Things that make you lose faith in the human race...

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm

I was just pointing out that no one could find an example of the myth as suicide rather than myth as herd behavior.

-Crissa

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:01 pm

Crissa wrote:I was just pointing out that no one could find an example of the myth as suicide rather than myth as herd behavior.

Except you know, every single person who mentioned it.

I was just pointing out that no one could ever find an example of Crissa posting.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Clearly there would not be a call to debunk the lemming suicide myth if it did not exist.

It presumably originated with a disney director misunderstanding the difference between suicide and death by dispersal, then spread to a whole meme about lemmings being suicidal.

Hell, just look at lemming cartoons.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:07 pm

And this entire lemmings discussion follows suit.......this thread has gone over the cliff.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:50 pm

...And again, none of those mention intentional suicide. Well, except the last one, though the cartoon isn't really very clear what its point is. The second one is very clear the lemmings are following to their deaths without considering that it is suicide.

So where is the 'myth' that they intentionally commit suicide to lower their numbers, and don't just accidentally make group movements into death?

-Crissa

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:09 pm

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming wrote:Wikipedia: Lemming[/url]]The myth of lemming mass suicide is long-standing and has been popularized by a number of factors. In 1955, Disney Studio illustrator Carl Barks drew an Uncle Scrooge adventure comic with the title "The Lemming with the Locket". This comic, which was inspired by a 1954 National Geographic Society article, showed massive numbers of lemmings jumping over Norwegian cliffs. Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which footage was shown that seems to show the mass suicide of lemmings.

...

Due to their association with this odd behavior, lemming suicide is a frequently-used metaphor in reference to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. This metaphor is seen many times in popular culture, such as in the video game Lemmings, and in episodes of Red Dwarf and Adult Swim's show Robot Chicken.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:10 pm

Shut up Crissa, you're embarrassing yourself.

-Username17

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:29 pm

"Even more influential was the 1958 Disney film White Wilderness, which won an Academy Award for Documentary Feature, in which footage was shown that seems to show the mass suicide of lemmings. A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation documentary, Cruel Camera, found that the lemmings used for White Wilderness were flown from Hudson Bay to Calgary, Alberta, Canada, where they did not jump off the cliff, but in fact were launched off the cliff using a turntable."

Wow, disney is fokking evil.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 am

Okay, so one filmmaker made a cruel film and sold it to Disney. Disney didn't 'make' the segment. If you want to know how Disney made segments of film in that era, watch the movie, The Wizard of Speed and Time.

And you guys are just repeating yourselves. At no point has it been shown that lemmings do not in fact die due to flock behavior. In fact, the opposite is true, they do flock off cliffs and into impassable streams and inlets of the ocean only to die.

So... You're only trying to distract from the subject. The fact is, lemmings do die in following flock behavior. So the metaphor 'like lemmings' is apt.

-Crissa

...In another turn of events, perhaps Fox is 'spinning' lemmings off the cliff. Is that better?

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 am

I do not understand, Crissa. Since you do accept people's assertions at having heard and even believing the myth themselves, nor do you accept the narration where the myth was spawned, is there anything that could convince you?

I used to think it was true because I was taught it at some point and the only time I ever heard lemmings discussed was to describe suicidal tendencies.

If people having believed a myth as true is insufficient proof of it existing (is not that what it means for a myth TO EXIST?) then I probably don't need to read your posts in this thread. =-)

[edit] so... Is your assertion now not that the myth does not exist but rather that it is true?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:04 am

So just to be clear.

1) It is physically impossible for any human being to believe that lemmings are suicidal.

2) No such myth exists.

3) Therefore, the phrase "Like Lemmings" explicitly referring to suicidal behavior, could not possibly exist. And we are all crazy people and only Crissa can possibly know anything of any kind.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:08 am

The wiki does state that some Lemmings die due to drowning during the course of mass migration.

That is more akin to someone getting trampled underneath a mob rather than a man just lying down to be trampled by the mob.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:06 am

So, in using 'like lemmings' to refer to following the crowd behavior, how is that a myth?

None of the debunking sites said anything other than 'lemmings don't intentionally commit suicide to relieve population stress' which is kinda like saying 'bunnies don't intentionally not have litters when their warren is overpopulated.'

No, I do not accept secondhand, unverified reports that since someone, somewhere, thought that 'like lemmings' means 'to commit suicide' rather than 'to follow the crowd' means that the second meaning is a myth!

-Crissa

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:51 am

Firsthand, until this thread I thought it was true that lemmings were suicidal at times because that is all I had ever heard about them.

I already said as much except was less specific about my enlightenment.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:06 am

This is like hundreds of thousands > a million again.

Follow Frank's advice.

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:20 pm

I’m probably going on a limb here but I don’t think there are any animals that intentionally commit suicide with the one exception of those animals that are in a strong state of confusion and those animals who are in a situation where perpetual struggling to barely stay alive is required and inaction leads to death. That isn’t to say that a casual observer could not look at behavior and use the expression “That’s suicide.” Unfortunately, that is using a sloppy and incorrect definition of the word. Suicide is defined as “the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally” and “the deliberate and intentional destruction of his own life by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind.”

On the other hand (there I go again) it’s perfectly ok to consider lemmings’ actions as “suicidal” while at the same time not “suicide.” Webster does define suicidal as, “destructive of one's own interests.” Texting while driving, for example, is not suicide, but it is suicidal as being in an accident is destructive of one’s own interest.

Thus some animals may commit actions that are suicidal, but they do not commit suicide.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:13 pm

OR, lemmings are used in a manner not having to do with death, but to the point that they do just follow each other around without "questioning" where they are going. They just do whatever the leader does.