I have my problem. Or so it would appear. Note (b) is where I gently (for me) remind folks that it's far from over. I am waiting for them to throw the rascals out, but as with politics, that may never happen as long as the rank and file are supporting the faces and ignoring their depredations.

As for getting a hiding from Herb, c'est la vie, as he would likely say. I consider the source and regard it accordingly. I am very careful not to say anything on that site which would prompt them to delete my posts, but you never know. Herb has his own followers; the post count for those folks alone should give some indication of how often they are online versus actually playing the game.

It's still a free country and they can say what they like. I know who I am, and how much BS I will stand for, and when it gets to be too much. Yes, they are on their own turf. All the more reason to gently remind them...

Cent13

Clutch9800 wrote:"It's over man, Wormer dropped the big one."

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

(I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.)

adamjury wrote:

setmonster wrote:Indeed. I get the impression that Beas is the type of bizarre, semi-autistic loon (like Jason Hardy) that you would expect to be a "Special Friend" of the likes of L.L. Coleman and R.N. Bills.

I have worked with both Beas and Hardy, and I would not not lump Hardy into the same category as Beas.

Right. So by that I infer that it's only Beas who is the total mentalist...

FrankTrollman wrote:Also: Eclipse Phase won best RPG of the year at Origins today. Congratulations, guys.

-Username17

I'm heartily glad of this. I'm looking forward to my copy. Should be here Monday.

TheFlatline wrote:

Clutch9800 wrote:"It's over man, Wormer dropped the big one."

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

(I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.)

germans . .