Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Leress]

What level is this adventure?

It's a 5th level adventure.

[K]

What level is this adventure?

It's a 5th level adventure.

Ballz. So you basically have the players doing everything they can to keep the gold in the city, and the DM doing everything in his power to prevent it?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Roy, a wand of major image isn't trash: you still need to interact with the illusion to even get a save.

[Username17]

Several of those items are very good. A +3 Greatsword sells for nine thousand gold, and if you're less than 12th level it is worth way more than that to the party. Not vendor trash. A +4 Steel Shield is ideal equipment for any divine caster who is not a Druid, and a fair number of other characters as well. It sells for 8000 gold, and even at 14th level it would be replaced by a Pearl of Power III - and that sells for 9000 gold. That isn't vendor trash either.

A bunch of those other items would be useful for a bit before being sold. I mean, a +4 Shocking Energy Mace is lame, but only for its cost. It's still probably better than any item you own. The Rogue would have some god fun with it before you turned it in to the museum for your reward. But yeah, of those sticks, only the Wand of Major Image is good, and that's because it makes a spell that essentially doesn't allow saves. The Staff of Frost can do good work making walls of ice, but it costs way too much for that to be a good use of your time - you're better off vendoring it and buying a ring of blink.

-Username17

[Roy]

Several of those items are very good. A +3 Greatsword sells for nine thousand gold, and if you're less than 12th level it is worth way more than that to the party. Not vendor trash. A +4 Steel Shield is ideal equipment for any divine caster who is not a Druid, and a fair number of other characters as well. It sells for 8000 gold, and even at 14th level it would be replaced by a Pearl of Power III - and that sells for 9000 gold. That isn't vendor trash either.

I've already covered vendor trash. And we're talking major items here.

Let's see... what's the lowest level you can even get a major item?

*checks*

1% chance at level 10. 2% chance at 11, 3% chance at 12. 5% chance at 13, 8% chance at 14. 10% chance at 15-16. 17% chance at 17, 20% chance at 18, 30% chance at 19, and 35% chance of 1d3 at 20.

And you don't want a +3 Greatsword. You want a +1 Holy Greatsword, or some other such special properties for damage that always or almost always apply thing. Greater Magic Weapon and all.

The shield has to be held, which means Animated + Magic Vestment > it.

A bunch of those other items would be useful for a bit before being sold. I mean, a +4 Shocking Energy Mace is lame, but only for its cost. It's still probably better than any item you own. The Rogue would have some god fun with it before you turned it in to the museum for your reward. But yeah, of those sticks, only the Wand of Major Image is good, and that's because it makes a spell that essentially doesn't allow saves. The Staff of Frost can do good work making walls of ice, but it costs way too much for that to be a good use of your time - you're better off vendoring it and buying a ring of blink.

-Username17

1: You have GMW, so if it has a + higher than 1 it's wasting slots. That alone disqualifies every single major item, as they make it minimum +3, under the erroneous assumption you give a damn about such things.
2: Maces are the anti undead weapon. There is no reason to ever use one against anything else. What does Brilliant Energy do again? Exactly.
3: Lol, Shocking Burst on a 20/x2 weapon. That property sucks enough barrels of cocks when it's on a high crit weapon.

[Roy]

For the hell of it, 10 more. Not bothering to list the exact rolls this time, only the results.

Staff of the Woodlands, +3 Greataxe, Staff of Fire, Wand of Ice Storm, Tome of Quickness of Action +3, Metamagic Rod of Enlarge, Arcane Scroll of Mass Cure Light Wounds, Baleful Polymorph, and Dimensional Lock, +3 Anarchic Longsword, Scroll of Geas, and a +3 Shocking Burst Shingham.

...Seriously, what the fuck? If inherent bonuses are houseruled to actually stack, and it's not a Tome game the Tome is useful, but that's about it.

[TOZ]

They have a new version of the Magus up for playtesting.

Link.

[Roy]

They have a new version of the Magus up for playtesting.

Link.

Hm. It still sucks a barrel of cocks. I think they actually made it worse. Seriously, how the fuck do you manage that?

...Oh right, Paizils.

[Kaelik]

Several of those items are very good. A +3 Greatsword sells for nine thousand gold, and if you're less than 12th level it is worth way more than that to the party. Not vendor trash. A +4 Steel Shield is ideal equipment for any divine caster who is not a Druid, and a fair number of other characters as well. It sells for 8000 gold, and even at 14th level it would be replaced by a Pearl of Power III - and that sells for 9000 gold. That isn't vendor trash either.

A bunch of those other items would be useful for a bit before being sold. I mean, a +4 Shocking Energy Mace is lame, but only for its cost. It's still probably better than any item you own. The Rogue would have some god fun with it before you turned it in to the museum for your reward. But yeah, of those sticks, only the Wand of Major Image is good, and that's because it makes a spell that essentially doesn't allow saves. The Staff of Frost can do good work making walls of ice, but it costs way too much for that to be a good use of your time - you're better off vendoring it and buying a ring of blink.

-Username17

Frank, as I understand it, that's a rolled list of items available for purchase by the PCs at market prices.

I can't see myself ever buying any of those things with my hard earned gp.

Random drops, sure, but not spending money.

[Roy]

Actually, it was just randomly rolled Major items. How you get them (item shop, drops, whatever) was left ambiguous. The point is the same though - you don't buy them, and if you get them for free you sell them in exchange for things you actually care about with very few exceptions.

20 random Majors and only a very small number were useful at all.

[ubernoob]

They have a new version of the Magus up for playtesting.

Link.

So, medium BAB swift action limited uses per day ability to add int to attack rolls for a round, and...

How the fuck is this class supposed to actually hit things? And once it hits things, how is it supposed to actually deal meaningful damage? Are you seriously supposed to try and add flaming burst or whatever on your weapon and full attack with that and then cast defensively to do shocking touch or whatever?

This class sucks.

[Orion]

Roy, you're missing the point. When you say "a mace has no purpose except against undead" what you *mean* is that a mace is less useful than a longsword against most opponents. But here's the thing -- It's less useful by a margin of 1 damage point. And 5% crit.

Being +4, especially if your party is level 11 and only gets GMW +2, makes up for the difference in effectiveness between the mace and that longsword you were using.

[Roy]

Roy, you're missing the point. When you say "a mace has no purpose except against undead" what you *mean* is that a mace is less useful than a longsword against most opponents. But here's the thing -- It's less useful by a margin of 1 damage point. And 5% crit.

Being +4, especially if your party is level 11 and only gets GMW +2, makes up for the difference in effectiveness between the mace and that longsword you were using.

If you want to argue along those lines, it's a one handed weapon. With no reach. I don't care if it's the second coming of Jesus Fucking Christ, that means it sucks a barrel of cocks.

Like that Magus class? It gets limited to one handed weapons. Because they suck harder than a thirsty fat woman.

[Slade]

They have a new version of the Magus up for playtesting.

Link.

So, medium BAB swift action limited uses per day ability to add int to attack rolls for a round, and...

How the fuck is this class supposed to actually hit things? And once it hits things, how is it supposed to actually deal meaningful damage? Are you seriously supposed to try and add flaming burst or whatever on your weapon and full attack with that and then cast defensively to do shocking touch or whatever?

This class sucks.

It also loss the stupid penalty to Concentration to for Spell combat (which requires Concentration to succeed to work). I think the designers are learning (or guessing better at ideas).

They can make their weapon +1 higher in enhancement at 1st level: note it stacks with the weapons enhancement bonus (as a swift action for 1 minute). So it stacks with Greater Magic Weapon I guess.

Spellstrike is now exactly like Duskblades Arcane Channel instead of doing nothing in the old version (it just let you hold touch spell in weapon but wasting a round). So they learned a benefit is better than nothing.

At 3rd level, they can use up Arcane pool points to do that Int to hit thing. But it seems better to make weapon higher enhancement since that last longer.

They still didn't clear up Broad study. Looks like a copy paste. Likely there will be the return of "I can cast another class's spells topics". It should say a class you have because otherwise it makes people think you can steal other classes spells.

Now they can use Ranged touch spells as a melee touch (combine with Spellstrike).
Concentrate still sucks (1/day?).

They added a few touch spells, but still lacking a little.

[Lago PARANOIA]

1/min a level is just a lazy duration wanked to by lazy people. It puts all of the onus on balancing on the DM--you don't have to worry about an effect being unbalanced because it's all day/avoids an action tax without having the problem of 1/round level duration spells (which people never use) because 1/min a level can mean lots of thing! Why, it can be just as useful as a 1/rnd level effect or it can be just as useful as a 10/min level one! It depends on how the DM runs his game. So if the effect is over/underpowered, it's the DM's fault for running the game incorrectly, not the designer!


As much shit as I give 4E, I at least have to give them credit for ditching that retarded 1/min level duration bullshit; PF seems to be taking the most hated duration in the game and running with it. This makes 4E a marginally better game than Pathfinder. Is anyone really surprised?

Bunch of stupid shitbags. I'm praying that 5E is the biggest success ever so both teams of dumbasses can have their projects blow right up in their ignorant fucking faces.

[JonSetanta]

They have a new version of the Magus up for playtesting.

Link.

Again?? Jebus.

[hogarth]

As much shit as I give 4E, I at least have to give them credit for ditching that retarded 1/min level duration bullshit; PF seems to be taking the most hated duration in the game and running with it. This makes 4E a marginally better game than Pathfinder. Is anyone really surprised?

Whatever. 1 min/level or 1 round/level or 1 encounter -- it's all the same.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I don't mind the 1 round/level or 1 encounter duration timestamps.

I hate the 1 min/level duration because the effectiveness of a spell, especially at higher levels, is dependent on how a DM constructs the workday and adventure. So a spell may be good for 2-3 encounters or just one--which makes said 1 min/level spell either overpowered or underpowered. Meaning that the game designer has less incentive to make sure that an effect is balanced because of the non-standard duration they can't be blamed for a bupkiss effect.

Contrast the 1 round/lvl or the 10 min or 1 hr/level spells. It's much easier to judge the average effect of these spells so the game designer can't blame the players for 'playing it rong' if they're fucked up.

[JonSetanta]

Alternate Spell Durations

Code: Select all

Concentration      -> same
1 round/level      -> requires Swift actions of recipient to maintain
1 minute/level     -> requires Swift actions of recipient to maintain
10 minutes/level   -> until Sleep of recipient
1 hour/level       -> until Sleep of recipient
1 day (24 hours)   -> until Sleep of recipient
Permanent          -> until Death of recipient

[TOZ]

People are hemming and hawing over the Pool Spell ability, and how at 19th level the Magus can spontaneously cast any 9th level wizard spell from it. Since you have half your level + Int mod in points, and it costs one point per spell level, you can do this once, maybe twice per day.

They think this is too much.

[Roy]

People are hemming and hawing over the Pool Spell ability, and how at 19th level the Magus can spontaneously cast any 9th level wizard spell from it. Since you have half your level + Int mod in points, and it costs one point per spell level, you can do this once, maybe twice per day.

They think this is too much.

Paizils, again.

Apparently it was lost on them that the last time, the best thing you can do with a Magus is run them as a gimpy Wizard and that hasn't changed.

And yeah, minute/level durations suck. Either you can just blitz the dungeon and it's useful, or you can't and it's not.

[Juton]

People are hemming and hawing over the Pool Spell ability, and how at 19th level the Magus can spontaneously cast any 9th level wizard spell from it. Since you have half your level + Int mod in points, and it costs one point per spell level, you can do this once, maybe twice per day.

They think this is too much.

Well it is. 9th level Wizard spells are the most powerful things short of epic. If you have an expectation that a class is going to be doing like 100 damage a round at high levels, and being pleased with that, giving it the ability to stop time or gate in monsters or any of the other things a Wizard does is going to be disconcerting.

If they where more intellectually honest they'd realize that the problem lies in that a class has access to any of those spells at all. They'd then require Pathfinder to actually fucking fix part of 3.5, and we can't be having that shit.

[Roy]

But juton! Pathfinder isn't Caster Edition, even though it's done nothing but buff spellcasting classes, and done nothing but nerf everyone else! The Fighter will be just fine flailing for piddly shit in the same party! Really, it's that easy. All you have to do is put Fighter on your character sheet, and everything will attack you, and all of those attacks will miss, and then you can say you were tanking and thus useful! Because as we all know, if anything hits the Wizard his 250 HP are gone just like that so he needs you there.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Alternate Spell Durations

Code: Select all

Concentration      -> same
1 round/level      -> requires Swift actions of recipient to maintain
1 minute/level     -> requires Swift actions of recipient to maintain
10 minutes/level   -> until Sleep of recipient
1 hour/level       -> until Sleep of recipient
1 day (24 hours)   -> until Sleep of recipient
Permanent          -> until Death of recipient

The joke is on you, because I never sleep.

I do agree that level-based durations are absolutely retarded. Some creatures, however, don't have to sleep. Watch the ghoul cleric spend a few days casting every 10 minutes/level or greater duration spell on herself and then never having to spend slots on buffs again.

I actually think that 4e did pretty well with the idea of short rests and extended rests. There are a bunch of reasonable durations out there aren't directly level based.

Code: Select all

Easy mode:
 1 round
 Swift action to maintain
 Move action to maintain
 Standard action to maintain
 Full-round action to maintain
 Until the target takes a short rest
 Until the caster takes a short rest (or is knocked out or worse)
 Permanent (usually until some condition is met)

Hard mode:
 2 rounds, 3 rounds, ...
 Until the target takes an extended rest <-- Does not work with characters who don't need extended rest
 Until the caster takes an extended rest &#40;or dies&#41; <-- Does not work with characters who don't need extended rest
 Until sunset, midnight, sunrise, or midday <-- Problematic when you have trouble keeping time

Nightmare mode&#58;
 Until a successful saving throw <-- Lots of rolls; has the advantage of scaling to level of caster _and_ target

[Kaelik]

My favorite duration system is the one where you have a thing that you take up in keeping the spells active, and the spell stays as long as the thing is taken up, and goes away when the thing is no longer taken up. The thing could be a spell slot, or it could be a number of mana.

Course, never seen it work up to snuff in D&D, and even my half hearted attempt is only medicore.