League Of Losers

[Surgo]

Soraka jungle? Wow.

No, Soraka support.

The problem with Corki afaik is basically just his obscene mana costs early and mid-game. You either have to be really conscientious when trading and poking (difficult against aggressive chamions like cait) or build a manamune/triforce early, which is gonna significantly push back your damage output. Also, his passive was much better before the current League Of Warmogs.

The problem with Corki is that his passive ate a tremendous nerf back in S2 when he was seen in almost every game (it used to crit), as well as his missiles eating a nerf (the specifics of which I cannot recall). His mana costs were the same back then, and they weren't a huge deal. You run 21/0/9 instead of 21/9/0 and use your Q wisely.

[Surgo]

Kaelik, I realize that reading comprehension is really really difficult for you, but it's something you're going to have to learn if you ever want to have a meaningful conversation in this thread.

If someone else says that Caitlyn has the lowest output of ADC carries

Nobody said that, you fucking buffoon.

agreeing that she has the lowest output of the ADC carries but saying that still makes her better than every other non ADC carry champ is fucking retarded.

And I didn't say that. Really, take five seconds and read what you're responding to before you respond to it. It's not hard. It'll also make you a more intelligent person.

It is even more retarded because it is literally the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, which is that Caitlyn has a higher output than many ADC carries.

...and that's not even what I was saying, or was trying to say, or any combination thereof. You're just getting silly now in addition to stupid.

If you cannot do the bare minimum of actually reading the posts, I'm not even going to bother attempting to engage you in conversation because literally nothing you say is going to have any value whatsoever.

[Kaelik]

If someone else says that Caitlyn has the lowest output of ADC carries

Nobody said that, you fucking buffoon.

You're right, they said second worst, this totally changes the point and makes Caitlyn the best instead of the second worst.

agreeing that she has the lowest output of the ADC carries but saying that still makes her better than every other non ADC carry champ is fucking retarded.

And I didn't say that. Really, take five seconds and read what you're responding to before you respond to it. It's not hard. It'll also make you a more intelligent person.

That is exactly what you fucking said. You said lowest damage of ADC is like poorest billionaire. You are explicitly stating that Caitlyn is a good character even though she is the worst at her role, because she is better at he role than people who don't play that role.

If you cannot do the bare minimum of actually reading the posts, I'm not even going to bother attempting to engage you in conversation because literally nothing you say is going to have any value whatsoever.

Fuck you, I understand that you want to pretend you didn't say Caitlyn is a viable character because she has a higher damage output than Shen, but that doesn't mean you didn't fucking say it.

[Korgan0]

Raw damage output isn't just what makes a good ADC, and that's the point that Surgo is trying to make. Ashe is excellent, despite probably having the lowest damage output, because she can exert global pressure and initiate with her ultimate, kite with her Q and her W, and farm well with her E. None of that directly translates into raw damage output, except possibly her E, but nevertheless they make her a good AD carry regardless of the DPS she can output.

Similarly, it's Caitlin's fantastic harass and sieging potential early and mid-game that make her a great adc despite her low damage output, as she can easily bully a more fragile ADC out of lane with her range, take an early tower, and roam. This allows for her team to get an early gold advantage, and ideally snowball that advantange into objectives and win the game. Keep in mind that Caitlin's damage deficit doesn't really rear its ugly head until mid-late game, when the superior steroids and scalings of champions like Kog'Maw and Vayne start to really kick in, so you should still be able to do well in dragon fights and early bot ganks and counter-ganks.

So, yes, you're wrong, and Surgo is right. Caitlyn has a low damage output for ADC's, which Surgo said. Her real strengths lie in other areas, which Surgo also said. But she still has a very high damage output relative to all other champions, which allows her to fill her role as ADC, which, shockingly, Surgo also said.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Kaelik: I said Caitlyn has the second lowest damage output of an ADC. The only ADC with lower damage output is Ashe (unless you factor in crit chance from focus, then Ashe is better for a certain number of autos depending on her itemization and where Cait's passive is at. In a best case scenario [mid game with a rushed IE and focus at 100%] Ashe is stronger than Cait until Cait procs her passive a fourth time).



Now, I'd still say Caitlyn is completely undeserving of nerfs because she was not viable before the meta shift and hitting her scaling (the most important thing an ADC does) is mean. She fell off late game before, now she's going to fall off even harder.

The only thing keeping her valuable is her starting 50-100 range on people, something that is more useful for crushing turrets in 2v1 lanes or weak 2v2 lanes than anything else. She's good in competitive play because she's an early-mid push/siege champion. They nerfed that...while also nerfing her questionable role in non-professional play (the League experience for most people) of "AD who tends to win lane then becomes less useful than the other AD in 35 minutes."

Because Caitlyn was good (not overpowered, just GOOD and picked often) in competitive play she got nerfed. I guess Riot really didn't like the early pushing meta, because that was the only thing Caitlyn was good at. I don't even play her all that much, I just preferred seeing her to other ADs.


Oh man, I completely forgot about Corki's passive critting. I still think people overreacted to those nerfs. He's got an 800 range escape that happens instantly, an armor shred, good poke (that becomes OK poke late), and 10% of basic attacks coming in as bonus true damage. Corki's problem isn't that he does too little damage, it's that people think they have to build triforce (the old Ezreal problem) instead of sitting on a sheen and ditching it later.

[Kaelik]

Raw damage output isn't just what makes a good ADC, and that's the point that Surgo is trying to make.

It doesn't matter if the point he is trying to make (and is now making) is correct or not. My point was that his stupid analogy was stupid. His stupid analogy that was stupid did not talk about how other things besides damage make a good ADC. He said she was the second poorest billionaire.

Money is a direct correlation to damage in this analogy. He said, "It doesn't matter that she has the second lowest damage of an ADC, because you has more damage than any non ADC, so therefore she is viable."

That was literally all he said. Certainly she does have range, and early siegeing. But the way you argue that is you say: "Even though she has the lowest damage, she has other things that help push her up." Not "doesn't matter if she has less damage because she still has more damage than non ADCs." which is what his analogy actually was.

So, yes, you're wrong, and Surgo is right.

Before you tell people that they are wrong, could you like, I don't know, figure out what the fuck the conversation is about.

Because the only thing I have been saying is that Surgo's analogy about billionaires is stupid. I have no opinion on the viability or awesomeness of Caitlyn, or at least, not one I have expressed. So when you tell me that I am wrong and Surgo is right the only thing that wouldn't be a strawman is if you specifically thought the analogy:

"Second lowest ADC damage output = Second Poorest Billionaire" was a great analogy.

[Korgan0]

And that analogy works just fine, because what's being assumed, given the context, is that what you need to be an effective whatever is about a billion dollars, and anything beyond that is gravy, but that candidates can have other qualities that also make them good whatevers. So while Caitlyn doesn't have enough money, and she's close to not having enough money to compete, she brings enough other stuff to the table that she's viable. Having more damage than Shen is in fact exactly what is required to be a passable ADC, with the other components of their kit being what makes or breaks them, with damage being only one part of that kit.

This is a stupid fucking argument, anyways.

So I just bought Karthus, and I realized that literally every single mid-laner I play (Ryze, Anivia, Karthus) are basically just late-game carries who happen to build AP, and I'm interested in playing a mid-laner with more roaming/ganking potential mid-game, even at the price of late-game carry potential. A friend of mine plays AP Nidalee mid and does well, but does anyone have any suggestions?

[CapnTthePirateG]

Leblanc. Seriously. She dominates early lane and can roam the land slaying enemy squishies. I'm somewhat biased because she took me to 30, but she's very good if played correctly. Kassadin and Kha'zix can do this too.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

So I just bought Karthus, and I realized that literally every single mid-laner I play (Ryze, Anivia, Karthus) are basically just late-game carries who happen to build AP, and I'm interested in playing a mid-laner with more roaming/ganking potential mid-game, even at the price of late-game carry potential. A friend of mine plays AP Nidalee mid and does well, but does anyone have any suggestions?

Ahri is what you're looking for, Kassadin too if you want a melee farmer. I'd also say Gragas is a good choice, but he has a fairly steep learning curve so try him at your own risk.

Ahri is super safe though, so I really recommend her if you want a roaming AP. She's also good throughout the entire game, and can do anything well (waveclear, poke, split push, etc).

[Surgo]

Oh man, I completely forgot about Corki's passive critting. I still think people overreacted to those nerfs. He's got an 800 range escape that happens instantly, an armor shred, good poke (that becomes OK poke late), and 10% of basic attacks coming in as bonus true damage. Corki's problem isn't that he does too little damage, it's that people think they have to build triforce (the old Ezreal problem) instead of sitting on a sheen and ditching it later.

That armor shred really is his biggest problem, though. You are right in that he doesn't do "too little" damage -- theoretically, his damage is almost at Kog'maw levels, thanks to the armor shred. But that armor shred is pointlessly dangerous to use. Its range is smaller than your auto attacks and to get its full value you have to constantly be facing your target, which is the opposite of what you need to be doing if you're kiting away from the divers.

I'd be perfectly happy if they just made his passive crit again as an easy way of bringing his power back up, and leaving his armor shred as a high-risk high-reward move. But they could just make it a lot less dangerous to help the guy out as well. The last thing I'd want is for them to lower his mana costs.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

That armor shred really is his biggest problem, though. You are right in that he doesn't do "too little" damage -- theoretically, his damage is almost at Kog'maw levels, thanks to the armor shred. But that armor shred is pointlessly dangerous to use. Its range is smaller than your auto attacks and to get its full value you have to constantly be facing your target, which is the opposite of what you need to be doing if you're kiting away from the divers.

I'd be perfectly happy if they just made his passive crit again as an easy way of bringing his power back up, and leaving his armor shred as a high-risk high-reward move. But they could just make it a lot less dangerous to help the guy out as well. The last thing I'd want is for them to lower his mana costs.

Oh god I don't want OLD corki back. He's way too safe to do as much damage as he was doing, and he makes such good use of sheen I just can't stand him once he's gotten two items. I guess it's hard to balance a champion who can effectively proc sheen every 2 seconds in a fight and then gap-create further than Akali's ult.



I bought Fizz and was wondering how not to die after killing a carry in fights. I tried Zhonya's and it doesn't help. Then again, I might just need to get used to squishy assassins... or build less squishy.

[CapnTthePirateG]

As a guy who plays mainly squishy assassins...

You go into a teamfight after all the CC is spent. You are supposed to be able to use mobility to get in, kill, and GTFO. I haven't played fizz - mostly LB, Kassadin, and Kha'zix - but you should be able to use his dash to get in and get out once all the CC goes off.

[Surgo]

I think Pseudo Stupidity probably knows the basic theory, what with him being plat and all

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Getting plat was as easy as calling Taric and invading every game. That and gank heavy junglers, because people just don't ward right until late gold in most cases (ie. mid not starting with a ward against Nautilus). It still takes a while, but lower ELOs are a good time to win with a little bit of cheese and a lot of game sense.


I'm pretty bad at assassins, all the champs I play at a decent level are either ranged squishies or tanky initiators/CC bots. Or Vi, but Vi is tanky enough and has enough AoE that as long as I kill the person I'm initiating on my team will win the fight even if they manage to kill me.

I have no trouble in lane with Fizz because laning is pretty simple with every champion (especially a slippery one), it's just in fights I feel weak. Maybe that's just how assassins are. That or I overestimate the shark as an initiate and don't have the patience to wait in the wings for an opportunity.

Is building kind of tanky even an option on Fizz? I hate waiting for initiates if I can't poke.

[Korgan0]

I can see AP bruiser fizz being semi-viable, to be honest, although I'm not sure what you'll build.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Damnit, my PAIN TRAIN TO DIAMOND has ended after a 6 game ranked win streak. Lost two in a row, but it's time to get BACK ON THE RAILS!

Chugga chugga woo woo.

[...You Lost Me]

Fizz does OK tanky. You burst so hard that taking some of your AP and funneling it into HP is possible. I've seen my fair share of fizzmogs during he free weeks...

I wouldn't say that you could tank it up enough to make him an initiator. His cc is really lacking compared to real initiators, so building tanky is just good enough that you can dive it and blow all your abilities without dying.

[Surgo]

Sejuani is totally OP right now. I'm 95% sure she's going to get nerfed in the next patch.

[Korgan0]

I've heard her early clear is pretty slow, and that if she falls behind it's hard for her to get back up, despite being an uber-tanky cc monster.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I can see Fizz working as an on-hit bruiser, especially with the change coming to Witt's End (it will steal MR instead of grant MR). Though everyone is going to be Kayle once the change happens so I'm not looking forward to that...


Man, fuck Sejuani.
Sejuani is another champion who Riot looked at and said "Hm, we need more % health damage in this game. Let's do that. Let's do that all the time." She's getting her damage nerfed in the next patch for good reason. Mostly how hard she scales with her own health if I remember correctly.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Any thoughts on the Kha rework? It's not worse, just different.

So I'm not quite sure why they're doing it except to get rid of his wave clear abilities.

[...You Lost Me]

What's the change?

Also, I've been playing Nautilus support in normals recently and it's hilarious. People just don't know what to do against him so he stomps all over them. I get components for a philo stone first, then rush a giant's belt and then we're invincible.

[Surgo]

Nautilus support is way more viable since they buffed him a couple patches ago. Now it takes more than a stiff breeze to kill him!

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Naut support is solid against any all-in bot lane because he counter initiates better than anybody initiates and can initiate fights with his passive. He's absolute trash against poke unless they let you land hooks or start boots + pink to dominate your lane and rely on not getting ganked early.

Naut is one of the only champions who can play literally any lane and still be effective. Naut top is a fucking Singed counter if you're built for it. Naut mid is a pushbot who then roams like a motherfucker and does crazy damage with some AP and a Witt's End.

If they nerf him again I'll be so sad.

[Surgo]

I don't really understand Nautilus mid and Nautilus top. His ratios are pretty poor for his horrible cooldowns; he doesn't particularly need the kind of gold that a solo lane offers. Just not really sure why you'd take him there instead of the jungle pretty much ever; somebody else surely could make better use of the gold.