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That makes both of us, but apparently the last link I saw was in 4chan and some of the "fanboys" had the files put down.ModelCitizen wrote:This would be so much easier if someone could just link the damn playtest pdf, but I can't find it and it looks like it's not supposed to be fully public.
The way I'm reading the whole thing amounts to icons being very "large" NPCs that yes, are "in charge" of their domains. However, they are usually dealing with their own troubles AND they can readily serve as plot hooks, given how with they send armies, politicians, apprentices and other people in their stead.Whipstitch wrote:It's all in the execution and the only thing that really worries me about it is that "Icon" and "Lich King" makes it sound like these NPCs are in fact quite large and in charge.
I believe that the One Unique Thing, Motivation and Relationship Dice are both unique non-combat plot hook devices determined by the player and approved the DM, so as to avoid somebody writing abilities that overshadow everyone else (including the DM). That takes a lot of inter-group trust though... especially trust that the DM won't favor a particular player over another.Whipstitch wrote:Personally, I don't mind things like assets and enemies 'n' shit as long as they're not being used as currency for big-time asymmetric power. For example, I'm really glad Resources & Obligations are capped at rating 3 in the standard After Sundown character generation guidelines. It's hard to judge the relative value of a magic mirror vs not being enemies with local vice squad but ultimately it's a fairly small-time exchange and people can get over it pretty easy if Don Johnson rarely shows up or the mirror doesn't end up being particularly useful for for most of the campaign. The rewards of letting people pick some unique utility or plot hooks greatly outweighs the potential risks. By contrast, if someone could write Aladdin's lamp and Iblis as a Destiny and Enemy respectively shit can get real pretty quickly because those things can dictate enough that it may not really matter what anyone else wrote down anymore.
That is called Oberoni Fallacy.chaosfang wrote:Still, I have no reason to believe that a simple words on a pages would stop any DM from placing *any* stats on Icons.
...Elennsar?hyzmarca wrote:Low level PCs fighting high level NPCs can be fun, providing that there's a way that the low level characters can actually win baring Deus ex Machina. Everybody loves an underdog story.
Slaughtering the gods is not an accomplishment if you already have godlike power yourself. Slaughtering the gods when you're vastly outmatch, on the other hand, is worthy of respect and can potentially be very fun.
It really isn't. Oberoni is "The rules aren't flawed, because I can change them;" this is "lack of hand-holding doesn't mean I have to be stupid."Starmaker wrote:That is called Oberoni Fallacy.chaosfang wrote:Still, I have no reason to believe that a simple words on a pages would stop any DM from placing *any* stats on Icons.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
...which seems to conflict with your assertions. Your conflicting source is a notation on a character sheet?Instead, each PC allocates points to icon relationships. This doesn't mean the PC knows the icon personally (although that could be true, if it fits the background). Rather, it represents a relationship the PC has with the icon's larger organization. The PC could be a member, or he could just be able to call in some favors. It could also be that the relationship is antagonistic, and that the points represent a high level of "know thy enemy".
when you open debate by linking to something that saysFrankTrollman wrote:13th Age comes right and says that these assholes know your character personally and fuck with your character in person
?This doesn't mean the PC knows the icon personally (although that could be true, if it fits the background). Rather, it represents a relationship the PC has with the icon's larger organization.
You're simply wrong. If gnome player decided that his/her PC knows an Icon personally, that's a choice made by the player and not the system. Nothing in the rules states the Icons know you personally, or even know your name.FrankTrollman wrote: But for the last fucking time, that's not the 13th Age herpaderp. 13th Age comes right and says that these assholes know your character personally and fuck with your character in person. We know this because it's on the Gnome character sheet in black and white. Stop your retarded apologetics about unknown unknowns, this is a fucking known quantity.
Playtesters might report that, but it's not in the rules text. Several of the icons don't even appear to have powers or martial skill. There are many (often good) reasons for the icons not to have stats, and "so powerful they don't have stats" is not the best, or even most likely, reason.FrankTrollman wrote: As for them being "so powerful they don't have stats", that is straight up exactly what several of the playtest reports say about them. So there's that.
The rules quite clearly state that the game is about the PCs being fucking awesome heroes. The world has been shaped and flavored by the Icons, and up until the point that the PCs stepped up the story was about the Icons. Sounds familiar, yeah? That's because it's the same for every fantasy story, ever.FrankTrollman wrote: Yes, you could do something different that wasn't about having unkillable big penis NPCs sticking their dick in your cheerios. But that is not what 13th Age did. They did the thing where every character gets to listen to the DM fap about Harlequin making sweet man love to Elminster from first level on.
Perhaps, but the other character sheets say that your character is going to kill them, replace them, join them, or some combination of the three.FrankTrollman wrote:Fucking fuck!
Yes, we all know that having high level NPCs in the world who are nebulously against you is fine. It's even good, because it gives the world some verisimilitude when you get higher level and need level appropriate opposition. We also all agree that not bothering to stat up enemies (yet) who aren't going to show up for five or more sessions is a totally reasonable use of your time.
But for the last fucking time, that's not the 13th Age herpaderp. 13th Age comes right and says that these assholes know your character personally and fuck with your character in person. We know this because it's on the Gnome character sheet in black and white. Stop your retarded apologetics about unknown unknowns, this is a fucking known quantity.
And... no. LotR's back story isn't Gandalf's Story. Wheel of Endlessness doesn't give a rats ass about the Queen of Whichever Fucking City, Pre-Conan doesn't go on at length about Thulsa Doom's teenage years and no one gives two shits about how Palpatine became a Senator.Reg06 wrote: The rules quite clearly state that the game is about the PCs being fucking awesome heroes. The world has been shaped and flavored by the Icons, and up until the point that the PCs stepped up the story was about the Icons. Sounds familiar, yeah? That's because it's the same for every fantasy story, ever.
LotR absolutely is. Everytime the fellowship goes somewhere and the NPCs go "oh shit, it's Gandalf/Strider", or the entire backstory explaining the evil Icons Sauron and Saruman. The story isn't about them, but when the heroes who the story is about encounter those Icons the DM gives some plot details about how those Icons influenced the game before the new heroes showed up.Voss wrote: And... no. LotR's back story isn't Gandalf's Story. Wheel of Endlessness doesn't give a rats ass about the Queen of Whichever Fucking City, Pre-Conan doesn't go on at length about Thulsa Doom's teenage years and no one gives two shits about how Palpatine became a Senator.
It's exactly like that. Only the DM/author rarely tells the story of the Icons, it's just left to plot and setting details. It is assumed that if the DM were to run a campaign set before the current one, or if the author were to write a prequel, then the current Icons would be the heroes of that story. Darth Vader was an Icon in the original trilogy, and then became the protagonist during the prequel.Voss wrote: Major NPCs/antagonists/powerful background characters are part of the setting, but at no point was the story about them, unless the author is pulling shit out of his ass to polish up and sell to idiots.
If the pregens aren't good, or the rules don't function as intended, that's another issue. What is true is that 13th Age is supposed to be about your PCs doing awesome, sometimes over the top heroic deeds. For my money, as a person who has actually read the rules and played the game (multiple times), it might succeed.Voss wrote: On an unrelated note, with the watered down 4e powers, I'd like to know where the 'fucking awesome heroes' bit kicks in. The pregens one note descriptions -used to be a bird, an asshole made you functional immortal so she can specifically fuck with you (which rather explicitly counters your point), as lame, trite, cliche and disempowering as they are, they are far more interesting than anything the PCs can actually do. Reroll damage specifically _isn't_ awesome, even if the weapon is called an 'awesome warhammer'
It's funny you bring up Star Wars when it's actually the perfect example of what Reg was trying to say.Voss wrote:Major NPCs/antagonists/powerful background characters are part of the setting, but at no point was the story about them
First, currently being in a 4th edition game, if the ideas of this game are sound, I might just recommend them to my friend/DM. Now the above idea about 10th level characters is interesting to say the least, given RPG history, unlikely they'll capture that concept.lessthanpleased wrote: 13th Age PCs are powerful. 10th Level 13th Age PCs are going to be world-shatteringly awesome - and replacing/dethroning/deposing an Icon seems to me to be as natural an end-game as anything else. It's certainly what one of my two 13th Age campaigns is about.
I have to say that, despite my love for 4e, 13th Age is rapidly becoming my go-to RPG. One of my 4e players who always had a hard time with 4e (because the narrative never really matched up with what he wanted to happen to his character) is loving 13th Age because it allows him more ways to impact the shared story than his skills outside of combat and his attack rolls in combat; another member of my group is a 21 year old woman who has never played a TTRPG before in her life, and (even playing a complex caster) has taken to roleplaying much, much quicker than anyone else I've introduced to the hobby. Although I loved 4e because of it's freeform rules outside of combat, 13th Age's Icon mechanics allows even an inexperienced player rules whereby they can make the campaign about what they think is cool (and thus keep wanting to play the game!).
Uh... every member of the original Team Avatar is dead, except Katara. And she is an old lady who doesn't participate in adventures or politics at all anymore because she is extremely retired. That is the opposite of an "Icon" - those characters existed, but for one reason or another now don't do anything to anyone.Wrathzog wrote: Alternatively, we can use Legend of Korra, where most of the Aang Gang could be used as Icons in the new series.
Yeah, you're right. I keep thinking that Icons are supposed to be more abstract for some reason. Hurmph. Even then it still doesn't make sense... the hell was I thinking...FrankTrollman wrote:Uh... every member of the original Team Avatar is dead, except Katara. And she is an old lady who doesn't participate in adventures or politics at all anymore because she is extremely retired. That is the opposite of an "Icon" - those characters existed, but for one reason or another now don't do anything to anyone.Wrathzog wrote: Alternatively, we can use Legend of Korra, where most of the Aang Gang could be used as Icons in the new series.
-Username17
Darth Vader fights named characters on camera in every movie. Hell, he is beaten in spaceship fighter battles in the very first movie. He is not an unbeatable, unstatted character. So he's not an Icon. He has stats. He can go directly against the PCs and lose, and he does.Wrathzog wrote: I'll stick with my star wars example.
