Magic as a D&D Edition Setting

[Whipstitch]

Red would likely be a real benchmark color for the conversion's power level because aside from some land and artifact hate it's a color that has traditionally made its bones with broad, potent soft counters (yes, typically in the form of damage) rather than packing specific counters and silver bullets. Basically, Red is a fairly bad color if you're looking to buff a specific save or gain a particular immunity, but lots of people won't care because Wall of Stone is totally sweet whether you want to use it to get away or to challenge someone to a cage match.

[...You Lost Me]

I really really don't like the idea of spending mana every round to power your abilities, because it seems like something easily simplified to a passive from invested mana. If you get 1 standard action per round and you're using a variety of standard spells that use 3 mana each, the result is pretty much indistinguishable from unlocking a set of spells by investing 3 mana. Also along that line of thought, "deplete" mana can also be an investment that gives you the abilities to do something once per encounter.

The only reason you'd use Deplete and Tap as mechanics is if you have so many abilities that those terms are simpler than saying "Invest 2 mana, get this list of powers". And I really don't think that's something that will come up in MtG.

[Username17]

I really really don't like the idea of spending mana every round to power your abilities, because it seems like something easily simplified to a passive from invested mana. If you get 1 standard action per round and you're using a variety of standard spells that use 3 mana each, the result is pretty much indistinguishable from unlocking a set of spells by investing 3 mana. Also along that line of thought, "deplete" mana can also be an investment that gives you the abilities to do something once per encounter.

Spending mana each turn to power your abilities makes sense in the case of characters who have offensive and defensive powers. The Paladin who has to balance how much to pump into his Holy Strength attack buff and his Circle of Protection defense buff each turn. Or the Troll who has to decide how much extra damage output he wants from Giant's Strength versus how much healing he wants from Regeneration. Like the characters with Multipowers in Champions: they can move active points between Energy Blast, Force Field, and Flight to react to different conditions.

But yeah, many (probably most) characters are not going to be like that. The dynamics of casting two Lightning Bolts versus one Incinerate simply can't exist because you only get one attack before it's the next guy's turn. The dynamics of either casting your fireball now or waiting until you draw more land can't exist either because you aren't going to draw any more land and you get to attack every turn whether you use your fireball or not.

But the Knight class exists, and it exists in every color. And it very clearly gets to shunt mana between its attacks and defenses each turn. It's just that Archers and Artificers and Rogues and Shamans and Druids all equally clearly do not do that.

The only reason you'd use Deplete and Tap as mechanics is if you have so many abilities that those terms are simpler than saying "Invest 2 mana, get this list of powers". And I really don't think that's something that will come up in MtG.

Those terms as Red Rob defined them are basically useless, yes. However, having abilities that are on cooldown makes a lot of sense for the word "Tap". A Tap ability can be used if it is Untapped, and using it Taps it. Subsequently, it has a chance of Untapping at the beginning of each turn (or you could use counters, but lately I prefer making a test because it's less turn by turn accounting).

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

The only reason you'd use Deplete and Tap as mechanics is if you have so many abilities that those terms are simpler than saying "Invest 2 mana, get this list of powers".

Sure, and some classes (like the Monk) would get abilities (Stances) that do exactly that. But for other classes I think having options round to round could work. Let's look at a Berserker that has the following moveset:

Thunder Strike
Cost: Tap R2
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a melee attack. This attack deals +1D6 Lightning damage and any target struck must make a Ref save or be knocked prone.

Whirling Blade
Cost: Tap R1
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a melee attack. If it hits you may make another melee attack against a different target.

Furious Charge
Cost: Tap R1
Action: Full
Effect: Make a charge move. Any attacks made during this charge deal +1D6 damage.

Burning Strike
Cost: Tap R
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a melee attack. This attack deals +1D3 Fire damage.

Intimidating Glare
Cost: Tap R
Action: Swift
Effect: Any target struck by your melee attacks take a -4 penalty to hit you until the start of your next turn. This is a [Mind Affecting, Fear] effect.

Fierce Counterattack
Cost: Tap R
Action: Immediate
Effect: After an opponent makes a melee attack against you, you may make an immediate melee attack against that target.

Whirlwind
Cost: Deplete 1
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a melee attack against each enemy within your reach.

Power Smash
Cost: Deplete R
Action: Standard
Effect: Make a melee attack. This attack deals +1D6 damage and any target struck must make a Fort save or become Stunned for 1 round.

Now, each round there is a choice of powers to use, whether to go for a Thunder Strike or save a mana for Fierce Counterattack, or whether to use a smaller ability and get the Intimidate rider. Then they have the option each turn to use their Deplete abilities, but that then restricts their future actions. Just investing your mana in a set list of abilities seems like it would lead to a different play experience.

[Username17]

That is way more complicated than it needs to be. Just make it so that one class can save an amount of unused mana from turn to turn and have some of their abilities cost more or less than the amount of mana rolling in each turn. An ability that costs more than the base turn recharge rate is something they have to save up for, while an ability that costs less than the base turn recharge rate is something they can use while charging up. You have about two keywords in those costs that are pointless.

But in any case, that's just one character class' resource system. The Knight still runs off a no-saving investment pool. And you're still going to want characters who have a battle-long mana pool that they spend out of. And characters who simply have abilities that they can use and don't have to worry about quantized mana on a turn by turn basis at all.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

That is way more complicated than it needs to be.

I'll admit, that's probably the most complicated implementation of the resource system you'd want for a class. There's a lot of turn-by-turn decision making and resource managing, and it's definitely not for people that don't enjoy that.

But in any case, that's just one character class' resource system. The Knight still runs off a no-saving investment pool. And you're still going to want characters who have a battle-long mana pool that they spend out of. And characters who simply have abilities that they can use and don't have to worry about quantized mana on a turn by turn basis at all.

Maybe I'm not being clear here. A Red Shaman and a Red Berserker have to have things in common that a Green Shaman and a Red Berserker don't. The simplest way to do that, for me, was to have a master list of powers for each colour that characters get to choose from at certain points, but that means that all the classes want to use the same resource management system.

Secondly, each class has to feel unique in play. This suggests that although they all need to use the same basic resources, they need to use them differently. This lead me to the Tap, Deplete and Invest idea. The key thing is not every class is going to use all of these to the same degree. By varying the mechanics each class uses you allow some commonality whilst still having classes play differently from each other. Knights can use Tap abilities to allocate their offense and defense each turn, Clerics can just have a list of Deplete Prayers that act as a battle long resource pool, whilst an Archers trick shots can be Free abilities that they can use at will with maybe some Tap riders they can choose from each turn. But because they each use the same basic system they can all pick abilities from a master list and have that make sense.

But yeah, because it is effectively trying to be 3 or 4 resource systems in one, it is a little complicated. If theres an easier way to do this I'd be happy to look at it.

[Username17]

To get back on the "you should be able to play any class in any color" discussion, let's look at the classes and the mono-color options already available as cards:

Mirodin Class	Colors
Archer	WUBRG
Artificer	WUBRG
Berserker	BRG
Cleric	WUBRG
Knight	WUBRG
Druid	WBRG
Monk	WUBRG
Rogue	WUBRG
Scout	WUBRG
Shaman	WUBRG
Soldier	WUBRG
Warrior	WUBRG
Wizard	WUBRG

There are literally only two classes that don't have a solid example of a card that comes in mono-color of every color. And if you include multicolor cards, that falls even more.

It just doesn't even make sense to try to fuck players out of whatever color/class combination they feel like having for whatever reason.

-Username17

[Username17]

A Red Shaman and a Red Berserker have to have things in common that a Green Shaman and a Red Berserker don't.

Yes. Definitely. Unlike 4e, the "power sources" should actually matter. Especially since your power source is an independent choice and not a given when you select your class.

The simplest way to do that, for me, was to have a master list of powers for each colour that characters get to choose from at certain points, but that means that all the classes want to use the same resource management system.

Well... no. I don't see how that would be simple at all. Every class needs to get different ability lists or your Knights are going to be shooting fire and your Druids performing lance charges from level 1. What needs to happen is that the colors have actual consequences on the characters and the class lists. They can also unlock out-of-combat "rituals" that do actual things.

In designing 4e, Mike Mearls insisted that the divine power source could feel different from the martial power source by writing vague guidelines that Divine Classes should have more Radiant Damage and Healing powers sitting in the wings. The Paladin would heal more than the Fighter, the Cleric would heal more than the Warlord. That didn't work at all. For starters, there was no "non-Divine" Paladin to compare to, and there wasn't any reason to compare that Paladin to any particular other class. Mearls wanted you to compare it to the Fighter because they were the "same role", but there was no real reason to do that. You could compare the Paladin to the Warlord and find that the Martial Warlord gave out considerably more healing than the Divine Paladin.

So for starters you're on much firmer ground in making a Green character "feel Green" or "feel Red" if you're going to compare a Green Berserker to a Red Berserker and a Green Cleric to a Red Cleric. The availability of an obvious apples to apples comparison point is going to allow you to make guidelines that convey feeling much better than the half thought out horse shit Mearls served up for 4e.

Secondly, you can and should be much harsher with mechanical segregation between colors than 4e ever dreamed of being with their power sources. You don't have to settle for "Divine power source character classes have more Radiant damage available" or something stupid like that - Blue can be literally the only source of Psychic damage in the whole game. Specific conditions can and should be restricted to just two colors. If something gets turned to stone, it was definitely petrified by a Green or Black creature.

What that gives you is a class that defines two ability lists you can choose from: your Class' "Colorless" list, and your Class' list for the color you personally are. And because it is defining which lists you can select from, it can give you a resource management system that interacts with the abilities off that list.

So Knights function off of investing mana into Stances, Wards, and their Strike each turn. It's like a multipower in Champions. And their "Colorless" list is composed of all the crap that all the Knights can do: combat maneuvers, stances of first striking, and so on. It also includes various passive abilities like heavy armor use. And each of the colored lists has Wards, Stances, and Strikes that are attuned to the color and only available for Knights of that color. So Green Knights can get a Regeneration Ward that lets them heal each turn by assigning mana to it, while White Knights can get a Lay on Hands strike that heals the target or blasts Zombies and Spirits. But Red Knights don't get Healing powers at all.

-Username17

[...You Lost Me]

So this discussion makes me geek out every time I read it, but Rob's post of special barbarian attacks made me think of something: What RNG, what class bonuses, and what kind of action mechanic would be most fitting to magic? The whole thing feels like I could be plunked into a d20 system with no problem, but the regularity with which bears will defeat merfolk in a 1v1 battle seems not to fit with the potential swinginess of a d20.

[Prak]

If you go with multicolour cards, there are blue druids, too, Frank, they're just also one of the other colours.

Going with Frank's point that a turn is basically an entire adventure, it might make sense to kind of meet in the middle as far as abilities go. Characters get to pick from master lists, but only between adventures, or if they gain mana during an adventure. So basically every character is a prep-caster in how they play.

[John Magnum]

Wait, so that means that you're proposing writing up fully 13x6 = 78 powers lists? How tractable is that?

[Prak]

Well, at least everyone having a suite of powers, and they get to choose what they take when they go on an adventure. I imagine there'd be a good bit of overlap, pinging is iconic of both archers and wizards, for example.

I'd also go through and write up RPG abilities flavoured after the MtG keywords.

[Username17]

Wait, so that means that you're proposing writing up fully 13x6 = 78 powers lists? How tractable is that?

The 4e PHB class section uses the word "Daily" over four hundred and eighty times and the word "Encounter" over five hundred and thirty. There are a fair number of uses of those words that don't correspond to new powers, but I also am not including the powers found in the races, feats, or magic items sections. And those are incredibly space inefficient powers. 12 powers per list wouldn't be at all hard, and to be honest you don't need nearly that many. You can put most of the class powers on the Colorless list, and only throw out a handful of colored powers for each class and go far.

Also, you can have a lot of redundancy. While the Warrior and the Soldier will interact with their resources in a different way and therefore need different basic attack powers, they can still have whatever their variant of Mighty Charge be mostly copypasta. Indeed, you can have "zero mana" basic attacks and passive abilities be actually copypasta or even relegated to a central list somewhere. I mean, there's no reason for the Knight and the Soldier to have different writeups for Heavy Armor Proficiency, for example.

Making 13 classes that all have their own resource systems and have separate power lists for each of five color options sounds like a lot of work. But it's surprisingly not that hard once you realize how much of it is procedurally generated. Green classes get access to passive healing and healing over time, White classes get access to action heals, Black classes get access to Undead heals and vampiric heals, Red classes do not get these things. Shamans get a blast beam, and it does Radiant Damage for White, Psychic Damage for Blue, and Fire Damage for Red. And so on.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

Wait, so that means that you're proposing writing up fully 13x6 = 78 powers lists? How tractable is that?

Yeah, this was my other bugbear with having every class able to be every colour (apart from whether Blue-White Orc Druids are something that should exist, but I'll put that aside for now).

12 powers per list wouldn't be at all hard, and to be honest you don't need nearly that many. You can put most of the class powers on the Colorless list, and only throw out a handful of colored powers for each class and go far.

So assuming, say, 10 levels of advancement. At each level up you'd only have the choice of one, maybe two colour specific abilities? I guess if the coloured powers were things that radically changed the way the class played you wouldn't need that many, but still. If there are 4 colourless powers and one of each colour at each level for each class, you need to write 13 x 9 x 10 = 1,170 powers. That's a fuck-tonne however you slice it. And honestly, that only gives any given character a choice of 5 abilities at level up, which doesn't give much room for GTFO counters and niche utility powers. Some resource schemes want a lot more than that.

[Username17]

So assuming, say, 10 levels of advancement. At each level up you'd only have the choice of one, maybe two colour specific abilities? I guess if the coloured powers were things that radically changed the way the class played you wouldn't need that many, but still. If there are 4 colourless powers and one of each colour at each level for each class, you need to write 13 x 9 x 10 = 1,170 powers. That's a fuck-tonne however you slice it. And honestly, that only gives any given character a choice of 5 abilities at level up, which doesn't give much room for GTFO counters and niche utility powers. Some resource schemes want a lot more than that.

Different ability lists will interact with powers in different ways. The guys who get to save mana from turn to turn can actually just select higher and lower level abilities. However, I think your 1200 powers is conservative. The game would probably want more like 2 or 3 thousand. That sounds like a lot, and it is. But remember:

• The 3.5 Player's Handbook contains 605 spells. If you made them three times as space/wordcount efficient (which is trivial to do), the same page space would get you to over eighteen hundred powers.
• The 4e Player's Handbook had 8 classes, and each one got a deck of 100 power cards to go with them. That's 800 grossly space inefficient powers for a woefully incomplete game.
• Actual Magic the Gathering has over twelve thousand distinct non-land, non-parody cards.
• A complete 4e class can be written in a day. Once you nail down your guidelines for power structures and effects, the actual procedural generation of ninety-nine powers only takes about twelve hours. As evidenced by the fact that I actually fucking did that with the Bane Guard and his ninety nine powers.

Three thousand powers sounds like a lot, but it's really just a month of writing. And it can still only hope to give shoutouts to a quarter of the source material. Figuring out the power frameworks and the meanings of colors and the interaction between tactical choices is way more work.

-Username17

[Prak]

So, at the moment, this is where creating character abilities based on magic keywords stands. Most keyword abilities screw around with creature power and toughness, so most of these raise attack roll bonus, AC, give temp hp, or some combination there of.

Magic the Gathering, the RPG Special Abilities
Generally numbers from cards which increase power or toughness are translated into +2 rpg bonus for every +1 ccg bonus. Numbers which refer to creatures remain unchanged. Numbers which refer specifically to damage are translated into the rpg at a 1:3 (card number to rpg number) rate.

• Absorb (X/[damage type]): as D&D Damage Reduction.
  Ex.- Lymph Sliver has Absorb 3/-. When it is attacked, it ignores the first three points of damage from the attack.
• Affinity:
• Amplify (X): For each creature within 30’ which is the same creature type, the creature with amplify receives a circumstance bonus equal to (X) to its AC and attack and damage rolls.
  Ex.- Kilnmouth Dragon (Amplify 6) is accompanied by four other dragons, all within 30’ of it, and so receives a +24 bonus to its AC and attack and damage rolls.
• Annihilator (X): When an encounter begins, the (X) closest opponents to the creature with annihilator must make a fortitude save (DC=10+1/2 Annihilator creature’s HD+its Cha mod) or die. This is a death effect.
  Ex.- When an encounter with Hand of Emrakul (Annihilator 1) begins, the opponent closest to Hand of Emrakul must make a DC 19 save or die instantly.
• Battle Cry: A creature with Battle Cry may, as a full round action, give forth a thunderous shout of rage and defiance which grants all allies within earshot a +(1/3 its Character Level) morale bonus to attack rolls, saves against fear and 1d8+its character level temporary hit points until the end of the encounter, or for thirty seconds outside of combat.
  Ex.-Accorder Paladin shouts his battle cry. He takes no further actions that turn, and for the duration of combat, or the next thirty seconds, his allies receive a +1 moral bonus to attack rolls and saves vrs fear, as well as 1d8+2 temporary hp.
• Bloodthirst (X): When an opponent is at less than full hit points, a creature with Bloodthirst gains a morale bonus on attack rolls equal to (X).
  Ex.- Battering Wurm (Bloodthirst 2) gains a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls when it’s opponent is at less than full hit points.
• Bushido (X): A creature with Bushido may, as a full round action, declare a challenge against a single opponent. If any opponent other than the challenged one then attacks the creature with bushido before it attacks its target, the creature with bushido gains a +(x) insight bonus to attack rolls and AC until the targeted opponent is no longer active in the encounter—whether due to being unconscious, dead, or retreated farther than the creature with bushido could travel in a single round, ie, more than four times the creature with bushido’s move speed. Multiple instances of this ability stack.
  Ex.- Battle-Mad Ronin (Bushido 4) declares his intention to slay Kiku, Night’s Flower. Before his next turn comes around, he is attacked by Nezumi Cutthroat. Battle-Mad Ronin gains a +4 insight bonus to his attack rolls and ac until Kiku has been slain, knocked out, or has fled more than 120’ from the ronin. If the ronin were subject to Sensei Golden Tail’s tap effect, it would gain Bushido 2, effectively raising its Bushido ability to 6, and would gain +6 to attacks rolls and AC until Kiku left the encounter.
• Deathtouch: At the end of combat, any opponent damaged by you must make a Fort save (DC= 10+your con mod+1/2 your hd). Any opponent which fails dies. Out of combat, creatures damaged by you must make this save after 30 seconds (ie, five rounds). This is a death effect.
  Ex.- Acidic Slime hits White Knight for 2 damage, and is subsequently slain by the knight on his turn. The knight must then make a fortitude save or die.
• Defender: You cannot use your actions on your turn to attack or cast offensive spells (exceptions exist). If a creature attacks you, you may attack it, and only it, on your turn, until it leaves your reach. You can move to intercept attackers, but you cannot pursue retreating opponents.
  Ex.- Hired torturer can only move and tap/deplete on its turn. When a Fyndhorn Elf attacks it, it may attack the elf until the elf is dead, or the elf retreats. The torturer cannot pursue the retreating elf, but it can move to intercept the elf as the elf moves to attack one of the torturer’s allies.
• Devour (X): A creature with Devour may, as a full round action, swallow whole and kill adjacent non-hostile creatures one or more size categories smaller than it, if it does so, it gains a number of “virtual” HD equal to X times the number of creatures devoured. Virtual HD cause the creature to grow in size, but do not confer the usual benefits of gaining HD. A creature with Devour may swallow up to two creatures one size smaller than it in one turn. Each size smaller than that doubles the number of creatures the creature with devour may consume, as shown below, to a maximum of 8. Subsequent uses of devour stack.

  # size categories smaller than Creature with Devour	# creatures that can be devoured
  1	2
  2	4
  3+	8

  
  Ex.- Caldera Hellion (Devour 1, Huge size) spends its first turn consuming four humans, and gains four virtual HD, growing to Gargantuan size, gaining +8 strength, +4 con and Natural Armour, and increasing its size penalty on AC and Attack by two.
• Evolve: When encountering a creature with hostile intent, if the hostile creature has a higher Attack modifier (with any attack) or AC than the creature with Evolve, the creature with evolve gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Attack and AC. The bonus from evolve raises each time the creature “evolves” but does not stack with other enhancement bonuses.
  Ex.- Crocanura (Medium 3HD Magical Beast) is attacked by a Grizzly Bear (Large 8HD Animal). The crocanura has a claw attack bonus of +6 and an AC of 15. The grizzly bear has a +11 attack bonus for its claws and an AC of 15. The crocanura evolves, gaining a +2 enhancement bonus on attacks and AC. If a second grizzly bear were to join the combat, the crocanura would evolve again (its claw attack bonus is still smaller than the grizzly bears’), and the enhancement bonus grows to +4.
• Exalted: (Whenever a creature attacks alone, it gets +1/+1 for each creature with Exalted controlled by its controller)
• Extort: Whenever the creature casts a spell, it may channel an additional white or black mana, if it does so, it gains 1d4 temporary hp.
• First Strike: In any given round, you may forego your normal attack, and instead you are entitled to an attack of opportunity whenever you are attacked that round. Your attack of opportunity is resolved before the attack which triggered it. You may make as many first strikes in a round as you may make attacks of opportunity. The choice should be made at the beginning of each round, but if the creature has not acted yet, it may decide upon being attacked to use its first strike ability and forfeit its normal attack later in the round.
  Ex.- Abattoir Ghoul decides at the beginning of the round to not use its normal attack. When Raging Goblin attacks it, the ghoul makes an attack of opportunity which resolves before the goblin’s. If enough damage is dealt to kill the goblin, the ghoul does not receive any damage the goblin’s attack would normally deal. [/i]
  • Double Strike: As First Strike (see below), but you do not need to forego your normal attack each round to use your first strike ability.
    Ex.- Boros Swiftblade may attack each round on its normal initiative count. When Raging Goblin attacks it, it is given an attack of opportunity against the goblin which resolves before the goblin’s attack, even if Boros Swiftblade has already attacked that round.
• Flanking: A creature with flanking can easily get around its opponent’s defenses and avoid its attacks. When a creature with flanking attacks a creature without flanking, the creature without flanking takes a -2 competence penalty to its AC and attack rolls. Multiple instances of this ability stack.
  Ex.- A Benalish Cavalry is fighting a Kyscu Drake. The drake suffers a -2 competence penalty to AC and attack rolls against the cavalry. If the cavalry were subject to Jabari’s Banner, it would gain a second iteration of flanking, and the drake would take -4 to its AC and attack rolls. If the banner were instead used on the drake, the drake would gain flanking, and not take a penalty to AC or attack rolls when fighting the cavalry.
• Frenzy (X): When a creature with Frenzy attacks, it gains a bonus to damage rolls equal to X, before multipliers, if the target of its attack cannot properly defend itself, ie, if it is helpless. Multiple instances of this ability stack.
  Ex.- A Frenzy Sliver (Frenzy 3) attacks a bound brownie. The sliver’s attack deals an extra 3 point of damage to the brownie. If a second frenzy sliver joined the first, they would each have two instances of Frenzy 3 (slivers give all slivers their innate abilities), and if either attacked the helpless brownie, they would deal 6 more damage, before multipliers.
• Haste: You are able to act in surprise rounds, as if you were not surprised. If you are part of the party surprising it’s opponents, you may act first in initiative count, before taking your normal initiative slot in subsequent rounds.
  Ex.- Raging Goblin is surprised by a party of Llanowar elves. The goblin rolls initiative and acts as if it were not surprised. Later, the goblin is joined by his King, and they ambush a pair of Grizzly Bears. The goblins roll initiative, but in the surprise round, the Raging Goblin has first initiative. In future rounds of the combat, the Raging Goblin acts on its rolled initiative in subsequent rounds.
• Indestructible: as D&D Regeneration, save that you will typically not have a weakness to a certain material. Creatures with Indestructible heal 5 subdual damage each round.
  Ex.- Sapling of Colfenor takes only subdual damage when it is attacked. Each round, on its initiative, it heals five damage. When its subdual damage matches its hit points, it is rendered unconscious, but continues to heal subdual damage every six seconds (or 50 points of subdual damage in a minute).
• Infect: Creatures with Infect bestow negative levels with their innate attacks, rather than damage.
  Ex.- Black Cleave Goblin has claw attacks. When it successfully strikes a foe, it deals no damage, and instead bestows one negative level.
• Intimidate: as D&D Frightful Presence, except that it is effective regardless of hit points and levels, and colourless creatures and creatures which share a colour with you automatically pass their save.
  Ex.- Bellowing Tanglewurm gives forth a frightful roar, and all creatures which can hear it must make will save or be frightened. Any green or colourless creatures which hear it need make no save.
• Landwalk: This ability is always written as [Terrain]walk. When in the terrain in question, your AC is considered (1/3 Character Lever) points higher, and you receive a +(character level) circumstance modifier on your hide and move silently checks.
  Ex.- While Lord of Atlantis is in aquatic terrain, it gains a circumstance bonus to AC of 1 and a +2 circumstance bonus to hide and move silently checks.
• Lifelink: Whenever you deal damage, you gain 5 temporary hit points.
  Ex.- Ajani’s Sunstriker attacks a Bellowing Tanglewurm, gaining 5 temporary hit points, regardless of how much damage it dealt, so long as it was a single point or more.
• Protection: Protection is always written as “Protection from [source].” The creature is immune to the stated source. If the source is a creature, the immunity applies to the creature’s natural attacks and special abilities. In the case of spell-like abilities, the creature is immune if the spell-like is of a colour the creature has protection from, or if the creature has protection from the user’s creature type, subtype or class.
  Ex.- Abbey Gargoyles are immune to all red spells and the natural attacks and special abilities of red creatures, as well as spell like abilities which mimic red spells or originate from red creatures. Angelic Curator is immune to effects originating from artifacts. Baneslayer Angel cannot be damaged by the natural attacks or special abilities of demons or dragons. Beloved Chaplain is immune to the natural attacks and special abilities of all creatures.
• Regenerate: When you would be killed, you are instead rendered fatigued and unconscious and the damage which would have killed you is instead nullified. You remain unconscious for the rest of the encounter, or for thirty seconds (five rounds) outside of combat. You cannot be directly attacked for the remainder of the encounter, but you are still subject to non-attack effects, such as area of effect spells. In essence, your AC cannot be overcome, but effects which do not require an attack roll can harm you.
  Ex.- Albino Troll channels one its two green mana and activates its regeneration ability. When it is slain later in an encounter with an Abyssal Persecutor, it is rendered unconscious, does not take the death blow damage, and is not subject to actions or effects requiring an attack roll. When the persecutor’s red mage ally casts Pyroclasm, the troll dies if it fails its save against the spell.
• Shroud: as D&D Spell Resistance, save that the DC to overcome your SR is equal to 10+1/2 your Hit Die+your charisma modifier.
  Ex.- To affect Argothian Enchantress with a spell, a caster must roll a caster level check vrs. DC 15.
  • Hexproof: You may lower your spell resistance and raise it again as non-actions.
    Ex.- Ascended Lawmage can be affected by spells he wishes to receive without spending an action to lower his shroud and be left vulnerable for a round. Friendly spellcasters effectively need not make caster level checks to cast beneficial spells upon him.
• Trample: If you deal enough damage to drop an opponent, you may carry the attack through into an adjacent target which has AC no higher than your initial attack roll and deal the damage in excess of the first opponent’s hp to the second target.
  Ex.- Abyssal Persecutor is attacked by a horde of four Raging Goblins. It attacks one for 8 damage, killing the 2 hp creature. The persecutor’s sword slices through the first goblin and into the next for six points of damage, dropping it and carrying through to the next raging goblin for four points of damage, dropping it, and hitting the last goblin for 2 points of damage and killing it, with no damage left over.
• Vigilance: You may use abilities which require a standard action on your turn after making a single attack. In essence, single attacks are not considered to require an action from you for the purposes of abilities which require a standard action.
  Ex.- Ardent Militia makes a single attack against a Raging Gobin. It may then make a double movement to approach a new target.

Conditions

• Detained: A detained creature cannot take any actions, and is effectively paralyzed but cannot even take even purely mental actions.

Subtypes

• Changeling: A creature with the Changeling subtype is considered to be all creature types and subtypes for the purposes of magic items, spell effects, feat and class prerequisites, etc. They do not gain the traits of creature types or subtypes such as Undead immunity to subdual or Angel aura of menace. If an effect or similar says it can affect one type or subtype, but not another, then it can affect a changeling.
  Ex.- Skeletal Changeling receives the morale bonus on attacks and AC which Elven champion gives all allies with the (Elf) subtype. It must save against Disruption weapons. It can be given the Lycanthrope template, even though it is treated as being non-humanoid, because it is also treated as being humanoid. It is affected by Dominate Person and Dominate Animal, and detects as both an Evil and Good outsider, as well as an animal and a plant. It receives a negative level while wielding any anarchic, axiomatic, holy or unholy weapon, and takes bonus damage when struck by any of them, as they are counted as being the “wrong” alignment for each part of the effect of each enchantment.

----------------------------------------

I'm well aware that I'm basically throwing numbers at a wall in most places, but it's at least a starting point. Direct translation is screwy.

[Username17]

Direct translation is screwy.

So much so that you are not going to want to do one. The goal is not to find an equation that converts magic cards into RPG elements, because no such equation exists. The goal is to create new mechanics which have a "similar feel" to what the cards imply would be going on if they were elements in a role playing game.

Let's consider First Strike for a bit. If things operate on a D&D wavelength (that is, non-simultaneous resolution of attacks), then somebody gets something game mechanically equivalent to First Strike every turn just by winning initiative. So the mechanics really aren't going to port directly into the game. So let's consider what creatures having First Strike is supposed to represent.

The Abattoir Ghoul or Ash Zealot have First Strike because they are really good with a knife or mace. Essentially, First Strike simply implies that they have a large Initiative bonus. The Advance Scout has and grants First Strike because he scouts out enemy positions and then allows his team to set up an ambush. Essentially, First Strike in this instance indicates that he is good at the Stealth/Perception minigame (you get similar conclusions looking at cards like Ambush). The Akki Coalflinger grants First Strike because he throws bombs at defensive positions, flushing enemies out of cover or providing shock and awe for his allies to storm the compound. The various Knights and Pikemen have First Strike because they are armed with lances and have reach. The various Archers have First Strike because they have ranged weapons and/or sneakiness. And of course, there are various Wizards who have First Strike because they are magic, and fuck you.

So there are going to be a lot of ways for creatures to have First Strike. It would not be in any way appropriate to simply grab all the creatures who have First Strike and give them the same abilities in the RPG. You have to look at them and determine what the creature's First Strike is supposed to "feel like" when you go to the higher level of granularity of the RPG.

-Username17

[Username17]

So I've been thinking a bit about dependent and independent lists. Obviously, we're talking about dependent lists, because the abilities available to a Red Knight are not the same as the abilities available to a White Knight or to a Red Shaman. And that of course means writing a metric ass tonne of powers, as was noted earlier.

But it also means that you have a metric ass tonne of distinct character types. And that means that if you state your emphasis properly, you can present that as a metric ass tonne of content. No one complains that 4e only launched with 4 "roles", just as no one complains that 2nd edition AD&D launched with 4 "base classes". There is more than a little complaining about how 4e had only "8 classes" on release, but not that it only had 4 roles or that it only had 3 power sources.

So you don't have to release all the color lists for all the classes. You don't even have to release all 13 classes. You can jolly well call the card subtypes "base classes", then have only four or five of them on release, and call the color versions the actual "classes". So "Knight" is a "Base Class" in the 2nd edition AD&D sense of the term, and your actual class is "Paladin" if you are White and "Dragoon" if you are Red.

So you release like 20 to 25 classes in the base book, and leave the other base classes for later releases. And then you can drop ~100k words on ability lists for the classes you have, and have a lot of options for each one at each level.

-Username17

[fectin]

Aside from the generic classes vs point buy discussion, is there a reason this is tilting towards classes? A game which comes with granular power resources by default seems tailor-made for point buy. That seems doubly true when you're already talking about doing point buy within a class system.

You don't even have to hand out XP as such; just handwave some bullshit about how making your mark on a place b(y clearing a cave or whatever) gives you an ongoing connection to the land, which is like what planeswalkers do. That connection gives you mana to spend on the point-buy screen.

You can even do a general-rule sort of conversion, so one MtG mana equals 20 MRPG mana, and make it easy to include MTG artifacts as plot points.

[Emerald]

Aside from the generic classes vs point buy discussion, is there a reason this is tilting towards classes?

Probably because there are already race/species and class keywords in M:tG with fairly defined effects, each color has defined things it does and doesn't do, and mono- and dual-color cards are much more common than four- and five-color cards, so it makes sense that character generation would be closer to a class-based "pick a race, pick one or two classes, pick one or two colors, go" setup where each keyword is its own discrete chunk than a point-based "invest a few points in Red, a few more in Blue, a couple in Vampire, a few in Sorceries, and a point in Instants" setup where it's easy to blur the lines.

[Almaz]

If I open up a Magic: the Gathering RPG and do not pick a color on chargen, effectively choosing a class (even if not in the D&D sense), then I look confusedly at the text and put it down. I will simply have found yet another fantasy heartbreaker which has refused to throw its actual pitch - knuckleballing low rather than actually committing to a clear and decisive vision that would set it apart from other fantasy RPGs in even the slightest way to make it interesting.

This does not mean my color has to stay the same, or that you can't pick two colors (maybe that's a high level option - preferably only high, though, since it's rare), but it has to be a selection. I have to see Color on the character sheet.

[RadiantPhoenix]

In Magic, there are three ways to pick two colors.

One ("Gold") requires you to reach two mana, and gives you access to the union of the abilities available to each color.


The other ("Hybrid") has no level minimum, but limits you to the intersection of the abilities available to each color.


You can also be mono-color and get abilities from another color that require an external thing of that color.

[Red_Rob]

You can jolly well call the card subtypes "base classes", then have only four or five of them on release, and call the color versions the actual "classes". So "Knight" is a "Base Class" in the 2nd edition AD&D sense of the term, and your actual class is "Paladin" if you are White and "Dragoon" if you are Red.

I've been mulling it over and I was starting to think that this is the answer to the problem I was having with the "any class, any colour" philosophy. Whilst you might be a Wizard in the abstract, it is more accurate to say that if you are a Black wizard you might be a Necromancer or a Warlock, whereas a White wizard is going to be a Mystic or Auramancer. Plus, focussing on the core colour/class combinations at first gives players a grounding in what to expect before you bust out the crazy.

So, looking at things from an RPG standpoint I came up with these mechanical and thematic hooks for each colour:

Red

Red mana comes from the Mountains and the fiery heart of the world itself. Red magic is filled with fire, frenzy, and storms of rock and lava. Its creatures are warlike and dangerous, ranging from mighty dragons to hordes of rampaging goblins. Mages who master red magic have no patience for talk or subtlety. They act quickly and recklessly. Red mages can channel their wild emotions to crush the ground you walk on or to wield flame like a living weapon.

Red is based around impulse, fury and destroying things. It finds these ends in the complementary pillars of Impulse and Chaos. Impulse, to Red, means emotional action. By acting (doing) as one's heart desires, one can only find happiness with the experience one has to show for it. With Chaos - random action - Red creates the freedom for anyone to express his or her emotions.

It rules over the elements of earth and fire, along with anything else that may become mountain-related.

Red places a great deal of emphasis on combat, believing that at its core, life is a meritocracy; the strong will rise and the weak should either fall or get out of the way.

Mechanics	Examples
Elemental damage	Prodigal Pyromancer, Resounding Thunder
Damage over an area	Inferno, Pyroclasm
Disintegration effects	Disintegrate, Annihilating Fire
Battlefield Control	Wall of Stone, Roiling Terrain
Confusion effects	Confusion in the Ranks, Wrack with Madness
Rage effects	Fit of Rage, Psychotic Fury
Object destruction	Shattering Pulse, Demolish
Intimidation effects	Threaten, Intimidator Initiate
Physical Stat Increases	Giant Strength, Volcanic Strength
Damage at long range	Rift Bolt, Lightning Bolt
Haste effects	Burst of Speed, Unnatural Speed
Metamagic-Twin	Fork, Pyromancer Ascension
Short term resource boosts	Seething Song, Pyretic Ritual
Chaotic or randomised effects	Chaosphere, Chaos Harlequin
Summoning Elementals	Inferno Elemental, Rockslide Elemental

Blue

Islands provide blue mana, the color of the deep sea and the endless sky. The strength of blue magic lies in trickery and manipulation. Blue mages work behind the scenes, scheming and stealing secrets, controlling their environments completely before making a move. Blue spells and abilities focus on "borrowing" opponents' cards and drawing the right card at the right time. With the power of blue, call wizards and weird beasts of the air and oceans to serve you.

Blue is characterized by the desire to know the world's secrets and to make those possibilities real. The belief that dream can be reality - to which Blue holds fast - is belief in tabula rasa, the blank slate.

It is with knowledge that Blue will unlock great possibilities, and changes itself for the better. With all knowledge - omniscience - Blue can make itself perfect.

Recurring themes in Blue are illusion over reality (nurture over nature), thought over action (reason over passion), and the future over the past or present.

Blue, as the color of intelligence, takes great pride in never running out of options.

Mechanics	Examples
Illusions	Gossamer Phantasm, Illusions of Grandeur
Sleep effects	Thalakos Dreamsower, Breath of Dreams
Counterspells	Flash Counter, Dissipate
Slow effects	Slow Motion, Temporal Distortion
Stealth	Neurok Invisimancer, Cloak of Mists
Mobility	Wind Dancer, Teleport
Debuffs	Dizzy Spell, Turn to Frog
Cloning effects	Mask of the Mimic, Clone
Time Manipulation	Time Warp, Stasis
Battlefield Control	Fog Bank, Floodbringer
Divination	Divination, Foresee
Domination	Mind Control, Overtaker
Controlling Water	Hydrosurge, Part Water
Controlling Wind	Favourable Winds, Wall of Air

Green

Forests provide green mana, the color of the life and nature. Green spells and abilities focus on making its creatures larger in order to beat their opponent into the ground, destroying "unnatural" artifacts and enchantments, or increasing mana production. With the power of green mana you can call powerful beasts to maul your enemies to a pulp.

Green magic is about growth, life, and brute force. When a green mage fights, massive creatures crash through the undergrowth, animals enlarge to gargantuan size, and wounds close before blood spills onto the ground.

Strength, ferocity, and life: These are the values that sustain the green mage.

Green mages understand that the world obeys the law of the jungle—everything is either predator or prey. Green mages do what they can to accelerate and protect nature: jungles expand, artifacts crumble, and creatures regenerate themselves. For green mages, even the plants become lethal weapons. At their best, green mages are instinctual and adaptive. At their worst, they are savage, unthinking, and predatory.

Green is the color most in tune with nature. Whereas the other colors seek to modify the world around them, green believes that the best course of action is to simply allow nature to take its course.

One of green's more negative outlooks is its hatred of the artificial. It dislikes the trappings of civilization, believing that the natural laws are the only laws that should be obeyed. It has a particular dislike of magical creations, seeing them as distortions of the real.

Mechanics	Examples
Summoning Plants/Animals	Selesnya Evangel, Master of the Wild Hunt
Growth Effects	Giant Growth, Tower Above
Physical Stat increases	Seal of Strength, Sudden Strength
Rage Effects	Primal Frenzy, Primal Rage
Petrification effects	Sylvan Basilisk, Cockatrice
Poison	Venomous Breath, Serpent's Gift
Healing	Nourish, Wellwisher
Protection from Spells	Sheltering Word, Vines of Vastwood
Battlefield Control	Entangling Vines, Wall of Brambles
Dispelling	Tranquility, Primeval Light
Magic Item Negation	Krosan Grip, Sundering Vitae
Reincarnation	Reinarnation, Wildwood Rebirth
Divination	Gilt Leaf Seer, Oracle of Mul Daya
Long term resource boosts	Upwelling, Druid of the Anima
Controlling Plants	Living Terrain, Crushing vines

White

White is the color of order, light, and healing. White creatures lay down the law and enforce it. Many white cards represent knights, castles and soldiers. Others represent creatures that live on the plains. Angels are powerful protectors in the sky, and clerics protect the weak and injured. It is not necessarily good, though it is portayed to be.

White puts value in the group, the community, and its civilization as a whole. White's ultimate goal is peace, harmony, and perfection — a world where everyone gets along and no one seeks to disturb the bonds of unity that White had worked so long to forge. To govern and protect its community, White makes use of and puts value in a number of broad concepts; morality (ethics, religion), order (law, discipline), uniformity (conformity), and structure (government, planning).

In White's belief, there is very little grey area in morality (as morality is defined, clarified, and guided by rules of ethics) and thus very little room for straying from the path.

The phrase, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", certainly applies to the White way of living. This again implies that any dissident will be dealt with swiftly, so that no opposition can form within the White society

White doesn't always stand for "Good", but it invariably stands for "Good" in its own mind. For the sake of a real life example, however, fascism is very White in essence, and many would argue that fascism is quite evil.

Mechanics	Examples
Charm effects	Pacifism, Brainwash
Healing	Life Burst, Samite Healer
Defensive Buffs	Armor of Faith, Concave's Blessing
Protection effects	Death Ward, Faith's Shield
Morale Boosts	Morale, Rally the Peasants
Dispelling	Demystify, Echoing Calm
Resurrection	Breath of Life, Proclamation of Rebirth
Group buffs	Glorious Anthem, Blessed Orator
Imprisoning effects	Cage of Hands, Oblivion Ring
Flight	Angelic Destiny, Serra's Embrace
Light effects	Devouring Light, Archangel's Light
Magic Item Negation	Divine Offering, Disenchant
Symmetrical effects	Akroma's Vengeance, Rule of Law
Summoning Angels/Spirits	Entreat the Angels, Spectral Procession
Save or Die vs attackers	Chastise, Condemn
Self Sacrifice	Children of Korlis, Dedicated Martyr

Black

Black mana comes from swamps, where things fester and rot. Death, disease, selfishness, power at any cost - these are the twisted values of the darkness. Black magic is powerful and easy to wield, but it comes with a high price. Its spells and abilities can warp the mind, poison the land, and turn creatures into nothing. Dark minions, undead creatures, and unspeakable horrors are native to the swamp, and they're as self-serving and treacherous as the mages who commanded them. It is not evil, though it is often portrayed to be.

Black is a fairly simple color to understand. It focuses on winning at all costs.

Black looks on the world and sees just a plain reality: Power controls. Power says who rules, and who dies. And whether the weak can see it or not, they are no more than slaves for the powerful.

Black simply must discard all obligations but to acquire power for itself. It can be no less than the one supreme being who is subordinate to no other, the possessor of all power in the universe - it must become omnipotent.

Black represents concern for the self above anyone else.

Mechanics	Examples
Death effects	Sudden Death, Touch of Death
Animating Undead	Zombify, Raise Dead
Fear effects	Face of Fear, Dread
Insanity effects	Wrench Mind, Brink of Madness
Buffs with downsides	Crown of Suspicion, Twisted Experiment
Debuffs	Weakness, Mire Blight
Divination	Skeletal Scrying, Casting of bones
Battlefield Control	Hypnotic Cloud, Wall of Shadows
Poison	Pit Scorpion, Pooling Venom
Disease effects	Typhoid Rats, Necrotic PLague
Darkness effects	Cover of Darkness, Blanket of Night
Demon Summoning	Demonic Rising, Skirsdag High Priest
Vampiric Healing	Absorb Vis, Bloodrite Invoker
hp as a resource	Altar's Reap, Strands of Night
Deals with the Devil	Contract from Below, Demonic Tutor

[CatharzGodfoot]

In Magic, there are three ways to pick two colors.

One ("Gold") requires you to reach two mana, and gives you access to the union of the abilities available to each color.

The other ("Hybrid") has no level minimum, but limits you to the intersection of the abilities available to each color.

You can also be mono-color and get abilities from another color that require an external thing of that color.

Your Hybrid option is a non-starter. Having access to the intersection of two ability sets is strictly worse than getting complete access to one of the sets.

---

How much extra annoyance would it be to 'draw' mana each turn? Say you're a Black/White Human Cleric. On each turn, you draw a mana card. Heads, you have black mana; tails, you get white. Your mana deck can be stacked however you like. You can play the mana card to use one of your abilities.

If you're mono-color, you always have access to all of your powers. If you're dual-color, you always have access to all of your colorless abilities, but only one of the colors at a time.

This becomes more interesting if abilities can have differing mana costs and mana pools increase. On a given round, A Black/White 2 Human Cleric can draw 1 black and 1 white mana, 2 black mana, or 2 white mana (the probabilities depend on how they stack their deck). This Cleric is much less likely than a single-color character to be able to use a 2 mana black or white power, unless the cleric weighs their mana pool towards one of the two colors.

Clearly, this has all kinds of problems with characters that pre-buff or do other things that sidestep round-by-round probabilities. But despite that and the time cost, I think it has merit for giving a more Magic-like feeling to the RPG.

[RadiantPhoenix]

How much extra annoyance would it be to 'draw' mana each turn?

What is the point of this?