previous editions had options available for class customisation.
AD&D had your dual classing and multi-classing.
2nd edition introduced rules for making new classes in the DMG. Kits provided another customisation tool. Later, the Players Option series introduced another method of customization with build points.
3rd edition used another method of multiclassing, but introduced feats, prestige classes, alternate class features, monster races and templates. It does not seem like much, but the options available in character design were staggering.
4e stripped back multiclassing. Brought in hybrid classes, which was fairly novel. Had paragon paths and epic destinies, which are also fairly novel character customisation tools.
I do not think that stripping back options would be the way to push a new edition forward. The progression of editions shows that with each new version of the game, new tools for developing a character were incorperated. Some worked better than others. Others worked only to highlight some of the flaws in the mechanics of the system.
I think a new edition needs to have some amazing tools for character design. 4 basic class types is simply not enough...Especially when only 2 of those types are worth playing for any length of time.
If you were designing 5E...
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That being said, Magic design has also repeatedly stressed that you should try to remain consistent about your schools of magic; which should also attempt to have strong thematic roots. This is why they have Angels in White and Vampires in Black, even if it's "evil" Angels serving an evil White Planeswalker.FrankTrollman wrote:Absolutely not. King's Bounty has three categories of magic: Order, Chaos, and Distortion. Summoning a giant flaming bird is "Order", but summoning a giant flaming bone dragon is "Chaos". That works fine. Magic the Gathering has schools of magic that are "Red, White, Green, Blue, and Black" - that works fine too. Heroes of Might and Magic has things arbitrarily lumped into four "elements" where "Raise Dead" is earth and "Blind" is fire. People have absolutely no problems figuring out what completely arbitrary collections of magical powers are about. You're writing the fucking magic system, whatever you say goes. If healing is Water, it's in Water. If healing is in Earth or Fire or Air instead, so be it.
While overlaps may not be avoidable (i.e. White and Black both have gain life spells), make sure that their implementation remains consistent to an overall theme (White is healing magic - so it's just straight up healing, while Black is life drain - where you need to hurt an enemy to gain life).
If they do something that's no consistent with its existing theme, it's usually a one-off thing.
HOMM and King's Bounty is honestly a bit wonky with its consistency - as their magic is all over the place. But given that both games focus on learning individual spells as opposed to learning schools, I don't think they really thought their schools out in the first place.
Last edited by Zinegata on Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OgreBattle
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Hand over 5e development to WotC's M:tG designers
They already have a great understanding of what appeals to different kinds of players and release sets where most of the time everyone finds something to be satisfied about.
Flavor, gameplay, various playstyles, distinct identities and interesting world settings are all there.
Whatever they create, I'll be interested in checking out.
They already have a great understanding of what appeals to different kinds of players and release sets where most of the time everyone finds something to be satisfied about.
Flavor, gameplay, various playstyles, distinct identities and interesting world settings are all there.
Whatever they create, I'll be interested in checking out.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Variously good ideas here, Frank's mention about color scheme, and picking from that list to qualify into your title/class sounds rather promising. Otherwise, just gonna try to throw together my thoughts of what I'd do for the next edition.
First off, would most likely have 20 levels, but would define them in the following Power level grades as per the link from my sig below: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... ople.?pg=1
(21st+ would be supplement for a later book, once gotten all the other stuff situated, can go super over the over the top, excessively superman to the EXTREME! style from there.)
Ability Scores: Probably do away with attributes all together, so none of the famous 6 there, and let skills, class ability, perhaps race to a degree, help represent stuff like "super strength", like being a giant gives greater carrying capacity, or that famous ability where DM warns a PC of something nonsensical, for "common sense" that RPG's like to have for some reason.
Races: Thus, with the relic of attributes gone, don't really need to say how ones Race won't give "attribute bonuses". Instead Races just provide nifty abilities, like maybe water breathing/swimming speed for being a sharkman/lizardman, or a mild stone gaze for being a medusa. Which yes, want a myriad of races available for play out of the gate, than just core. So people can play their Dwarves, Centaurs, Medusa's, Naga, and whatever. So Races just give you cool stuff, and open to playing any class, than be locked in tired tropes. After all, some people want to be an Orc that's a wizard, without the RNG hating them every step of the way.
Although even if attributes were still there, wouldn't have that anyway, if needed in the game, give universal bonus/penalty as needed, of players choice to put for their character. So if your game has +2/-2, instead locked specifically, player chooses where they go, similar if just want random +2 somewhere, or +2/+2, etc. Otherwise, sounds like if the players want bigger attributes, just give them a more powerful point buy, which the game should also be able to account for with alternate DC's, or warnings otherwise as needed.
Skills: Oh, and hell yeah for Skills being condensed, possibly down to 13 or so, maybe even doing something like line of Shadowrun's Knowledge skills, where Craft/Profession/Perform would go, and PC's would get free points for those. Of course, even as background/flavor skills, still have their functions in the game world. Profession for example, would unlikely to be used for checks in determining income, just get it for working X amount of time. Further ranks, might expand the power of your business, where be a lawyer for a small firm, moving to continental, to Planar, all the way up to being like some divine Phoenix Wright for the gods themselves, presiding in cases in for Hades at Olympus itself. So yeah, skills would do level appropriate things throughout all the levels of play, so them being "superpowers" I'm totally fine and cool with.
Health: Heavily Consider using CAN, if not, perhaps go with VP/WP plus, DT system, as Seerow has suggested. Albeit bit more updated one he has suggested, being non-fractional, but instead take 1 WP when take damage over DT, and additional WP per each 10pts the damage exceeded your DT threshold (example: 25DT, take 45 damage, would suffer 2 additional WP for going 20pts over, losing 3 WP total).
Healing Surges sounds like it can be promising, if properly monitored throughout all levels of play. Otherwise consider just at Full HP at end of a battle, albeit can complicate situations, where might want random traps as journeying along that randomly injure a PC. Although considering in 3rd edition, people just used Vigor/cure light wounds, wands, to be at full HP at all times anyway, I suppose it works.
Weapons/Armor: Are now categorized, instead of caring if your one handed weapon is a battleaxe, or scimitar specifically, but the fighting style it entails, or if your armor is lamellar, banded, or leather and chainshirt. Instead, for weapons, have something like: One-handed, Two-handed, light weapons, Polearms, Double weapons, Two weapons, and unarmed. While armor simply just be stats for Light/Medium/Heavy version of armor respectively, and players can just flavor their stuff in between those categories. Where their one-handed weapon is maybe a sabre/flail/longsword, or Heavy armor is field plate, Lamellar etc. After all, got down to it, people only used specific weapons, and we know that well with Chainshirt =light, Breastplate = Medium, and Field plate for Heavy, with armor. If practical, probably have some benefits for specific materials, or way weapon was made (such as "hooked" giving benefits to trip, thanks to weapons curve, prongs it has, or even because it's like a flexible weapon).
Magic Items: Definitely wouldn't want them providing arbitrary +x bonuses, so gone the days Ring of jumping giving +10 to jump checks, instead ensure items have fun/cool effects. Or rather, that bonus doesn't stack, but replaces your check modifier in that skill. So maybe that Ring of Jumping, counts as you having 10 ranks, or +10 modifier, regardless what it was originally (so that dwarf with like -2 to Jumping total, now counts as having an unchanging +10/10 ranks in Athletics for purpose of jump checks).
Somewhat how 4th edition had "big 3 of items" think have it where Weapons & Armor, are generally legendary super weapons of their kind, and might not change much in hands of PC's, or otherwise get them from fallen foes/craft themselves/circumstances in the story. While stuff like Wondrous Items (at least) can totally be bought at various places, generally in a city or traveling merchant (maybe divine pc's go donating to a church, or prey to their god for stuff). Probably the similar for other stuff like Rings, and boots.
Also want to have non-magical items with viability to even the more higher level magic items as well. Might have options for higher level non-magical items to be products of a more advance age, like cannons, magic guns, up to stuff like Missile launchers and laser guns (hey, greyhawk had em, and putting them out there, but with an "optional" label, sounds good eh).
Classes: Normal deal of how Casters in 3rd edition way too powerful, so need to be toned down, and spells to have creative ways to be countered. Simple example, being one who closes their eyes to avoid the effect of Mirror Image spell, and try to seek out the "true" one by hearing them, using the force, etc. Also meaning Warrior types get an awesome boost, with superpowers as well, so your Fighter types will indeed be rocking "Super Strength", ways to counter flying creatures, like by simple action canceling ranged attacks, "Jump induced flight or Jump Good" to them, Super Speed and so forth.
Use Frank's Abstract location system of sorts, ensure to get that clearly written as possible, so all the easier to grasp, if/when needed.
I feel like lot of what I've said may've not been clear beforehand, so I do apologize in that regard, if it seems I'm leaving out something important. However, so far, this is what I've gotten on mind to mention over the past few days. Even if various ideas presented hear have been inspired from others over time, such as Caedrus even.
Oh, and myself aside, if were to divert it to someone else, I would vote for The Gaming Den, as they would do a "open playtest" of the game true Justice. Instead, the guys managing Magic: The Gathering, as been suggested by Frank and many others, they know what they're doing. Thus, although I don't play that card game, I think I would be interested to see the direction of where they would take D&D at that point.
First off, would most likely have 20 levels, but would define them in the following Power level grades as per the link from my sig below: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... ople.?pg=1
(21st+ would be supplement for a later book, once gotten all the other stuff situated, can go super over the over the top, excessively superman to the EXTREME! style from there.)
Ability Scores: Probably do away with attributes all together, so none of the famous 6 there, and let skills, class ability, perhaps race to a degree, help represent stuff like "super strength", like being a giant gives greater carrying capacity, or that famous ability where DM warns a PC of something nonsensical, for "common sense" that RPG's like to have for some reason.
Races: Thus, with the relic of attributes gone, don't really need to say how ones Race won't give "attribute bonuses". Instead Races just provide nifty abilities, like maybe water breathing/swimming speed for being a sharkman/lizardman, or a mild stone gaze for being a medusa. Which yes, want a myriad of races available for play out of the gate, than just core. So people can play their Dwarves, Centaurs, Medusa's, Naga, and whatever. So Races just give you cool stuff, and open to playing any class, than be locked in tired tropes. After all, some people want to be an Orc that's a wizard, without the RNG hating them every step of the way.
Although even if attributes were still there, wouldn't have that anyway, if needed in the game, give universal bonus/penalty as needed, of players choice to put for their character. So if your game has +2/-2, instead locked specifically, player chooses where they go, similar if just want random +2 somewhere, or +2/+2, etc. Otherwise, sounds like if the players want bigger attributes, just give them a more powerful point buy, which the game should also be able to account for with alternate DC's, or warnings otherwise as needed.
Skills: Oh, and hell yeah for Skills being condensed, possibly down to 13 or so, maybe even doing something like line of Shadowrun's Knowledge skills, where Craft/Profession/Perform would go, and PC's would get free points for those. Of course, even as background/flavor skills, still have their functions in the game world. Profession for example, would unlikely to be used for checks in determining income, just get it for working X amount of time. Further ranks, might expand the power of your business, where be a lawyer for a small firm, moving to continental, to Planar, all the way up to being like some divine Phoenix Wright for the gods themselves, presiding in cases in for Hades at Olympus itself. So yeah, skills would do level appropriate things throughout all the levels of play, so them being "superpowers" I'm totally fine and cool with.
Health: Heavily Consider using CAN, if not, perhaps go with VP/WP plus, DT system, as Seerow has suggested. Albeit bit more updated one he has suggested, being non-fractional, but instead take 1 WP when take damage over DT, and additional WP per each 10pts the damage exceeded your DT threshold (example: 25DT, take 45 damage, would suffer 2 additional WP for going 20pts over, losing 3 WP total).
Healing Surges sounds like it can be promising, if properly monitored throughout all levels of play. Otherwise consider just at Full HP at end of a battle, albeit can complicate situations, where might want random traps as journeying along that randomly injure a PC. Although considering in 3rd edition, people just used Vigor/cure light wounds, wands, to be at full HP at all times anyway, I suppose it works.
Weapons/Armor: Are now categorized, instead of caring if your one handed weapon is a battleaxe, or scimitar specifically, but the fighting style it entails, or if your armor is lamellar, banded, or leather and chainshirt. Instead, for weapons, have something like: One-handed, Two-handed, light weapons, Polearms, Double weapons, Two weapons, and unarmed. While armor simply just be stats for Light/Medium/Heavy version of armor respectively, and players can just flavor their stuff in between those categories. Where their one-handed weapon is maybe a sabre/flail/longsword, or Heavy armor is field plate, Lamellar etc. After all, got down to it, people only used specific weapons, and we know that well with Chainshirt =light, Breastplate = Medium, and Field plate for Heavy, with armor. If practical, probably have some benefits for specific materials, or way weapon was made (such as "hooked" giving benefits to trip, thanks to weapons curve, prongs it has, or even because it's like a flexible weapon).
Magic Items: Definitely wouldn't want them providing arbitrary +x bonuses, so gone the days Ring of jumping giving +10 to jump checks, instead ensure items have fun/cool effects. Or rather, that bonus doesn't stack, but replaces your check modifier in that skill. So maybe that Ring of Jumping, counts as you having 10 ranks, or +10 modifier, regardless what it was originally (so that dwarf with like -2 to Jumping total, now counts as having an unchanging +10/10 ranks in Athletics for purpose of jump checks).
Somewhat how 4th edition had "big 3 of items" think have it where Weapons & Armor, are generally legendary super weapons of their kind, and might not change much in hands of PC's, or otherwise get them from fallen foes/craft themselves/circumstances in the story. While stuff like Wondrous Items (at least) can totally be bought at various places, generally in a city or traveling merchant (maybe divine pc's go donating to a church, or prey to their god for stuff). Probably the similar for other stuff like Rings, and boots.
Also want to have non-magical items with viability to even the more higher level magic items as well. Might have options for higher level non-magical items to be products of a more advance age, like cannons, magic guns, up to stuff like Missile launchers and laser guns (hey, greyhawk had em, and putting them out there, but with an "optional" label, sounds good eh).
Classes: Normal deal of how Casters in 3rd edition way too powerful, so need to be toned down, and spells to have creative ways to be countered. Simple example, being one who closes their eyes to avoid the effect of Mirror Image spell, and try to seek out the "true" one by hearing them, using the force, etc. Also meaning Warrior types get an awesome boost, with superpowers as well, so your Fighter types will indeed be rocking "Super Strength", ways to counter flying creatures, like by simple action canceling ranged attacks, "Jump induced flight or Jump Good" to them, Super Speed and so forth.
Use Frank's Abstract location system of sorts, ensure to get that clearly written as possible, so all the easier to grasp, if/when needed.
I feel like lot of what I've said may've not been clear beforehand, so I do apologize in that regard, if it seems I'm leaving out something important. However, so far, this is what I've gotten on mind to mention over the past few days. Even if various ideas presented hear have been inspired from others over time, such as Caedrus even.
Oh, and myself aside, if were to divert it to someone else, I would vote for The Gaming Den, as they would do a "open playtest" of the game true Justice. Instead, the guys managing Magic: The Gathering, as been suggested by Frank and many others, they know what they're doing. Thus, although I don't play that card game, I think I would be interested to see the direction of where they would take D&D at that point.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History