Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum

[Kaelik]

I see a couple of problems: 1) How on earth is the Factotum going to deal with a low Ref gaint? Nothing with a Ref that can hold a giant off doesn't also break line of effect. Also, Factotums suck at "dealing with shit" When you have a crippled X, Rogues are great, and Fighters are okay, but Factotums are Experts with 3 spells.

2) Telepathy is not mindsight. You are confused. You can sneak up on things like that all day.

[Danchild]

An Evil Necromancer.
If the Necromancer is as optimized as the Factotum then they both lose.

A horde of Shadows.
I don't know how many a horde is, but neither of these characters is particularly well equipped to fight them, they should both use their abilities to withdraw, IMHO.

Necromancer comes down to initiative. Black tentacles followed by A cunning surged Stinking Cloud. As you say, it is a matter of optimisation and not a certainty.

Horde of Shadows. Use higher level SLA's to cast control undead. Opportunistic Peity could allow for maybe 2 Shadows to be turned. Withdrawal is a sound strategy. It is possible to whittle down the numbers over time, but then that puts the factotum at risk of being overwhelmed in melee.

IRL combat is exhauasting, physically and mentally. Fatigue kills. I find it interesting that people think that infinite ammo has more vermisillitude. than the 5 minute workday.

[Kaelik]

Necromancer comes down to initiative. Black tentacles followed by A cunning surged Stinking Cloud. As you say, it is a matter of optimisation and not a certainty.

Horde of Shadows. Use higher level SLA's to cast control undead. Opportunistic Peity could allow for maybe 2 Shadows to be turned. Withdrawal is a sound strategy. It is possible to whittle down the numbers over time, but then that puts the factotum at risk of being overwhelmed in melee.

IRL combat is exhauasting, physically and mentally. Fatigue kills. I find it interesting that people think that infinite ammo has more vermisillitude. than the 5 minute workday.

Necromancers have enough minions to easy kill you.

Horde of Shadows, you prepare Control Undead in your higher level spells every day? Really?

Once again, Combat ends. When you do as much HP damage in one round as a CR 10 enemy has HP, you can actually count on the fact that combat will be over before you have used infinity flasks. Infinity flasks is not what you are using. You are using like 4-8 full attacks worth in an entire four encounter day.

[LR]

It's even worse. Control Undead is a 7th level spell. He's probably thinking of Command Undead, which is single-target and allows a Will save.

Edit: Factotums can't prepare more than one copy of any spell. The Factotum has the chance to control one shadow. Running away isn't even an option, because Shadows are something that you need to put down as soon as you see them.

[Juton]

The real danger with the shadows is that they could probably knock both PCs out with two lucky hits, or 4 regular hits if we take the average, combined with the fact they do touch attacks and you could potentially be fighting 12 of them, I wouldn't risk that combat.

The Necromancer probably has improved initiative and nerve skitter and maybe a celerity if he has some way of not being surprised, the Factotum's probably comes close initiative wise. Even then the necromancer would probably have minions between themselves and their opponent.

[Kaelik]

But let's ignore the fact that uber combo is not rules legal and doesn't work on a single CR 10 monster in the MM. That shits even less important than the part where you claim that I talk about multiclassing and 6th level spells and +17 BAB but then can't back it up because you were totally wrong.

[LR]

The Necromancer probably has improved initiative and nerve skitter and maybe a celerity if he has some way of not being surprised, the Factotum's probably comes close initiative wise. Even then the necromancer would probably have minions between themselves and their opponent.

If the Necromancer has minions, he's a Cleric and can auto-attack the Factotum to death.

[Orion]

A 10th level Necromancer wizard totally can Animate Dead a few giants.

And I'm pretty sure he can just dimension door out of EBT.

[Danchild]

It's even worse. Control Undead is a 7th level spell. He's probably thinking of Command Undead, which is single-target and allows a Will save.

You are correct. I was thinking of command undead. Not helpful against a horde of shadows. Potentially useful against a smaller group even if to set one against the other.

That shits even less important than the part where you claim that I talk about multiclassing and 6th level spells and +17 BAB but then can't back it up because you were totally wrong.

You are correct. I have made false statements. But so have you, so do not try and claim the moral high ground

So that's what? 20% chance once per day to get a CR 12 creature at best? What are you going to do with it? Run messages? It's not useful in a fight or anything, I guess at level 15 you can enter the Wish eceonomy, but if you aren't playing by Tome Rules, everyone else had Rings of Three Wishes at level 3, and used them to Wish for more rings

This would have to be my favorite. What is whe WBL of a level 3 character? Somewhere between 3 and 5 k gold right? Called creatures not useful at all?

[ubernoob]

Infinite wealth is trivially easy in D&D. It can be had as early as level 1.

Edit: If you were smart, your answer to 'horde of shadows' would be 'fireball.' But you're not smart, so be quiet while the grown ups talk.

[Psychic Robot]

Infinite wealth is bullshit and shouldn't be considered anything but a bad joke in a comparison playtest.

[Maxus]

Infinite wealth is trivially easy in D&D. It can be had as early as level 1.

Edit: If you were smart, your answer to 'horde of shadows' would be 'fireball.' But you're not smart, so be quiet while the grown ups talk.

Uber, shut up. It wasn't even that amusing when Frank said it yesterday. Continually using it isn't doing anything.

[ubernoob]

Maxus, fix your quote tags. Also, I reserve the right to be a dick when I'm right.

Edit: You ninja edited me to get the tag fix. Thanks.

[Danchild]

If the Necromancer has minions, he's a Cleric and can auto-attack the Factotum to death.

True. It would be fair to note that the Factotum can aso have minions via Animate Dead. The Factotum will still lose. It will just take slightly longer.

Edit: If you were smart, your answer to 'horde of shadows' would be 'fireball.' But you're not smart, so be quiet while the grown ups talk.

Fireball? Really? 14k gold for a lesser rod of chaining. Command undead can now effect a decent chunk of the horde. As for making sure command undead is prepared, keep rope trick on your list. Not going to help in a surprise attack.

[LR]

Fireball? Really? 14k gold for a lesser rod of chaining. Command undead can now effect a decent chunk of the horde. As for making sure command undead is prepared, keep rope trick on your list. Not going to help in a surprise attack.

Even giving you the tenuous claim that Metamagic Rods work at all with the Factotum's SLAs, the chained Commands have a base DC of 8 and the Shadows are immune to strength damage twice, so they won't help you at all against the other Shadows. Rope Trick can't help you either. The Shadows fly away and find other things to kill. By the time you have Command Undead, you'll be fighting an army of Shadows.

[Zeezy]

Edit: If you were smart, your answer to 'horde of shadows' would be 'fireball.' But you're not smart, so be quiet while the grown ups talk.

Are you seriously suggesting a level 10 factotum is going to blow one of his four spell slots on fireball in a general load-out?

Fireball? Really? 14k gold for a lesser rod of chaining. Command undead can now effect a decent chunk of the horde. As for making sure command undead is prepared, keep rope trick on your list. Not going to help in a surprise attack.

If you're going to pull that, you may as well prepare fireball because that 10d6 is going to potentially wipe more shadows out, not to mention they have a 10% worse chance of succeeding their saving throws (Ref +3 vs. Will +4, level 3 spell vs. level 2). Oh, and that's against the primary target; against secondary targets, the chance to fail increases by 30%, since the save DC goes down by 4.

On top of all this, you are going to miss at least one shadow with command undead, because there are 12, and you are only target 11 thanks to Chain Spell. Besides that, there are problems with both strategies. First, fireball has a 50% chance of missing each and every shadow, since it's not positive energy or force damage. Second, shadows can do shitall to their fellow shadows, since their only attack deals strength damage, whereas shadows have strength as a nonability, so I have no idea why you even bothered to suggest Chained command undead as a viable option -- on top of which, every shadow besides the initial target has a 50% chance of succeeding their Will save versus command undead (assuming Intelligence 24).

The factotum is going to run. He is going to use his inspiration points to quintuple-move the fuck away from the shadows. They might not chase him down, but if they do, the factotum is going to die, because the factotum cannot outrun them unless he is literally running.

[ubernoob]

Edit: If you were smart, your answer to 'horde of shadows' would be 'fireball.' But you're not smart, so be quiet while the grown ups talk.

Are you seriously suggesting a level 10 factotum is going to blow one of his four spell slots on fireball in a general load-out?

Fireball? Really? 14k gold for a lesser rod of chaining. Command undead can now effect a decent chunk of the horde. As for making sure command undead is prepared, keep rope trick on your list. Not going to help in a surprise attack.

If you're going to pull that, you may as well prepare fireball because that 10d6 is going to potentially wipe more shadows out, not to mention they have a 10% worse chance of succeeding their saving throws (Ref +3 vs. Will +4, level 3 spell vs. level 2). Oh, and that's against the primary target; against secondary targets, the chance to fail increases by 30%, since the save DC goes down by 4.

On top of all this, you are going to miss at least one shadow with command undead, because there are 12, and you are only target 11 thanks to Chain Spell. Besides that, there are problems with both strategies. First, fireball has a 50% chance of missing each and every shadow, since it's not positive energy or force damage. Second, shadows can do shitall to their fellow shadows, since their only attack deals strength damage, whereas shadows have strength as a nonability, so I have no idea why you even bothered to suggest Chained command undead as a viable option -- on top of which, every shadow besides the initial target has a 50% chance of succeeding their Will save versus command undead (assuming Intelligence 24).

The factotum is going to run. He is going to use his inspiration points to quintuple-move the fuck away from the shadows. They might not chase him down, but if they do, the factotum is going to die, because the factotum cannot outrun them unless he is literally running.

You're right, fireball isn't good enough when you only get one per day. I kind of forgot just how incredibly shitty the factotum's spellcasting is.

[Danchild]

Even giving you the tenuous claim that Metamagic Rods work at all with the Factotum's SLAs, the chained Commands have a base DC of 8 and the Shadows are immune to strength damage twice, so they won't help you at all against the other Shadows. Rope Trick can't help you either. The Shadows fly away and find other things to kill. By the time you have Command Undead, you'll be fighting an army of Shadows.

The description of their spellcasting states they can apply metamagic when they prepare. It is not a great leap that a Metamagic Rod can apply when cast, but I can understand it might not work that way due to the description of SLA's.

My thinking behind command undead was that a 25% chance of a friendly shadow was better than a 25% chance of a dead one.

Otherwise blow a 4th level for Vortex of Teeth. Force effects ignore incorporeal right? Probably not going to be prepared every day, but it is within the factotums capabilities.

[Calibron]

I'll do the damn SGT if someone tells me what book the Factotum is from.

The only reason I keep logging in recently is because I found out that Bigode sent me a PM inviting me to a private forum that people other than just Frank and Koumei actually contribute meaningful material to right after I left this rotting husk of a forum and I'm hoping he'll eventually message me back after I replied to him over two months after the fact.

[Leress]

I'll do the damn SGT if someone tells me what book the Factotum is from.

Dungeonscape

[Koumei]

right after I left this rotting husk of a forum

Rotting husk? ROTTING HUSK? What do you mean, rotting husk? Is this Communist talk? Do you want me to call a policeman and have you arrested?

(Name the quote)

[Lago PARANOIA]

Koumei, you got put on the short list of good material contributors and I didn't?!

You have just made a powerful enemy, Australian.

The only reason I keep logging in recently is because I found out that Bigode sent me a PM inviting me to a private forum that people other than just Frank and Koumei actually contribute meaningful material to right after I left this rotting husk of a forum and I'm hoping he'll eventually message me back after I replied to him over two months after the fact.

You need to relax, guy, and enjoy the death spiral.

[Kaelik]

You are correct. I have made false statements. But so have you, so do not try and claim the moral high ground

Actually, I have made one single false statement. Not false statements. And being incorrect about one thing is slightly different than repeatedly lying about what other people have said. It's not a moral high ground, it's a factual high ground.

But I do like how you edit out of my quote the part about how your uber strategy to take down CR 10s can't even beat a single CR 10 because Factotums casting two and a half levels behind suck so bad.

This would have to be my favorite. What is whe WBL of a level 3 character? Somewhere between 3 and 5 k gold right? Called creatures not useful at all?

You know, maybe you weren't lying about what I said, maybe you just really are that stupid.

You whined about how at level 15 a Factotum can Planar Bind once per day. Ignoring the success chance of that, because it depends on what you decide to call, but will fail most of the time against most things you'd actually want, What the fuck is that 12HD monster good for?

You can do one of three things: 1) Have a shitty minion for one fight at the cost of 3 spells. Suck.
2) Have him run letters for you with his Greater Teleport. Suck.
3) Abuse stupid Wish wording for infinite Wealth. If Infinite Wealth is allowed at all, then anyone can get it at level 3.

So no, I did not claim that people actually have infinite Wealth, because infinite wealth is stupid, I preempted your claim that Factotums can have infinite Wealth at level 15 and where therefore better than Rogues.

[hogarth]

He has a chance against the Mind flayers if the build is good but should probably try to run from dragon and shadows and will probably get owned by the Necromancer.

Assuming he gets initiative, a factotum can cast Death Ward, right? That gives immunity to shadows.

[Kaelik]

He has a chance against the Mind flayers if the build is good but should probably try to run from dragon and shadows and will probably get owned by the Necromancer.

Assuming he gets initiative, a factotum can cast Death Ward, right? That gives immunity to shadows.

No he can't. Factotums can only prepare spells from the Wizard list, and they have to prepare them ahead of time.

When a level 10 Wizard runs a same game test, you make all his spells prepared, then you have him run the test with the same set of spells.

So prepare the Factotums spells, and then get back to me. Wizard list only, and only 1 4th level spell.